Ameiurus melas stop eating

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Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

Hi,
my Ameiurus melas don't eat since two weeks. He has normal, not hurt. It has in a 400 liters (105 gallons) with 2200 l/h to filter and with a carp and 2 oscar. I must add two bubblers because I see that they are to difficult to breathe.
I tried wafers, meat and others but he refuse to eat.
Why doesn't he eat ?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

What are your tests for ammonia and nitrite in ppm by a liquid test tube kit, not dip sticks?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

No, I didn't make tests because others fishes in this tank are normal and eat. It can just a catfish that it don't eat.
I can make a test for nitrite, I publish result tomorrow. But I don't have a test for ammonia.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Often local fish shops perform these tests for free.

When you have low persistent levels of these toxins, some fish may appear fine while others not at some point, sooner or later. Seeming well being of tank mates is not a good indicator for low levels.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

My test for nitrite is out of date. I can go to petshop for make the tests.
I don't know for this behaviour.
If the tests see that the ammonia is a low level, what should I do ?
Will a change of water suffice ? Which percentage to renewal ?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Again, please, don't rely on dipstick tests but use the liquid test tube ones.

This is just the first step in troubleshooting. Let's see what the tests show, while at it, measure nitrate and pH, if possible carbonate hardness and general hardness and TDS too. Meanwhile I'd increase aeration to make sure it is not low dissolved oxygen that causes discomfort to your fish.

Report water temp please too.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

My tests are out of date. So while waiting for me to receive the new, I have make tests in petshop:
pH: 7,2
NO2: 0,5
NO3: 25-50

I make others tests upon receipt.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

If we take these results at the face value, one thing would be obvious: your tank is not cycled, the beneficial bacteria are not coping with the bioload. Half a ppm of NO2 is pretty bad. NO2 attacks blood making it unable to carry oxygen, which is likely why your bullhead is having difficulty breathing. It won't be long until everyone is sick in that tank. If the 0.5 ppm NO2 persists for weeks, probably all fish will be dead in that time frame.

What you need to do is to add table salt to the water to detoxify the NO2 at the ratio of 100:1 versus NO2 concentration, so you need 50-100 ppm of table salt, while figuring out how to improve your biofiltration or decrease the bioload (take fish out, do better at cleaning and maintenance, improve diet - less feed but better quality, etc.).

One common area of vast improvement is increasing the aeration of the water going into your biofilter. If you double the oxygen concentration in that water, your biofiltration capacity might increase 10x.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

My tank is cycled since november.
In filters, I have many biological support and I don't find that the NO2 are bad.
Aside the salt, what solutions do I have ?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

If your test shows 0.5 ppm NO2, the tank is not cycled by definition. In a cycled tank both ammonia and nitrite readings are zero ppm at all times by a quality liquid test kit, such as API freshwater master kit. Whether the tank was cycled before is immaterial.

You probably have non-zero ammonia too.

At 1 ppm NO2, fish don't live over a week or two and certainly don't feed.

If you have plenty of biological media but you are underfiltered = uncycled, chances are, as I said, your oxygen levels are too low. Bacteria are living breathing organisms that need oxygen (and food) to live. You can have all the biomedia you can get but if the water passing over or through the media is oxygen depleted, you might not achieve proper nitrification = cycledness.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

I was wrong, the nitrite are to 0.05 mg/l. I forgot a 0.
I make a change of water yesterday and a cleaning of filters.
But no improvement.
The carp and two Astronotus ocellatus continue to eat except bullhead catfish.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

OK. Let's see the ammonia test result.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

Ok, I receive test monday.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

He don't eat but I find that this belly is inflate.
What do you think ?

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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Jools »

Eaten something like a heater suction cap or other plastic?

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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

I don't know.
if he has swallowed something, how can he help him?
If it is a constipation, can I use the castor oil or catappa leaf ?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Wow, a leucistic bullhead is mighty rare. I have never seen one.

It appears alright, at least not sickly and not thin at all. Sometimes fish fast for various reasons. I still maintain that we must make sure the basics are ok, like the ammonia test. Fish can decide to fast during certain seasons, when they migrate or court and spawn. Sometimes it can be a latent disease we have no clue about.

At his current state, if the water, ammonia, etc. checks out fine, the bullhead can fast for many months before mass loss starts to be visible.

Does its belly usually look like that? If not and like you said it has not eaten in 2.5 weeks, then it could be bloated, clogged or some such. To help the bowel movement my go-to medication is the good old Epsom salt. Can be added to the tank or given via short term bath.

But again, we don't know if this is the problem. If it swallowed an inedible object, which bullheads are not known for, chances are it will regurgitate sooner or later.

Might it steal the food from tank mates at night? Catfish can pester tank mates sometimes so they regurgitate food, which the catfish then consume.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

Ok. Wafers are eaten by carp and oscars in less one hour and the catfish went go to eat at the same time.
No plastic in my tank so it is impossible that he is eat a plastic.
Usually, this belly is less inflate.
I post the result of amminia test as soon as I can.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

The catfish is very bad. it floats on the surface and no longer has equilibrium.
what can i give him?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

the catfish is dead.
After an autopsy, it turned out that he was sterile (gonads no developped) and his swim bladder was abnormally swollen and hard.
How to avoid swim bladder problems in the future ?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Sorry to hear that.

There are many things that can go wrong with internal organs, including swimming bladder. If the fish never had any problems or illnesses before, with the bladder or otherwise, then it is even harder to be sure. Swimming bladders can be affected by both parasites and bacteria.

Healthy and balanced diet is always one key to long term success.

How old was the fish? Perhaps it passed from old age. I don't think bullheads are known to have a long lifespan, for some reason about 10 years is coming up in my memory... but this could be for the lack of more data.

Moreover, mutations do not occur one at a time but in bunches. Since your catfish was a mutant (as I naively or ignorantly assume all color morphs are, which deviate from the normal color), it must have had other deviations in its genetic makeup in addition to those controlling pigmentation. Most usually mutants exhibit a shortened lifespan and weaker overall health.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

he was 4 years old.
For not reproduce error, which diet is recommanded ?
He eat a wafers tropical carnivores and fish.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

What is the ingredient list of the wafers?
What fish? Live, fresh, or frozen/thawed? What species? If it was stored, how was it stored?
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

For wafers: https://www.aquaristikshop.com/aquarist ... re/172465/
The fish are frozen (Atherina boyeri) and are stored in my freezer.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

I don't see any red flags in the diet. It seems pretty good. Smelt and decent quality, balanced and complete dry feed.

I maintain my initial suspicion that the chances are high that your fish are subjected to persistent low levels of ammonia and nitrite. 100 gallons is a small volume of water for your apparently large fish.

Let me ask you this. The very crude rule of thumb for a stocking level of a fish tank states that one better stay under 1 cubic inch of fish body volume per 1 gallon of water. Please, eyeball and estimate - are you in violation of this rule?

Say, if your bullhead, which is a stocky fish, was on average 10" long, 2" wide, and 2" tall, that would already come to 40 cubic inches, that is roughly halfway to the maximum recommended. And you also have a carp and oscars in there of the size you haven't mentioned yet.

One needs a large enough volume of water for what's called instant dilution of the ammonia and nitrite toxins to the levels below readable by a liquid test kit (BTW, I have never met with a nitrite test showing 0.05 ppm because our best kit the API starts out at 0.25 ppm as the first readable number, so I am not sure how to interpret your test result of 0.05 ppm).

In low volume of water, fish are quite prone to the brown blood disease, which you can read up on.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

My tank mesure 150 cm x 40 cm x 60cm (400 liters net, 450 liters brut)
Oscars are 3" and carp 11" but the carp went go to the pond.
I find this is a sufficient volume for black bullhead.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Bas Pels »

The cubic inch Victor mentioned is 15,625 cubic centimeter. Assuming a fish weighing the same as the water it replaces (fish generally weigh a little bit more, but not much) Victor advises 4 grams of fisdh a liter.

The oscas would weigh 50 grams each, the carp 700. That is, there was room for some 800 grams of fish left. From the look on the picture I guess the fish to weigh a kilo. Perhaps more.

Now I think there is a difference between rules of thumb in the USA and in Europe. These could be both true, in America I understand people change more water, pump more, and yes that allows one a bit more fish.

However, if you keep your fish the European way, with less waterchanging and so on, the European norms should be used. I myself aim at 3 gram per liter. For regular fish. Very sensitive ones less, rather insensitive ones can be kept with more.

I'm afraid the tank was too small.
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you Bas for this. Appreciate it. Didn't realize the regional differences in fish keeping. Just thought I'd again stress that 1 cu inch per gallon is the max, that is pushing it and leaving no room for error, which is not a good thing and not deemed a "good, humane practice" by most.

*******

OK, Kiwidu. Thank you for that too.

I wish information like this, and the rest we fished out of you one piece at a time as a result of this thread, would be provided in the original post to eliminate unneeded and wasteful guessing.

Providing good, adequate info is neglected in almost every post asking a health-related question. Water parameters must be cited, and how they are measured, the tank must be described, the tank mates, their interactions, filtration, aeration, whether the fish are wild caught, dewormed or not, treated against other parasites or not, prior health history of fish, of tank mates, these are all a must, and photos of the entire tank and closeups of the fish are always useful.

Anyhow, my suspicion about overstock may be off then... until we get to see the ammonia test result. Also, when all these fish lived together, the tank might have been pretty heavily stocked by the rule of thumb.

Dealing with rational explanations, I would have to fall back on the mutant hypothesis, that is that their lifespan and health are compromised in a variable way just as their appearance.

Of course, there could be many other reasons, almost all indecipherable by a layman and hobbyist, many of which having to do with the origin of the bullhead and its tank mates and their pathogen cultures they came with or the pathogen cultures they had acquired before coming to you and in your care too. This is a black box with the Schrodinger cat that may or may not be in there...
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by kiwidu21 »

the test of ammonia can see is <005 mg/l (ppm) so it is good
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Re: Ameiurus melas stop eating

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Excellent.

Granted we don't know what the ammonia was at when your tank had been fully stocked with the bullhead and the carp and the oscars, albeit the latter were small. Your ammonia might have been elevated and you'd not know if you never checked and this still remains a possibility that did your bullhead in. We can't discard it. We'll never know.
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