Walmart Alumnus

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Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Hi, our catfish is at least a decade old, has dark gray with lighter underbelly, and is about 12" long. Bought from Walmart. When we first bought them, he and his 2 brothers were about 2" long. About the same size as our existing fish. These catfish were only aggressive with other fish--never with each other, or humans. So far, I can only find 2 other catfish that he "kind of" looks like: a Lesser Salmon or Crystal-eyed catfish. If anyone has an idea what kind this guy is, I'd really appreciate it.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Silurus »

It's a channel catfish ().
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Agree with Silurus.

The channel cat shows a pretty bad case of lateral line erosion disease, probably because of malnutrition, lack of sufficient vitamins and minerals. What do you feed it?

Also, a normal channel catfish of 10 years old should be around 3 feet in length and weigh 30+ lbs.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Wow! Thank you so much! We gave him tropical fish flakes, as we did all our other fish. My husband thought he was a Channel catfish, but I didn't think so because of size. Now, since researching about him, I've upped his diet to include brine shrimp and bloodworms. So, drop the flakes and give him more of them? If he has the proper diet, would he start to grow again? Or is he stunted?

And did I mention he came from Walmart??? Walmart!!! Why did they sell this kind of fish to the public?

Anyway, thank you all SO MUCH!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

You are welcome and also welcome to the Planet!

If the flakes are an all-in-one kind of nutrition, it could suffice but I doubt the fish could get enough of the flakes to have all its needs met, I mean it would probably need about a handful of the flakes, pellets, etc. a day at a minimum. I am afraid this would spoil the water in your tank immediately if you were to begin to feed it that much.

Flakes, brine shrimp, bloodworms could be a great diet but for fish that are smaller than say 6"-8". I'd transfer your channel to quality pellets and thawed fish cuisine, but again, IDK if your filtration can cope.

Yeah, chances are this fish is stunted, nor did it have great genes to start with anyway because the LFS are stocked with refuse, culls, underperformers from farming ops which raise channels for food.

Yes, its walmart origin is reflected in the thread title :)

They sell because it is not illegal and because people buy and because there is not enough bad publicity for them to stop this practice. This is how capitalism works in my crude grasp :) They will try to sell you ANYTHING you'd buy. The reverse side of this coin is that buyers must know what they buy, otherwise, it is reasonable to expect that they will get burned, of course... let it be cars, refrigerators, clothing, food, or pets... like that proverbial man who bought a tiny cute chunky puppy at a flee market that grew up into a bear :)
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Again, thanks so much!

I picked up Tetra's JumboMin Large floating sticks (says for "monster fish") and he loves them. Filled his little belly. I'll use them and supplement with flakes, frozen brine and blood worms....Poor guy. But, because of you, now I know. THANK YOU!!!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

I only hope to help.

Be careful please with increasing the feeding amount. If you are not proficient with the hobby and you yourself don't own and test your water for ammonia, nitrite (letter I), nitrate (letter A), pH with a liquid test tube test kit, you can easily kill or sicken everyone in your tank.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Jools »

How often, and how much do you change the water? What Viktor says is good advice but can be mitigated (or worsened) depending on the water change regime. Also, the tank looks really new. Has your fish been moved recently?

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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Good eye! Yes, the tank is new--it's only been going for a couple of weeks. He outgrew his last one, but until now, we never had the money to upgrade. I'd love to get him an even bigger one, but right now this is the best we could afford. And he's so happy in it. The last one, though the water levels were good, just wasn't adequate for his size.

Yikes on the feeding increase. I'll be more careful and will check the water. Our kit includes ammonia, ph, nitrates and ph balance. The last I checked it was before putting him in and before I changed his diet. I'll go to Petco for a better kit to measure those different levels....You guys are awesome.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Don't get the dip sticks, my advice is. They are notoriously crude or even unreliable. Get the liquid test like the API freshwater liquid test kit.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Hi again. Happy (but slightly concerning) update!

In the few days he's been getting better food, Stellar's filled out beautifully and some of those silver streaks/patches are disappearing. :) BUT, the extra food has strained the filter, as you predicted. I couldn't yet get a more detailed test kit (family issues). Our current test said the nitrates (NH3/NH+4...whatever that means) are at 0 ppm, and ammonia is between 7.6-8. The tank is constantly cloudy. Our filter is a Marineland Penguin 350 double wheel (50-70 gal, for our 40 gal tank), and hubby changed the cartridges this morning. Slight improvement, but I think that with our catfish's new feeding regiment, we may need a second filter. Any thoughts?
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

*feeding regimen, not regiment. I suck at multitasking.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Jools »

Are you sure you measured ammonia and not pH? I am not sure the tank's cycled, how long since you set it up the filter? A second filter is never a bad option and I would say a good buy. Then you can really clean one or the other but never both in the same week.

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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. The tank's been up for at least 2-3 weeks. We dechlorinated it and added some "aquarium bacteria" before putting him in. His last tank had 0 nitrates and I believe 0 ammonia, and he spent a decade in that one. Maybe our tests are off? Anyway, he seems happy.

I'll pick up another filter and new tests for him.

Thank you so much!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Jools »

I'd just hold back a bit on the feeding. The cloudy water is not a sign of filter ineffectiveness, it's the tank cycling and a bunch of bacteria in the water as opposed to the filter. If it were my fish, I would not feed it until the water went crystal clear.

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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Exactly as Jools says I'd stop any feeding but I'd go further and say stop until you get the liquid ammonia test kit, like this one, and learn to use it and it reads zero (both ammonia and nitrite). Otherwise you risk sickening or killing your fish.

-- You need to test for ammonia, NH3 and NH4 combined, must read at zero ppm by this kit; use a vial of tap water as a reference versus a vial of your tank water, add reagents to both per test procedure;
-- nitrite, NO2, must read zero ppm
-- nitrate, NO3, could be 5-20 ppm and it's ok
-- pH, should be between 6.5 and 8 most usually.

https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostor ... r-test-kit

It's under $30 with shipping.

What cartridges are you talking about? By disturbing the filter biomedia, you are harming your filtration... you said the tank and filter have been in operation only 2-3 weeks?

Your tank is likely not cycled, which means the beneficial bacteria colonies have not had enough time to establish in sufficient quantity and grow.

Cloudiness is, as Jools says, the bacterial bloom, pretty much always indicative that the cycling is incomplete in newly established tanks, which places your fish in grave danger.

You could add ammolock in liquid form to detoxify the ammonia and also add table salt to detox the nitrite - the two most common killers of pet fish. https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostor ... tle-118915 ... but you need to know the concentration of ammonia and nitrite in your tank via the said liquid tests, so you could add ammolock and salt accordingly in sufficient amounts.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

You are positively awesome and I'll get to it right now. Thank you both!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Okey, I got both the kit and ammo lock. Tests reveal that ammonia was at 8, nitrate 2 was at .25 and nitrate 3 was at 5. I added the ammo lock, but according to the API booklet, I need to add API/Nitra-zorb/Aqua Detox to remove the nitrate. I don't have that at hand right now, and Petco's closing soon. You mentioned salt. Do you have any idea what kind of salt, and how much a 40 gal would need? As always, any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

From the internet, I pulled up 1TBSP per gallon. Is that correct? For a 40 gal, that would be about 13 TBSPs of non-idolized salt? Or should I wait to get the stuff from Petco?
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Your test results are not clear to me:

8 ppm ammonia?
0.25 ppm nitrite?
5 ppm nitrate?

8 ppm ammonia is a killer. I trust you added the right amount of ammolock to detox it.
0.25 ppm nitrite or NO2 needs 25 ppm of salt to detox it, which per 40 gal amounts to 4 gram roughly. A teaspoon without a heap is roughly 5 gram. You can add more salt, it won't hurt short term.
5 ppm nitrate does NOT require any action. As I wrote even 20-40 ppm of nitrate is fine.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

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AHA! Nitrite 2 and Nitrate 3....My bad. No wonder you were confused.

Yes, those were the figures. And I'll add the salt now. Last question, I promise....If the water clears up considerably (but not quite crystal) can I feed him a few pellets? He inhales them immediately and they don't sit at all. I ask because every time I pass by, he chases me down. If not, that's fine. I just appreciate the advice.

Again, thank you so much. You are positively the best!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

We only hope to help.

What you (and only you :) ) call Nitrite 2, it is normally called nitrite, aka in plural form nitrites, aka also in chemical formula NO2.

What you (and only you :) ) call Nitrate 3, it is normally called nitrate, aka in plural form nitrates, aka also in chemical formula NO3.

Please, consider using one of these three options to name the tests to avoid confusion in the future.

Catfish in the wild go through fasts because they are not able to locate or catch feed every day, often they cannot find adequate sustenance for weeks or months, and then they don't feed or don't feed much at all during certain seasons. It is known from keeping them in captivity, that for example your channel catfish of 1 foot length and more or less healthy can EASILY go for 1, 2, 3, and 4 weeks without feed. It can go for months without feed too.

I once was weaning a catfish off gravely-dangerous live feeder fish cuisine and it was a battle of wills, it was a stubborn one and didn't eat for 6 (!) months before it caved. I am reporting a true number. It got thin alright but not emaciated, and then rebounded just fine, in a month it was back to its normal weight.

Fish are not warm-blooded humans or other mammals. They need not warm themselves, they need not fight gravity and they live in a weightlessness (which is why their flesh is far more tender versus land animals), compared to humans and other higher animals they haven't any significant nervous system activity or brain activity. As such, they need 10x-100x less energy than humans to live a normal life, and can survive on 100x-1000x less energy than humans.

Often we anthropomorphize our pets, that is assign to them our needs, behavior, feelings, etc.

It's a long story to say your catfish will be just fine if you wait for your tank to cycle and for your ammonia and nitrite to firmly read ZERO ppm at all times, before and after feeding, which shouldn't take more than a few weeks from now.

You conditioned an instinct, a Pavlov-dog-like response in your pet that it associates your person or your approaching the tank with feeding. When you stop rewarding this behavior it may weaken or go away but as soon as you pick up, it will come back. It's called biological programming :) Our pet fish really are 99%+ programmed biological machines with the tiniest room for primitive deviation and training.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Bas Pels »

I can only agree with Victor.

To add a few more numbers, an average mammal needs 10 times more food then a same sized reptile, and many a catfish is much slower than this reptile.

However, ´a mammal´ does not include humans. The thing is, in a normal mammal, the kidneys consume the most of their energy, but in humans it is our brain. We have a very oversized brain, compared to other mammals, and brains take a lot of energy. In relative terms, ours is 4 times the size of a chimpansee´s being the non-human with relatively the largest brains

We could say that our brains make us need twice the energy an average mammal does.

So, starving oneself for a day would compare to starving another mammal for two days, that is starving a reptile for 20 days and starving a catfish for perhaps 40 days.

The record for a human starving and surviving the hunger strike is around a month. Therefore Victors fish, refusing to eat for half a year, is not a big starvator, it was just getting used to not eating.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Wow, just wow! I had no idea how complex a freshwater tank could be. I'm speechless. Again, thank you all.

About the results, I ran the tests again and the numbers are the exact same. According to ammolock, it'll still detect ammonia even if the the ammonia's no longer dangerous. I just have to keep adding more ever 2 days until the tests clear. But for the *NO2* (yea me! :-BD) should I add another tsp of salt, or should I run to Petco for aqua-detox/ nitra-zorb? As alway, any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

I've learned a lot from your post, Bas. I appreciate it.
AMT wrote: 08 Sep 2020, 22:13 Wow, just wow! I had no idea how complex a freshwater tank could be. I'm speechless. Again, thank you all.

About the results, I ran the tests again and the numbers are the exact same. According to ammolock, it'll still detect ammonia even if the the ammonia's no longer dangerous. I just have to keep adding more ever 2 days until the tests clear. But for the *NO2* (yea me! :-BD) should I add another tsp of salt, or should I run to Petco for aqua-detox/ nitra-zorb? As alway, any info will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!
Ammonia of 8 ppm is at the limit of the test. You'd be wise to dilute the sample with tap water by 2x, or 4x, to get a reading that is not at the extreme, so then you will know your ammonia concentration better, more accurately, as it could be 10, 12, 14 ppm or who knows.

So if you dilute your sample roughly 2x (half a vial to the line is tank water and half is tap water or bottled water) and say get a reading of 4 ppm, then indeed, you have 8 ppm ammonia (4x2=8). If you still get 8 ppm, then your ammonia is at least 8x2=16 ppm and a 4x dilution as the next step would be warranted.

I'd not add too much ammolock but per label and maybe a moderate excess, like 25%, just in case. Your ammonia test (if needed with the dilution) tells you how much ammonia you got. If your new test says 8 ppm and you added enough ammolock to detox 8 ppm before, then you are all set, you don't need to add more, unless you did a water change, which would take some of the ammolock out, then it needs to be replenished according to how much water was changed out.

Same goes for NO2 (yay you! :) good job!) Go by the test result. If your NO2 is now say 0.5 ppm - add more salt, 2x more because NO2 is 2x higher. If it is 1 ppm, add 4x more versus what you added to detox 0.25 ppm. If you took some salt out with a water change, replenish the salt; if you changed 50% water, you took out half of the salt, so add half back.

You need not to do anything else or get anything from Petco, if you do this right.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Cool. Thanks so much!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Hi, I'm back. Update: unrelenting ammonia. No kidding. I've done at least (5) 50% and (1) 75% water changes, using Seachem Prime as a water conditioner and Safe Start to reintroduce healthy bacteria. The same pattern emerges. On day of change, .25ppm ammonia. Next day, .50. It subtly rises until I'm able to do another change--about 4 days later. Then it's between 3-4ppm. During the time of rising, however, I dose Seachem every 24-36 hours to detoxify the ammonia.

Nitrites are gone. Nitrates hover between 10-20. Water is beautifully crystal clear. And the weird part? We have no idea where this is coming from. We even took out all the decorations, leaving just fish and sand. And the ammonia still rises.

I stopped feeding flakes weeks ago. He now eats either catfish shrimp wafers, or another bottom feeder pellet (not sure of the name). And he *eats* it immediately. No food lingers in the tank, ever. The filter is Penguin 350, but it doesn't do an adequate job (in my opinion) of cleaning the tank; fish's poop is constantly on the bottom, so I scoop that out immediately, as well. I'd like to get another filter but I'm hesitant at this point.

I've also added Ammo Chips. Change them out after 4-5 days, as recommended, but the ammonia continues to rise instead of fall. What a waste.

Anyway, my own research has turned up empty. Any advice on why I can't get rid of this persistent, ever rising ammonia would be most appreciated. Thank you all!
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Bas Pels »

What you report is odd, very odd.

Firstly, because the transformation from ammonia to nitrite goes easily, and the bacteria doeing this grow rapidly

But secondly, a level of 1 ppm ammonia should result in red inflammation of the fins. I'm quite certain you would have reported this

Now I know nitrite and nitrate tests expire - does your ammonia test also have an expiration date?
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

What's the tank size remind us please?

I can think of two explanations. One is your biological filtration is undersized for the bio-load, that is the amount of feed you introduce. You were saying you were getting a second filter, but I can't find where you'd say you installed it.

Two, you never explained (I asked but can't find the answer it seems) what you meant by swapping the cartridges in your Penguin bio wheel filter every two weeks or some such. I am afraid you may be regularly disturbing and destroying the bacteria colonies that process ammonia and nitrite.

Unless feed is getting stuck in, under and behind the furniture, which is not the case as you say the fish inhales feed immediately, more objects (aquarium safe) in the tank provide more surface area for the needed bacteria to grow on and to process your ammonia and nitrite.

Safe Start at this point doesn't matter, you can save your money and not add it anymore. You already have a million times more bacteria in your tank (but still not enough) than what you add with the bacteria-seeding agent such as Safe Start, so this is moot.

I am glad to see how proficient you got with the ammonia measurement. This is very good.

Once again, as stated before, I'd recommend to stop feeding until the ammonia is always and firmly at ZERO ppm for some days, a week, and then start feeding little by little and increase the amount slowly (over weeks) and keep measuring ammonia. As soon as you see any non-zero ammonia, reduce the feeding amount back to what it was at the prior step and see if ammonia disappears. Try increasing the feeding amount again in a week or two, and see again what the ammonia does. If the ammonia keeps reappearing as you go over this threshold of the feed amount, then this mean this is the maximum your bio-filtration can cope with and in order to feed more, filtration must be increased.

And while doing all this, please, do NOT disturb the filter except to rinse out the mechanical filtration part, that is the sponge on the intake or before the water enters the main part of the filter where the bio-filtration takes place.

...

Also, if you have to pick up poop manually, this tells me that the water flow is likely too weak in your tank, your filter, if this is the only source of water stirring in your tank is too weak, need more filters or a powerhead or bubblers. The more stirring you have in a tank, the more dissolved oxygen your water will contain, the more needed bacteria can grow everywhere in your system - in the filter, on the walls, on the furniture, in the sand substrate. Having enough dissolved oxygen is EQUALLY important to having enough surface area for the needed bacteria to settle.

...

If nitrites are surely gone, you can forget about adding salt, but as long as your tank shows ANY ammonia, it is prudent to continue checking for the nitrites.

Nitrates of 10-20 ppm is fine. Nothing's needed to be done.

...

I'd not bother with anything else but Prime or Ammolock. As stated before, if you do Ammolock or Prime and the table salt right, you need not anything else. It pays to have a simpler but robust approach which we have been offering to you. I am sure your Ammo-Chips work as thy should and without them you'd see faster and higher rise in ammonia, so it is not a waste but it complicates things unnecessarily at this point in the battle for nitrification of your tank.

HTH.
Bas Pels wrote: 02 Oct 2020, 14:42 ...But secondly, a level of 1 ppm ammonia should result in red inflammation of the fins. I'm quite certain you would have reported this

Now I know nitrite and nitrate tests expire - does your ammonia test also have an expiration date?
AMT is using Ammolock or Prime to detox ammonia. The liquid API test kit was just bought on our instruction I understood .
Last edited by Viktor Jarikov on 02 Oct 2020, 17:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Walmart Alumnus

Post by AMT »

Crazy, right?

The tests are brand new and they expire 2025. But I have a correction: The NO2 was 0ppm yesterday, after the water change, but today jumped to .25. Just as the ammonia was .25, but now is .50ppm. This is one day after a 75% water change.

As for his gils, I can't ascertain any inflammation. But then, even after we had a huge, 8ppm+ ammonia spike, I didn't notice any physical changes other than lethargy. He's a dark channel catfish, so for me, I couldn't see a difference.

Could sand retain ammonia? Should I remove that, also? There's nothing else in the tank.

If I get a new filter, will the nitrites spike all over again? We've had this tank/filter going for at least 5-6 weeks and I assume some kind of bacteria is working. After all, we were at 0ppm nitrites for awhile.

I honestly don't know what else to do. I can't keep doing water changes indefinitely, but neither could I seem to find the source.
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