cross breeding

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DJ-don
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cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

has any crossbreeding from any kind of catfish happened? i'm just a bit curious if it has happened
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Carp37 »

These two threads discuss hybridisation in Corydoras:-
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =6&t=26767
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =6&t=27029

Several pleco genera can produce hybrids- L10A is believed to be a hybrid Rhineloricaria, and Ancistrus bristlenose are believed to hybridise.

Plus there are all the man-made (with artificial fertilisation of eggs) hybrids- redtailed cats X tiger shovelnose, redtailed cats X Oxydoras, Synodontis species hybrids by the bucketful...
Megalechis thoracata, Callichthys callichthys, Brochis splendens (and progeny), Corydoras sterbai, C. weitzmani, CW044 cf. pestai, CW021 cf. axelrodi, Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps, Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus (and progeny), Panaque maccus, Panaque nigrolineatus, Synodontis eupterus
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Richard B »

DJ-don wrote:has any crossbreeding from any kind of catfish happened? i'm just a bit curious if it has happened
This has happened many times by man's intervention, with many species :evil: either by the fact of housing species in restricted environments ie- tanks & having it occur naturally (which is unusual, depending on how closely related the sp are) or by intentional design. If you look in cat-e-log you can see examples of pims & syno hybrids. There are even some bizarre hybrids coming out like pang x RTC or TSN x O niger, or pang x clariid!!!!! I wish with all my heart man would step away from these abominations.....

I also believe there are records of wild occurrances of close related sp but these are very rare
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Bas Pels »

Although I detest keeping hybrids, I do see advantages in keeping them commercially

Imagine a fish farmer who has onds close to a river, but the river does not contain farmable catfish. If he starts breeding some catfish, the result will be the species finally excapes - through waterchanges, or other accidents. A new species is introduced, and a disaster might happen

Much better the farmer grows fish which are sterile, being infertile hybrids. On a side note, many species start breeding young, and therefore waste a lot of energy reproducing. The resulting better crop might even undo the cost for buying fish (I know breeders of Tilapia, Oreochromis mossambicus or niloticus prefer the hybrid above breeding their own stock)
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Re: cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

after looking at these topics, why are people saying that you should stop cross breeding when you can just not sell them and just keep them in your tank? its just like what happened with all the dogs. there is a high amount of crossbreed dogs and there isn't that much contreversy. why can't we just make nature take its course and just not sell them?
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Richard B »

Hybrids are created for 2 purposes (mainly, & please correct me if i'm wrong)

1 - food

2 - selling in the aquarium trade to make lot's of money

As for synos - how would you feel if you paid a couple of hundred pounds for a rare species & then found out it was a cross bred hybrid - not happy i can tell you!

Dumb question of the day - are all hybrids sterile? What about sturisoma?

Also there is a hybrid syno spawning video on youtube - i don't imagine young were raised from those...
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Re: cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

Richard B wrote:Hybrids are created for 2 purposes (mainly, & please correct me if i'm wrong)

1 - food

2 - selling in the aquarium trade to make lot's of money
i get number 2 but what do you mean by food? to give to bigger fish to eat or to feed on eggs?
Last edited by DJ-don on Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by PlecoCrazy »

I had a L260 and a L46 cross and it produced a very cool fish. I figured the way different color pattern between the two would have prevented it but it didn't. The fry look really cool, I'm sure all sorts of people would want to buy them but its not right. Once I discovered I had hybrid's I put an end to that love affair. I didn't sell any and they are in a discus tank. I agree you can keep them yourself and not sell. You should try to prevent it but if it happens and you got a cool fish then keep it. But if you allow the hybridization to continue you are going to wind up with more fish than you know what to do with and then what. Doubt you'll want to kill them so you'll give them away or sell them and then the problem has gotten to what everyone is complaining about. Beyond that, say the fry of my (I call them them the QueenKings) actually happen to reproduce in the tank they are in. I'm going to be in a worse spot than I am now. Then I'll have F1 hybrids that I have no more room for and can't sell or give away, plus a breeding group of hybrid fish that I have no where to separate so they'll keep reproducing and then what, I'm screwed and either have to kill them, sell them or give them away. Don't worry I won't do the last two but I hope I never get in that spot.

So my bottom line is hybrids are wrong and should be avoided when possible. Sometimes things happen that we don't plan on and we get some hybrids but once we know what is going on we need to put a stop to it.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Suckermouth »

DJ-don wrote:i get number 2 but what do you mean by food? to give to bigger fish to eat or to feed on eggs?
People breed hybrids for aquaculture for people to eat.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by jerry58 »

Hi PlecoCrazy
I had a L260 and a L46 cross and it produced a very cool fish.
I am on another site trying to find out if L46s can be cross bred with other fish to produce nicer looking fish and came across this,what a coincidence.
I am getting no answers on that site so just out of curiosity have you any pics of the fish to support your claim I don't doubt you just interested to what they look like.

Just for the record I do not support breeding hybrids in any way.

Thanks jerry
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Re: cross breeding

Post by PlecoCrazy »

Here is the post from when it happened. I thought I had zebras but later found out not. I'll post some pics later on tonight.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=14071
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Shane »

its just like what happened with all the dogs. there is a high amount of crossbreed dogs and there isn't that much contreversy.
Not the same thing at all. All domestic dogs are one species, Canis lupus familiaris, so they are not crossbred. Crossbred usually refers to the crossing of two different species. To crossbred a dog one would have to cross it with a jackal, fox or coyote. Crossing a dog and a gray wolf would not be crossbreeding as they are the same sp. Hope that sheds some light on what aquarists mean by "crossbreeding."

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Re: cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

thanks with all the comments guys but can crossbreeds breed with;
e.g. a panda cory with corydoras paleatus crossbreed breed with a normal peppered cory and/or panda cory?
or could they only breed with their own hybrid kind?>
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Re: cross breeding

Post by MatsP »

In some cases, hybrids are sterile. Most (if not all) mammal hybrids are sterile, whereas some fish are KNOWN to NOT be sterile, and others are unknown whether they are sterile or not.

We know that L10a not only breeds, but also breeds to look the same.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by PlecoCrazy »

I posted the pics of the L46/L260 on my original post of the event. They are coming up on three years old and there are around 10 of them so I'll probably be finding out in the next year whether they reproduce or not. I'm hoping not but we'll see.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Suckermouth »

PlecoCrazy wrote:I posted the pics of the L46/L260 on my original post of the event. They are coming up on three years old and there are around 10 of them so I'll probably be finding out in the next year whether they reproduce or not. I'm hoping not but we'll see.
Considering the relatively close relationship among Hypancistrus species, my guess is that they will be fertile... Those fish look rather interesting, though.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

How do we know whether or not many of the Hypancistrus spp. found in nature, say those of the Rio Xingu, are not actually hybrids between fewer species than we currently believe are endemic to that river? There are many forms that appear to be intermediates between better defined species. The genus could still be in considerable flux, especially those from the same or nearby streams. It would explain why it is often so difficult to identify many of them.
It looks to me like many Hypancistrus spp are are recent, in geological time, and still very much undergoing radiative speciation.
The reproductive barriers between species appear to be low. Low enough to question whether or not there are as many species as there are Hypancistrus L-numbers.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by MatsP »

apistomaster wrote:How do we know whether or not many of the Hypancistrus spp. found in nature, say those of the Rio Xingu, are not actually hybrids between fewer species than we currently believe are endemic to that river? There are many forms that appear to be intermediates between better defined species. The genus could still be in considerable flux, especially those from the same or nearby streams. It would explain why it is often so difficult to identify many of them.
That would partly depend on the particular definition of species. If we assume the mammal method of "they produce viable offspring", then I expect all Hypancistrus can be lumped into a single species. I don't think anyone on this forum follows this particular definition, but that would be the only simple and strict rule one could apply. We get into a much less clear area of taxonomy when we start discussing "how much different does it need to be to be a species".
It looks to me like many Hypancistrus spp are are recent, in geological time, and still very much undergoing radiative speciation.
The reproductive barriers between species appear to be low. Low enough to question whether or not there are as many species as there are Hypancistrus L-numbers.
Yes. L-numbers are NOT species - as I'm sure you are aware - but rather a pseudo-species definition. And there are no strict rules as to what encompasses a new L-number and what doesn't - the same species of fish, from the same river could very possibly have different L-numbers simply because one specimen (or group of specimens) is exported from Colombia, and the other from Peru, Venezuela or Brazil - even if all the fish were caught on the same day, lumped together, and only split at the "distribution central" where the fish are collected together before shipping to the epxorter proper... By scientific measures, that's OBVIOUSLY not two different species. But since exported fish's capture locality is often vague or non-existant, export location is a much easier measure to use to define where they are from.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

after looking at Apsitomaster's post, i was starting to think.... how do we know, the fish that we manage to catch in the wild arent just crossbreads at all? for all we could know, an l204 could be combine of other panaque species.
for example, the crossbred fish that plecocrazy managed to do, how do we know if these fish exist in the wild? for al we could know, right now fishermen might just've snagged a few of the crossbreed L46 and L260
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Re: cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

and also how could 2 different species crossbreed in the first place?? the 2 fish must hav the same kind of dna or something (not really sure on which it is dna genes etc :P)
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