cross breeding

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

Mike wrote:And quite probably that is the, biologically speaking, correct view. If a group of animals can be diagnosed, if you reliably can tell the groups apart, then they in all probability really are a distinct species, whether they are recognized as such or not.
Thats the way I would want all scientist's to work but they don't, I think it's little dangerous to interfer with nature recognizing different locality of several varietys as the same species when there are visible differencies. Why there are differencies is just because of natural on going evolution where different localities is addapted to that specific environment, even humans contribute to this development in nature moving a lot of species around the world both for good and bad reasons.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by HaakonH »

Janne,

L236 at Porto Do Moz? Isn't that close to where Xingu runs into the Amazon? I thought it was found on the other side of Altamira, in the Iriri...?

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

Many people think L236 is from Rio iriri but they are always together with L333 either from Belo Monte or from Porto do Moz, and yes Porto do Moz is at the mouth of xingu into the amazon river... strange place to find any Hypancistrus species.

I'm just waiting to find L250... have still never seen any in real.

Janne

ps. I like your signature :)
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Re: cross breeding

Post by HaakonH »

Really...huh. The plot thickens :foggie: So, if L236 is 'always' (?) found together with L333 as you say, are they fewer and far between than L333 in the same area, or are their numbers approximately the same?

It makes me wonder if the world is being fooled here...because the untrained eye may have a hard time telling these two apart. Let's say a fisherman is collecting L333. Wouldn't there be a risk of him picking up some less striking L236 and add them to the mix, believing them to be L333? And since obviously nobody would expect L236 to be found in this area, these specimens could pass under the radar as L333 and stay that way forever? Because I don't think too many importers or buyers would necessarily be able to tell the difference...? Could this mean that L236 is actually more common in our tanks than we are aware of?

And another thing, Janne. Since you apparently know that L236 exists together with L333, you must have seen some examples of this. So, are all these L236 easy to tell apart from L333 in coloration (more striking?) or are you separating them by looking at other traits...? And is L236 still found in Rio Iriri or is this false information? I know someone wanted to try and keep the L333 location a secret too when it was first found ;)

Thanks for the signature comment, it's very true isn't it :beardy:

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

The fisherman dont know the different, they are all collecting L333 that is far more common... L236 is sorted out at the exporter and of 100 L333 they or we may find 1 L236. They are very rare and easy to tell apart from L333 through their much more striking appearance, real L236 when they was allowed was always sorted out and sold to special customers, the L236 that was imported regulary to Europe or other parts of the world belongs to the Hypancistrus "Lower Xingu" complex, of course few real L236 could have been imported among other species but that was probably extremely rare consider that most exporters know the high value of this L-number.

What I'm aware of no L236 have been collected in Rio Iriri, that means that I can't be sure.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by HaakonH »

Crossbred Hypancistrus species are available in the trade, at least in Japan. Have a look here:

http://no.babelfish.yahoo.com/translate ... l=Oversett

(remember to deactivate the * in pleco to see this)

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Price for this one (the most expensive): 517 U$D

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Text says "Imperial zebra and cross of [niyuinperiarudatsupurudo]" and "Domestic bleeding"

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Re: cross breeding

Post by DJ-don »

Suckermouth wrote:
DJ-don wrote:and also how could 2 different species crossbreed in the first place?? the 2 fish must hav the same kind of dna or something (not really sure on which it is dna genes etc :P)
This is correct. It is possible for two species, especially closely related species, to have DNA that is similar enough to produce fertile offspring.
i have been reading through everyones post and this actually seems interesting but if 2 different species had the same DNA to make a crossbred child, wouldnt that mean at 1 point these fish MAY have been the same species???? because they have the same DNA
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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

Hybrid parents don't necessarily have the same genes; just enough of the same to allow hybrids to be produced. Like Donkey X Horse=Mule. If the hybrid offspring are fully fertile it weakens any argument that they were legitimately separate species in the first place.
It does imply a past common ancestor provided the parents are truly different species and not just the same species with different local color forms having different L-numbers which have no scientific validity.

I expect once a thorough review accompanied by molecular genetic work has been done there will be many fewer species than there are L-numbers within the genus Hypancistrus. The fact there are local and distinctively appearing variants will not change our perspective that we should strive to breed these different variations of the same species as separate to maintain their distinctiveness in aquariums rather than indiscriminately breeding the different local varieties and ending up with a single homogenized aquarium strain.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by MatsP »

DJ-don wrote:i have been reading through everyones post and this actually seems interesting but if 2 different species had the same DNA to make a crossbred child, wouldnt that mean at 1 point these fish MAY have been the same species???? because they have the same DNA
If, like me, you believe in evolution, then yes, all catfish species have a common ancestor somewhere way back in the past. How far in the past is part of what determines if they can cross-breed and whether the offspring is fertile.

I'd say that producing offspring that is fertile doesn't weaken the argument that they are different species - at least not with a modern definition of species. There are literally thousands of species by modern definition that are likely to produce fertile offspring, and most likely ALL Hypancistrus from Rio Xingu at least may be capable of that. To me, that doesn't make them one species.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Bijn »

MatsP wrote: I'd say that producing offspring that is fertile doesn't weaken the argument that they are different species - at least not with a modern definition of species.

I agree, Pantherophis guttatus guttatus and Lampropeltis getulus californiae are 2 obviously different snake-species but they do produce fertile offspring. Probably all species from these 2 genera are capable to produce fertile offspring with each species from the other genus (if the Lampropeltis doesn't eat the Pantherophis before mating). So if 2 animals produce fertile offspring that doesn't mean they are 1 species. It just means that they have an equal number of chromosomes and enough genes that are compatible.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by MatsP »

It's a bit like "All cats have a tail." "Dogs have a tail, therefore dogs are cats".

You can clearly say that because two (proposed) different species CAN NOT produce fertile offspring, they are NOT the same species. However, if they are able to produce fertile offspring does not in itself make them the same species. Surely, no one is suggesting that and are the same species?

[And yes, I know, given that, using modern methods, we probably would arrive at the conclusion that not all dogs are the same species...]

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Shane »

i have been reading through everyones post and this actually seems interesting but if 2 different species had the same DNA to make a crossbred child, wouldnt that mean at 1 point these fish MAY have been the same species???? because they have the same DNA
This is a good question. The 1970s era science most of us learned from (which was probably from school textbooks that had been around since the 1950s) pretty much taught us all that, by definition, a species was valid and separate from another if the two organisms could not produce fertile offspring. Animal and plant biologists have strayed from this definition, in varying distances among various life science specialties, over the last 50 plus years.

Ironically, the only group of living beings on the planet we still apply this definition to is ourselves (aren't we special). Be your ancestors short, gracile San bushman from South Africa superbly adapted for life in the Kalahari, one of the central African tribes whose red blood cells have evolved clear down at the molecular level to make you genetically immune to malaria, or two meter tall Nordics whose skin and hair have lost almost all pigmentation allowing their bodies to utilize the very limited available sunlight in the far north to process vitamin D to keep them alive... you my friend are Homo sapiens because all matings between all humans on the planet produce viable offspring. If we applied this definition to fishes, for example, there would only be a Baensch Atlas I and we would all save some money. We are able to use a different definition for the rest of life because making an argument that Panaque maccus is "better" than P. cochliodon is just plain silly, while making the argument that race X is "better" than race Y has pretty much been the history of organized human violence.

One recent study I read pointed out that upon completing DNA testing of 14 species of Lake Victorian c i c h l i d from 9 different genera (different genera!) there was less genetic difference between them than between a typical population of humans. That pretty much means that a very small town in Iowa has more genetic diversity among its population of H. sapiens than several hundred c i c h l d s described as distinct species and belonging to over a dozen genera.

The important thing to remember, from a hobbyist's point of view, is that there is currently no universally agreed on definition of a "species" and that the definitions out there range far and wide. In fact several scientists are now arguing that it is time to just throw out the entire concept of "species" (won't that make Jool's and Mats' managing of the Cat-eLog less time consuming!) as it is based on faulty underpinnings. The species concept came about at a time when scientists believed, as the religious texts stated, that every organism was present in its final form as made by the Creator. All we had to do was find them all (as Noah did) and catalog them... that is why we are able to choose a single specimen from a population, called a holotype, to represent an entire species. Linnaeus wrote Systema Naturae in 1735 and gave us Taxonomy 135 years before Darwin wrote On the Origin of Spp and gave us evolution. Then we realized that evolution was in fact an ongoing process. However, we were still ok as we adopted the idea that evolutionary change takes place over very, very long periods of time.

Now we know this is not true at all. 12,000 years ago Lake Victoria was dry. Those 500 species of c i c h l i d s did not come about after millions of years of evolution, but rather after a few thousand. To bring the point home to H. sapiens; a recent study of black Americans showed that only 8% still retain the genetic immunity to malaria. Once the evolutionary pressure for immunity to malaria was removed the population dropped the adaptation not in 1,000s of years... but in a dozen or so generations.

So, the argument goes, it makes no sense to attach a static "species" name to what we know are constantly evolving gene pools. In fact, a species described in 1809 may not even be valid today if it has changed sufficiently in the last 200 years.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

Shane,
Excellent explanation :thumbsup:

The new generations of scientist will have lots of work ;)

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Re: cross breeding

Post by racoll »

An eloquent and interesting synopsis Shane, although I must contest a few points.
f we applied this definition to fishes, for example, there would only be a Baensch Atlas I
Variation in humans is generally strongly clinal along environmental gradients. The gradation of phenotypes is consistent with the recent population expansion. Insufficient time has elapsed, and too much gene flow is taking place for differentiation and assortative mating to occur. Taxonomists will look for discontinuities and unique characters, rather than recognise these clines.
One recent study I read pointed out that upon completing DNA testing of 14 species of Lake Victorian c i c h l i d from 9 different genera there was less genetic difference between them than between a typical population of humans
I don't know which study, but this variation was almost certainly at a very limited selection of loci. Only a genome wide survey could ascertain whether how truly different they are. Different forces act on different parts of the genome.
The important thing to remember, from a hobbyist's point of view, is that there is currently no universally agreed on definition of a "species" and that the definitions out there range far and wide.
So, the argument goes, it makes no sense to attach a static "species" name to what we know are constantly evolving gene pools. In fact, a species described in 1809 may not even be valid today if it has changed sufficiently in the last 200 years.
While it is certainly not always black and white, most taxonomists and evolutionary biologists are happy with the phylogenetic species concept, and it is the only concept implied or stated in the overwhelming majority of species descriptions, even before the advent of cladistic theory.

Marked discontinuities can be observed between most species, and populations of interbreeding or recently interbreeding organisms with diagnosable synapomorphic characters can, by and large, be called species. This is not theory, but observation and pattern from nature. Empirical data has shown the jump in branching rate at the boundary between speciation and gene coalescence. Most species conform to this model, but groups undergoing recent expansions such as discus, humans, Victoria cichlids or salmonids are going to cause problems when we need to recognise independent evolutionary units.

I do not believe species are some magical entity, but I do believe the concept of species is a workable and defensible one.


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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

I am much more agreement with racoll on this one especially since he was so kind enough to include some of the fish I care a lot about; the Symphysodon species and Salmonids which happen to share many of the same fuzzy lines that the Hypancistrus spp present and cause endless confusion.

Hey racoll,
I am getting a dozen F1 Nhamunda Blue Discus from a beautiful pair of fish very soon.
I do plan to keep the line pure but I should also get a couple of spare females I can breed with one of my favorite male wild Alenquer and then cross one female with a Stendker Brilliant Turquoise. I think the latter will produce a reasonable facsimile of a wild royal blue that my typical customers will like. The pure wild lines are appreciated more by only a few Discus purists like myself. It takes at least a year for a wild type Discus to show it's full potential colors and most folks want their Discus colorful from a very small size and lack the patience for the wild types to finally show their true colors. One other friend's wild blue pair has been spawning but he has been in a slump. I think I have begun to get him thinking about raising a brood thus adding to the diversity of F1 wild Discus I plan to keep going. There has been a recent trend towards a growing interest in keeping wild Discus but having tank raised wild types will make breeding them easier and they will be free of the parasites common to wilds.
Next step: Getting a line of well marked F1 Red Spotted Green Discus established.
These Discus projects will take a few years to establish well.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

I do not believe species are some magical entity, but I do believe the concept of species is a workable and defensible one.
It has a time limit, when enough time of evulotion have past it don't fit ?... it's either a new species or one old species and one new species or maybe even more species. When 2 species interbreed in nature and these offspring etablish a new population somewhere near or far away... is that a new species or is all 3 the same species? There are not much study when it comes to Loricariidae but for corals that also is an animal are much more recently studies made... and they interbreed every year in some places. Are humans more intelligent than mother nature or is't just our need to keep statistics on everything ? ;) I'm asking these questions of curiosity and because it's something I don't have so much knowledge about.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Mike_Noren »

Shane wrote:Ironically, the only group of living beings on the planet we still apply this definition to is ourselves (aren't we special).
Sorry, that is not true. First of all, the humans today are not considered species on the grounds that they are not diagnosable; there is no single character or combination of characters which would make it possible to distinguish species among humans. Every single character grades between races to the point it is even impossible to say how many races there are - 4 or 400.
The exception is fossil humans. Every single fossil of hominids tend to get described as a new species, so that there have been something like 15 described species of human alive during the last 2-3 million years. And in that context one should know that there exist no proof of any speciation event after Homo erectus (who grades imperceptibly into H. sapiens, ie H. erectus is a name given not to a separate species, but to a portion in time of the gene pool of humans, a "chronospecies"). Human biology as a whole is a cesspool of confusion and bullshit. The extremely confused debate around neanderthals and 'flores hobbits' depress and annoy me unspeakably, because no one pretends to know that paleontological species concepts are very different from biological ones, and everyone pretends that you can tell if two groups of animals were different species or not based on that one had a slightly larger bump on a bone in their foot, or were 0.1% different from modern humans in a mitochondrial gene.
One recent study I read pointed out that upon completing DNA testing of 14 species of Lake Victorian c i c h l i d from 9 different genera (different genera!) there was less genetic difference between them than between a typical population of humans.
Improbable, but depends on what genes were compared. For most genes both all humans and all victoria cichlids are identical or very nearly so. We're still talking animals with distinct ecologies and with highly distinctive pigmentation due to female choice - ie, they don't, or rarely, hybridize in nature, and any person would say they look different. Genetic distance means little to nothing.

Genera, families etc higher ranks have no intrinsic evolutionary meaning; they're simply "boxes" we use to partition the diversity of species to make it manageable. They're practical but ultimately mean nothing.
In fact several scientists are now arguing that it is time to just throw out the entire concept of "species" (won't that make Jool's and Mats' managing of the Cat-eLog less time consuming!) as it is based on faulty underpinnings.
Imperfect underpinnings, perhaps... I think you're talking about typology, the concept that all members of a species were imperfect representations of the "essence" of their species. We now know that reality is messy and that it is hard to determine the exact time of speciation, where the lineages branch, but abandoning species both flies in the face of evidence (it's obvious and self-evident that an oak tree is a different class of organism than a mallard duck) and would make studying evolution very difficult indeed.
So, the argument goes, it makes no sense to attach a static "species" name to what we know are constantly evolving gene pools. In fact, a species described in 1809 may not even be valid today if it has changed sufficiently in the last 200 years.
I don't understand this point. The species is valid into infinity or until it branches into two new species, whichever comes first.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

Sorry, that is not true. First of all, the humans today are not considered species on the grounds that they are not diagnosable; there is no single character or combination of characters which would make it possible to distinguish species among humans. Every single character grades between races to the point it is even impossible to say how many races there are - 4 or 400.
Does this means that there is one species of humans and 4-400 subspecies of humans? Whats the different between races and subspecies?
The species is valid into infinity or until it branches into two new species, whichever comes first.
Yes, at this moment and in the future when it no longer exist it was a species in the past, but the evulotion don't ever stop; so at which point in the evulotion can we (humans) decide this is the same species even that they look different?

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Suckermouth »

Janne wrote:
I do not believe species are some magical entity, but I do believe the concept of species is a workable and defensible one.
It has a time limit, when enough time of evulotion have past it don't fit ?... it's either a new species or one old species and one new species or maybe even more species. When 2 species interbreed in nature and these offspring etablish a new population somewhere near or far away... is that a new species or is all 3 the same species? There are not much study when it comes to Loricariidae but for corals that also is an animal are much more recently studies made... and they interbreed every year in some places. Are humans more intelligent than mother nature or is't just our need to keep statistics on everything ? ;) I'm asking these questions of curiosity and because it's something I don't have so much knowledge about.

Janne
I don't know of any situations where when two species interbreed, and their offspring found a new population far away. What is more common is that the two species have relatively extensive ranges and they have a zone right between where they hybridize; AFAIK, this is the general thing that happens with coral reef fishes that hybridize. This is not a small problem, and the problem is highlighted by so-called "ring species." In terms of your question, it could be either all one species, or two species. Hybridization never results in speciation, so it will never be three species.
Janne wrote:
Sorry, that is not true. First of all, the humans today are not considered species on the grounds that they are not diagnosable; there is no single character or combination of characters which would make it possible to distinguish species among humans. Every single character grades between races to the point it is even impossible to say how many races there are - 4 or 400.
Does this means that there is one species of humans and 4-400 subspecies of humans? Whats the different between races and subspecies?

Janne
You may be missing his point. His (and racoll's) point is that it is difficult to draw any lines between groups of humans and that it all blends together, and that variation is all in the form of gradients. If you choose an arbitrary definition you might get a few groups of humans, and if you choose another you might have to split humans excessively to get monophyletic groupings. There's no point in breaking up the humans into subspecies because each one would be minutely different from the next. A similar problem exists in splitting some large genera into meaningful genera.

The difference between "race" and "subspecies" is probably irrelevant since we don't use both on any one species, but if we did, the difference between races and subspecies would likely be the same as the difference between a common name and a scientific name for species. Sometimes they correspond exactly, and sometimes they don't.

Here's a piece from Wikipedia on race:
Some argue that the taxonomic concept of race, although valid in regards to other species, does not (currently) apply to humans. Many scientists have pointed out that traditional definitions of race are imprecise, arbitrary, have many exceptions, have many gradations, and that the numbers of races delineated vary according to the culture making the racial distinctions. Thus, those rejecting the notion of race typically do so on the grounds that such definitions and the categorizations which follow from them are contradicted by the results of genetic research.

Today many scientists study human genotypic and phenotypic variation using concepts such as "population" and "clinal gradation". Large parts of the academic community take the position that, while racial categories may be marked by sets of common phenotypic or genotypic traits, the popular idea of "race" is a social construct without base in scientific fact.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

This is not a small problem, and the problem is highlighted by so-called "ring species." In terms of your question, it could be either all one species, or two species. Hybridization never results in speciation, so it will never be three species.
Ok, when this happen what makes them to 2 species, if they succeed to etablish a new stable population they will be 2 species, and between that they are temporarily the same and 1 species?
You may be missing his point. His (and racoll's) point is that it is difficult to draw any lines between groups of humans and that it all blends together, and that variation is all in the form of gradients.
So this problem is the same for all other animals too, there are small variation within the same species but not enough to separate them as their own species, colouration, habitat adaptation etc. doesn't matter. Does this also meen that all existing subspecies today will be synonyms and become one species in the future?

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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

I don't see a once size fits all solution to species differentiation.
There are many diverging populations of a single or superspecies that don't quite warrant their own species but need differentiation because they have begun to diverge too much for a satisfactory inclusive species delineation without further qualifiers such as subspecies or local races.
And so many aquarium fish appear to be in a transition where making a clear distinction isn't possible.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by racoll »

Janne wrote:Whats the different between races and subspecies?
Subspecies do confuse matters, unnecessarily I think

I refer back to my post a few pages back.
racoll wrote:Subspecies were created to describe intraspecific variation under the biological species concept, where species were proposed to be entities that are unable to produce viable offspring.

Now, I don't like the biological species concept one bit, as it recognises diversity far too late in the process of divergence, ignoring evolutionary independent lineages which are clearly different, but may well hybridise. The subspecies concept was created to recognise this problem for those entities within a biological species that are morphologically different, but would be able to breed together and produce offspring given the opportunity.

In reality I would guess that only a handful of creatures have ever been described on the basis of breeding experiments, and these were certainly carried out in captivity, which does not reflect natural conditions. This to me makes the biological species concept irrelevant, with essentially untestable hypotheses.

So, what has happened , especially in birds and insects, is the species rank used when "large" differences are clear, while the subspecies rank being ascribed to variation that is only "slightly" different. These relative, and totally subjective differences are basically used as a proxy for whether something is capable of producing fertile offspring or not. This I think is poor science.

There has been a few papers criticising the recognition of many avian subspecies, pointing to lack of reciprocal monophyly as evidence of misleading classification; i.e. that subspecies should be monophyletic, and indicating that workers have been describing local populations with slightly different morphologies as different subspecies.

My first choice would be to recognise all independently evolving, monophyletic groups as separate species, no matter how small the difference is, and providing data are presented and defended in concordance with our current knowledge of the systems involved. There is no need for subspecies therefore, as the species rank becomes the smallest unit of formal biodiversity. I am glad that most if not all current ichthyologists agree with this idea, and therefore do not use the subspecific taxon.
Suckermouth wrote:Hybridization never results in speciation
It can do actually. See here.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

There are some fish like Oncorhynchus clarki, the North American Cutthroat trout that has about 14 recognized extant subspecies; some recently met with extinction. They cover most of Western North America, share much of the same range as Oncoryhynchus mykiss, Rainbow Trout.
No one argues these are two species but they freely interbreed and produce intermediate phenotypes which are fully fertile.
The Rainbow is further divided into subspecies.
These classifications are very subjective in some ways and objective in others. Wild fisheries managers have to agree on which fish are what fish by some convention. Their criteria may but does not necessarily include molecular genetics. They and fishermen must obey regulations specific to certain phenotypes of these fish. It comes down to a need for whatever the reasons, to be able to label the different fish with different names. Social science crosses practical paths with objective science where neither school of thought is happy with the definitions of the other but are legislated to do so. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutthroat_trout
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Janne »

My first choice would be to recognise all independently evolving, monophyletic groups as separate species, no matter how small the difference is, and providing data are presented and defended in concordance with our current knowledge of the systems involved. There is no need for subspecies therefore, as the species rank becomes the smallest unit of formal biodiversity. I am glad that most if not all current ichthyologists agree with this idea, and therefore do not use the subspecific taxon.
Does this mean that for example: Peckoltia sabaji consist of several species instead of one? The population in Rio Tapajos is different in the colouration compared to Rio Xingu's populaion and these 2 populations is different in the colouration and fin pattern to Peckoltia sabaji in Guyana and the one in Colombia, all of these populations are separated and isolated populations, no gene flood between them... today? That they didn't have access to the other "species" except the holotype thats why all become the same species, or maybe it's we hobbyist's that put them under one species but they don't belong there and are considered as undescribed species?
Many Apistogramma species is living separated and isolated even that they are considered to be the same species, they differ in pattern or colour for example A. bitaeniata we have a yellow colour form living isolated and separated from the blue colour form, they should also be considered as 2 different species?

I don't state anything, I ask these questions to learn and to understand the logic.

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Re: cross breeding

Post by Carp37 »

racoll wrote:
Suckermouth wrote:Hybridization never results in speciation
It can do actually. See here.
There are also a number of fish groups that are tetraploid- e.g. the catostomid "suckers" of North America- I think these are believed to have originated from hybridisation events, but maybe someone with more current knowledge might dispute that.
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Re: cross breeding

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I have never heard about natural tetraploidy in Catostomus Suckerfish species.
We consider them a "rough fish" and most caught suckers are left on the river bank for the raccoons and skunks.
We have millions of them up to 30 inches long.
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Re: cross breeding

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apistomaster wrote:I have never heard about natural tetraploidy in Catostomus Suckerfish species.
I'm sure they have a much higher than usual chromosome count- maybe it's only proposed that their high chromosome count came about via tetraploidy, possibly by hybridisation. The books/papers I read this in would be 30-40 years old now.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by Carp37 »

http://www.wdc-jp.biz/pdf_store/isj/pub ... /34415.pdf

The above pdf confirms that they're tetraploid- thought I was going crackers there!
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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

I looked using Google and found this:
http://www.wdc-jp.biz/pdf_store/isj/pub ... /34415.pdf
Catostomus commersoni is a common local species.
It does indeed have an unusually high chromosomal count; 2n=96-100.
I have been amazed but I have caught a few large specimens on weighted fly imitations of a large stone fly nymph.
Their chromosomes are much more numerous than the fish I have read more about their karyotypes; Old World Killiefish. 2n=~40 is closer to theirs.
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Re: cross breeding

Post by apistomaster »

Hi carp,
That was a tie on who got to Google first.
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