Glossary questions and requests

Discussion of things people would like to see added to the site, as well as changes to design layout. Also, help for people trying to work out technical issues. You should also report bugs, spelling mistakes here, queries and corrections to the cat-elog should also be posted here.
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Post by Silurus »

I wonder if Corydoras is the only catfish group with the leading spine ... ?
No, loricariids have it, as does Sisor.
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Post by Deb »

In that case,

"Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue, and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as Corydoras and certain loricariids, for example Sisor."

Does that work? We don't need to say it's small, or anything about characins, and we only mention catfishes as an example because this is a catfish site.

What do you say?

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Post by Silurus »

I might point out that Sisor is NOT a loricariid.
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Post by Deb »

Sorry. I thought you meant "for example, Sisor." I should have checked it, when the name sounded unfamiliar.
Revised:

"Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface located between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue, and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as Corydoras, certain loricariids, and Sisor, the Indian whiptail catfish."

Okay to go?

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Post by Deb »

Here's what I have for the topic of synonymy:

" Synonym - each of two (or more) different names for the same taxon, or taxonomic entity; another name for the same thing (that is, the same taxonomic entity, such as that which genus and species denote.) If one name is older (senior synonym) than another, that name has priority over the younger (junior synonym) name.

" Synonyms may exist on every taxonomic level. On Planet Catfish we usually see synonyms at the species level. Example: "These would be Vandellia cirrhosa. Vandellia plazaii is a junior synonym. "

" Junior synonym â?? the younger (later established) name of two synonyms. "

" Senior synonym â?? the older (earlier established) name of two synonyms. "


This next one is hard to paraphrase. I came up with this:

" Subjective synonym - a name whose synonymy with one or more other names is a matter of opinion. "


I checked this next one out with HH first, and he said it was good to go:

" Objective synonym â?? each of two or more synonyms that indicate named taxonomic entities (taxonomic taxa) - that is, species, genera, etc., known as nominal taxa - having the same name-bearing type, that is, the holotype (neotype, if no holotype), lectotype, or a syntype series, and referencing a name-bearing type at the species level, or a type species at the genera level, or a type genera at the family level, and so on up the hierarchy. "

" Want to learn more? More discussion and much cross-referencing can be found in the Glossary of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (iczn) here: http://www.iczn.org/iczn/index.jsp "

Amanda, if you want to add the reference to the iczn, it might be a good idea. You may not want to link it, just mention it ... ?
Whatever you think is best.

Deborah :D
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Post by Marc van Arc »

deb wrote: "Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface located between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue, and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as Corydoras, certain loricariids, and Sisor, the Indian whiptail catfish." Deborah
Would you consider this pls?

"Adipose fin - a fin on the dorsal surface located between the dorsal fin and the caudal fin, composed of fatty tissue and (rarely) a hard, leading ray or a few soft rays, as seen in some catfishes, such as most Callichthyidae, Loricariidae and Sisor, the Indian whiptail catfish (Sisoridae)."
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Post by Deb »

Well, if you're asking me, I think it's excellent! :D
Do you think you should italicize Sisor?
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Post by Marc van Arc »

deb wrote:Well, if you're asking me, I think it's excellent!
The credits are yours. All I did was delete a comma and change some names.....

deb wrote:Do you think you should italicize Sisor?
Yes, to indicate that it isn't a family name.
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Post by bronzefry »

I love it Marc and Deb! I'll put adipose fin in today. :D I was reading Dr. Warren Burgess' A Complete Introduction To Corydoras And Related Catfishes last night(page 14 diagram). He broke this anatomy down in to two parts: the adipose fin and the adipose fin spine. Is there any validity to the term adipose fin spine? I wonder if every author has his or her own way of describing things.

The ICZN is quite a work. I'm just going into the glossary for now. I took taxonomy out because I don't think I was complete in the definition. Here's another go at it:
"The theory and practice of classifying organisms." It's the same in ICZN and Audubon(who probably used ICZN).

What's throwing me with the synonym definitions is that I'm looking up definitions for words in the definition. This ought to help me:

Taxon: "A group or group of populations which are related. A taxon has charactaristics which separates it from other populations."

Nominal Taxa:" A taxon which is denoted by an available name."

Taxonomic Taxon: (Whoever came up with this term??)
Thanks for all the input. :headbang: (I'm going to print up what's been posted over the past 24 hours and see if I have a better understanding of synonyms, in the Icthyological sense.)
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Post by bronzefry »

If there are no more comments with the synonym bunch, I'll put them in later today. Nicely done, Folks! I want to enter those four terms at once. If someone sees Objective Synonym, but not Synonym, it may cause some confusion. :wink:

While I have a moment, I'm going to re-enter Taxonomy.

I also just got a copy of the book The World Of Catfishes by Midori Kobayagawa. What a resource for a novice like me. The chapter near the end on anatomy and physiology labeled "Introduction" is very helpful. The Weberian Apparatus is amazing. The swimbladder awaits me tonight. 8)
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Post by Deb »

I also just got a copy of the book The World Of Catfishes by Midori Kobayagawa.
That sounds like a really good book. I'll look for it.

Would you agree to reword this:
"Nominal Taxa: A taxon which is denoted by an available name."

to this:
"Nominal Taxon (pl. taxa): A taxon which is denoted by an available name."

A taxonomic taxon seems to be a taxon with a name determined from the nominal taxa in its ranks!
I'm sure that's a simple view.

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Post by bronzefry »

Deb,
Is the proper way to to the "plural" bit at the beginning? :?:

Here's the original from ICZN for Taxonomic Taxon:
"A taxon (e.g. family, genus, species) including whatever nominal taxa and individuals a zoologist at any time considers it to contain in his or her endeavour to define the boundaries of a zoological taxon (q.v.). A taxonomic taxon is denoted by the valid name determined from the available names of its included nominal taxa."

I believe it has something to do with the individual scientist and his/her work. Another dictionary has basically the same: http://www.briancoad.com/Dictionary/introduction.htm but it has been re-worked.

Here's my preliminary version:
Taxonomic Taxon: "A taxon which is pertinent to a zoologist in his/her field of study to help define the boundaries of a zoological taxon."

Zoological Taxon:"A natural taxon of animals which may or may not be named."

Natural Taxon: "A taxon with a unique evolutionary decent."

We began with "synonym" and one word leads to another and another. Let's get the "taxon" words squared away. How are we doing?
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Post by Silurus »

I would stick to just defining "taxon" and leaving out the rest. As a practising taxonomist, I must say that is the first time I have encountered "zoological taxon" and "taxonomic taxon".
Seriously, how often do those phrases crop up on this website? Let's not get carried away here...
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Post by Deb »

Amanda wrote:
Is the proper way to to the "plural" bit at the beginning?

That's where the regular dictionary puts it, and I just copied them!

I like your prelim on taxonomic taxon. I just added a little more. How about this?

"Taxonomic Taxon: A taxon including any nominal taxa and individuals pertinent to the study of a particular zoologist in defining the boundaries of a zoological taxon."

That way we get to mention nominal taxa again, and keep the cross-referencing going.

( BTW, my description in the previous post was a little tongue-in-cheek, but it included this idea, from the iczn definition:
"A taxonomic taxon is denoted by the valid name determined from the available names of its included nominal taxa." )

What do you think of this for taxon:
"Taxon: A population or group of populations with characteristics in common which separates it from other such populations; a taxonomic unit or entity."

It's basically the same as yours, but it brings in the phrases "taxonomic unit" and "entity" which were used freely in the other descriptions. I feel like we need to use the same phrases and descriptions in these definitions, so that people will see how they go together. Do you think so?
You've got nominal taxon and zoological taxon (new one!) ready to go, I think. The others should be chiming in at any minute ... of course, it's probably midnight where they live ... :lol:

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Post by Silurus »

Here is a basic neurocranium (skull) picture for use in defining the bones.

Ultimately, I think the guide should be interactive, so that when one moves the cursor over a particular bone, it is shaded out in color and the name is displayed. If someone volunteers to color out each bone, I can provide a larger pic and the names.

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Post by Silurus »

Something like this:

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Post by Deb »

If it's as simple as it looks, I volunteer to color out each bone. If it involves learning how to use a program, I could probably learn it but someone would have to take the time to show me.

So, if that won't work, maybe there is someone who already knows how to do this ...

Also, I see you (HH) and I posted at exactly the same time, 11:18 pm, earlier. I didn't get to read yours, before I posted mine. I admit to getting carried away! (Is there an embarrassed Bugs Bunny grin emoticon?)

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Post by bronzefry »

Seriously, how often do those phrases crop up on this website? Let's not get carried away here...
Two minds of a single thought, HH. :D I was going to post something quite similar. I apologize for getting out of hand. I'm trying to run a marathon before I learn to walk. I'm also thinking of leaving out Objective Synonym and Subjective Synonym for now. We don't see these on Planet Catfish. But, we see Synonym, Junior Synonym and Senior Synonym. The work you've done on these terms is fabulous, Deb. I've tried to pare this down a bit:
Synonym: "In general, another name for the same thing. In zoology, each of two(or more) different names for the same taxon or taxonomic entity."

Junior Synonym: "The later established of two synonyms. A Senior Synonym has priority over a Junior Synonym."

Senior Synonym: "The earlier established of two synonyms. A Senior Synonym has priority over a Junior Synonym"

HH, there was a photo in the Corydora section a few weeks back with a close-up of a dorsal fin. The spine and rays were numbered.http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=15035

I can help with the illustrations. :wink:
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Post by Deb »

I agree. Let's leave out Objective and Subjective Synonyms. I like your final definitions of Synonym, Junior, and Senior, and if HH agrees, I think we should go with those. Since the word "taxon" comes up in the definition for synonym, how can we leave it out? Would you agree to add taxon to the glossary?

"Taxon: A population or group of populations with characteristics in common which separates it from other such populations; a taxonomic unit or entity."

Thanks for the nice words. I don't regret one single minute I spent on those definitions. :D I learned a tremendous amount, and I know it will be put to good use at some time.

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Post by Silurus »

Amanda,

Do you have any experience with vector graphics programs (like Adobe Illustrator)? The coloring of the bones are easiest done in those.
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Post by bronzefry »

Deb, this will be a continuous process. Some terms will be more problematic than others. Some times will be crazier, due to work(the kind that earns the fish food). So, feel free to pop in and participate as little or as much as you wish. :wink:

Silurus, I have Adobe Photoshop Elements for graphics(I don't think Autocad will work for this).
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Post by Silurus »

Amanda,

I have not tried this in Photoshop (it is very likely possible), and I have no idea if there might be features missing in Elements (since I work with the full version of Photoshop) that might hinder this process.

The easiest way to do this is to trace the outline of each bone as a closed shape, and then have the program color the shape. You might want to download the unedited image from the earlier post and see if you can color the bones (I suggest that you create a new layer, use the pencil tool to trace the outline as a closed shape, and then change the fill color...I used pure red at 50% transparency). If that can be done, remember to merge all layers before saving to reduce file size.
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Post by Silurus »

Not terribly difficult once you get the hang of it:

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Post by MatsP »

Silurus/Amanda,

Photoshop elements should be fine for this - it's only some of the really advanced functions in the "proper" PhotoShop that is missing in Elements - it's still got layers, almost all of the drawing tools and most of the filters. It's also got a "more user friendly interface" which I personally don't like because I'm more used to "proper" PhotoShop - but it's almost all there...

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Post by Deb »

When time permits, here's a couple more to consider adding:

Contaminant - A term used by fish importers to identify a fish not of the same species as the shipment. Some hobbyists scour the shops hoping to find contaminants!

Pelvic - of the pelvis, or hips. For fins, another name for ventral fins.

Papilla - pl. papillae, a small projecting body part, as in genital papilla.

I've seen the term "papillae" used in books to describe the regular rows of bumps forming "lines" from head to tail on banjo catfish but I didn't see it used that way in the Cat-e-log.

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Post by Silurus »

The bumps on the skin are usually referred to as tubercles, although I think the difference between the two terms is slight (tubercle appears to be used when the structure is more keratinized).
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Post by MatsP »

I'd like to add
Benthopelagic - living near bottom but also swimming in mid- or upper waters.
Pelagic - Living away from the bottom. Opposite of benthic.

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Post by Marc van Arc »

That's odd. I was also checking pelagic, due to the sentence: Ageneiosidae are pelagic species, in which pelagic means of the open water and living near the surface.
Yet all dictionaries I've checked seem to link pelagic to oceans/seas/large bodies of salt water.
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Post by Deb »

I was just looking into this too. Pelagic always says the "open sea"; the emphasis is definitely on "open" in every case. I think Mats is right about the character of pelagic implying away from the bottom and out in the open, but the word does seem to apply just to seawater.

Benthic means at the bottom of any body of water, seawater included.

I couldn't find a synonym for freshwater or an antonym for "pelagic" or "benthic".

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Post by MatsP »

Looking at Fishbase, they do refer to Benthic as "Body of water", and only relevant "see also" is Pelagic, which talks mostly about oceans but also uses the term "Body of water", which is not necessarily meaning salty water.

Also, fishbase uses pelagic in it's description of Neon and Cardinal Tetra, which to me says that it's fine for freshwater fish (and not just a typo on one fish either).

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