"Like" feature?

[TwoTankAmin]

Well let me see-

I am a member here, which so far has no such system.
I am a member on Finarama, an expert wild anglefish site, and it has no such system.
I am a member on zebrapleco.com and it has no such system.
I used to be an active member on AquaBid and moderated their chat for a few years and they have no such system.
I am a member on EastCoastCichlids and they have no such system.
I am a member and article contributor on FishForums.net and they have no such system.
I was a member and mod at Tom'sPlace, now defunct, and it had no such system
I am an inactive member on MonsterFishKeepers and they have no such system.
I am an inactive member on AquariaCentral and they have no such system.
I am a long departed member on FishForums.com and they have no such system.
I was a member on Plecofanatics, but walked away from there as it did have such a system. That site folded because it tore itself apart.

PlantetCatfish has managed to become what it is today without having used such a system so far.

+1 type systems are never inaugurated as popularity contests, they simply degenerate into them sooner or later. And I am not willing to say say why people join specialty sites or any sites. Some probably join to learn, others to teach, still others to do a bit of both and many join just to read. Here is what I can say about the membership here.

There are 515 pages that contain the membership list. When sorted by post count from fewest to most, pages 1-23 are all 0 posts, page 24-133 are all members with only 1 post and pages 134-222 are members with just 2 posts. That means about 43% of the members have between 0 and 2 posts since they joined. I wonder why those people joined but never really participated? I do not pretend to know, but maybe somebody smarter than I does. Just please do not tell me it is because there is no +1 system here

Nobody joins because such a system is on a site, but they may not join or they will leave because of it, and that is the problem.

I grow weary of this discussion. I have made my points, folks can consider or ignore them as they feel fit.

[dpm1]

I count that as 10 sites that didn't use it, 1 site that 'tore itself apart'...but was it because of a 'like/dislike' system, or would it have happened even if it wasn't present? - and good mods should be monitoring for disruptive threads and users anyway, especially if there is a flagging system, so obviously they weren't doing the job of calming things down.

If its not used it cannot be judged as a success/failure only as untried. Is there evidence of it even being discussed?

Nobody joins because such a system is on a site, but they may not join or they will leave because of it, and that is the problem.

...And they may also not join, or leave for many, many other reasons.

If you read my suggestions I never said to use a simple points scoring system therefore removing the whole idea of 'I have more rep than you do!' arguments. I also said to keep the actual like/dislike comments on profile pages so it does not distract from the thread and posts.

Imo big posts over very little and nothing gained from it. Playing number games and dropping names doesn't win arguments in my book as I can do equal in return, except in choose not to. Instead I offered a way around the pure numbers game that Facebook 'friends' has turned in to.
...
Counting members vs posts is an odd argument to use and totally irrelevant in these days of ever sophisticated bots and people signing up to sites and forums to which they never return. I thought this site was supposed to be deleting the zero-post members anyway!

[Jools]

Judging by the PM conversations and the input above this is clearly a divisive subject. It is also clear that as dpm1 says, dis/like is much more than a point scoring exercise (and, while we are at it, the my cats/aquaria/blogs section of the sites are one of a real success story's and they most closely resemble social media models).

I might be picking this up wrong, but I seem to read that users of a like system (e.g. Facebook) have in this thread all said this is a good idea (or are neutral/haven't posted) and those who said it's not a good idea are not users of such a system.

The "yoof" are already past using Facebook and on to other things (wouldn't you? I mean all your parents are on FB and isn't it embarrassing when your Dad posts his latest candy crush score or Mom likes a dodgy 80's pop band?) but it is still used as a channel for reaching a wider base (e.g. relatives, products). Facebook's days might be numbered, but how we interact, socially, online has a much longer sell by date.

Also, to aid debate, here's a piece by the BBC on Facebook dislikes which also covers like farming - the latter is fortunately not a problem we are likely to have! We're rather unlikely to ever reach Facebook's ~1.5 billion active users or indeed have our accounts become close to online passports-lite.

Anyway, I wanted to make the point that a dis/like provides a potential much more than I think the average user initially understands. At present, I can track a users journey through the site. As with any website, I can tell which website you came from, where you go on this site, what you spend time on and I can look at data you've posted such as topics, my cats and so on. This is the same for any website, Facebook or not. And, if you're logged in, I can associate that usage with an account belonging to a person. Again, standard practice across the web these days. What I don't do much of, but should look at doing more of, is changing what the user sees at Planet based on that information. However, to my mind, that's a very careful design call as to many it can be a bit unsettling that when they return to a site, that picture of, say, Dave Rinaldo's syno that they've been drooling over recently, appears "conveniently" on the front page.

So dis/like functionality makes that covert presentation of your usage data back at you more transparent. If you and five others like a species or like a forum post, then I can begin to introduce features that show you species, threads or whatnot that interest you or others like you. It becomes logical to the user to like things that they want to see more of. In the context of Shane's original request, while it is useful for saying thank you/cool post while not posting a trivial reply, it also, as a very useful by-product, gives an insight into what people think is cool and good.

Jools

[dpm1]

I'll also point out there are much easier ways to play the 'oneupmanship' game on this forum if so desired than just a hypothetical throwing of like/dislikes around.

Number of posts - displayed on every mini profile on every thread. Simply post anything, anywhere.

Species kept - This is very much a trust based system as very few will ever be checked on in person, or even confirmed via posting images or through detailed information logging.

Breeders table - Again very much based on trust. Because its displayed as a points system there nothing stopping people adding false reports with minimal supporting information in order to simply work their way up the table. (I must update my log and check my score. Also check out exactly how the scoring table works anyway as my Entomocorus gameroi currently have 0 breeders logged and may be worth pushing up the queue for a 1st-breeder double points bonus (or however it works ))

[bekateen]

Jools, while I appreciate your points about custom tailoring content to fit a user based upon their past likes/dislikes or based on which pages they visit most often, I must say that I've never been a fan of that ability on-line. I've learned a lot about fish and fishkeeping here precisely because a bunch of fish I'd never heard of, haven't previously been interested in, and never owned were presented on the pages, esp. the front page, of this website. As I've experienced with other websites that customize content, I would fear that customizing PC would simply narrow what I see (at least, what is prioritized to me) and that would make me more of a monotone fish keeper than I'd want to be. I would like to reserve the right to filter what content I see by simply choosing what links I click on; I don't want a computer algorithm deciding what I don't think is important.

Cheers, Eric

[dpm1]

I'm with bekateen on disliking things too customised around my previois searches.

Some people may like to stick to one particular niche but I hover at the top of the forum tree and delve in to threads not just of they are about my 'wish list' but often simply if thy catch my eye with an interesting title, or something I haven't seen or considered before.

The site is already a niche within a broad hobby, personalising content will only narrow peoples views further. For example just because someone only looks at plecs should they only have articles about them aimed at their pages and thus potentially miss out on a myriad in non-pleco specific but equally relevant info from other sub-forums.

[Jools]

It would be a bit more sophisticated than just limiting what you saw, so the concerns above while noted shouldn't be a concern. Firstly, because the content shown will always be random to some degree and thus show you the unexpected things. Secondly, if you're a person with wide tastes / interested in new stuff, you will tend to interact with similar folks and so you will tend to get things you liked (i.e. unrelated / different stuff) back at you while also the "I keep corys and everything else doesn't exist to me" guy will get more of what they like. This stuff can be really quite complex and it's more about the implementation - if you guys tell me how you want it, I can serve it up.

We are a bit off of Shane's original request, I will get back to that soon but I have a couple of long PMs to respond to on this (which is good).

Jools

[TwoTankAmin]

Now Jools has me curious. I go to decent lengths to prevent the sort of tracking he refers to above. First, I wonder how he knows what site I came from since I do not do tabbed browsing. Almost every site I visit is opened in a new window. Further, I try to block tracking and 3rd party cookies and the minute I leave a site by closing its window, its cookie and the cache associated with that window are deleted/cleaned. Moreover, I mostly visit here without logging on. I only log on when I want to post. Finally, I use traker blocking software. For example, right now on this site I should have prevented the following tracking cookies from loading: Google Adsense, Google Analytics and VigLink. I have a PC cookie loaded which is permitted on a session basis and which will be deleted when I close the window. On sites with display ads, I use an ad blocker and ads in that area stop appearing forever.

But more than that I really dislike so called smart software which is designed to think for me. While a computer can do math faster than I can or can spell better, it cannot figure out what I want to see. I tend to disable "smart" technology in devices or to purchase older dumb devices to avoid it. I do not want targeted ads, I do not want pages pushed at me because an algorithm thinks they should interest me.

Here is why I would not like it on this site. I frequently use this site trying to help others. I will look at a good number of pages here which have no bearing on what I like or do. Rather they are viewed on behalf of somebody else. I am mostly a keeper of Hypancistrus species, I have never owned a clown pleco, nor any of the wood eaters, yet I have visited the pages for some of these fish more often than I have viewed zebra information. One I have little or no hands on experience with and will likely never keep and the other I have kept and bred for years. But based on my page views, an algorithm is going to shove information at me I have no desire to see for myself. So rather than a help, this sort of thing becomes an annoyance with no benefit for me.

When I use Google (or most other search engines) I really dislike having the first responses be local or online sites that want to sell me stuff. I take active steps to prevent this. My real issue is not so much that technology makes a lot of things possible, but that the programmers/designers think anything they make is good for everybody.

I am smart enough to find information on the net on my own. In fact, I think I am better at it than most. I know what I am looking for and how to get to it. So once again my request would be similar to the one I made about +1s. If you want to implement this sort of technology here, please also make it possible for members either to turn it off or to choose to continue getting completely random stuff as we do now.

This site has many great features, but using them or not is left up to users. Many folks like to post about spawning a given fish in the breeder area here. I have spawned every single pleco I have kept. It makes me happy, I sell or trade the offspring and I may post in a forum thread now and then about a spawn. However, I do not participate in the breeder reporting area here. I do not even read other folks breeding reports. That is my choice, however. Nor would I ever request that the breeder sections be removed from the site because I do not use them. Smart technology, to some extent, takes away that option and I consider it invasive as a result.

I know I am not the only one here who doesn't use social media. I doubt I am the only one who dislikes "smart" technology either. I have watched television all my life. I am not a real fan of the commercials. When they come on I change the channel or get up to grab a snack or go to the bathroom. On sites that push stuff at me, that option becomes leave the site. I do not have to turn off the TV program I am watching to avoid the ads, I just return to my program after the ads are done. But on a site if I leave and return, I still get the same stuff I don't want pushed at me. There is a difference between having a random cat picture show up with each visit and having things pushed at me that software has deduced I want to see. Algorithms cannot read my mind and I wish they would stop trying. It gives me a headache.

I drink Pepsi so I like it. Clicking +1 about drinking Pepsi would seem simple, but they use high fructose corm syrup to sweeten it. I buy the sugar sweetened Pepsi since it became available and will not buy the regular Pepsi any more. So now what should I click relative to Pepsi in general. I can argue for clicking both +1 and -1. Life is not so simple as to reduce things to single clicks or for smart technology to be as smart as people think.

BTW- if FaceBook wants to shoot itself in the foot, let it implement a dislike vote. Lets the wars begin. Please Mike Z., I vote for for it .

[Jools]

Good questions.

First, I wonder how he knows what site I came from since I do not do tabbed browsing. Almost every site I visit is opened in a new window.

If you always visit this site by opening a new tab manually or by launching a new instance of your browser then there is no site to track where you came from. Just checked and over the past 31 days, 16.39% of "visitors" to the site arrived this way.

Further, I try to block tracking and 3rd party cookies and the minute I leave a site by closing its window, its cookie and the cache associated with that window are deleted/cleaned. Moreover, I mostly visit here without logging on. I only log on when I want to post. Finally, I use traker blocking software. For example, right now on this site I should have prevented the following tracking cookies from loading: Google Adsense, Google Analytics and VigLink. I have a PC cookie loaded which is permitted on a session basis and which will be deleted when I close the window. On sites with display ads, I use an ad blocker and ads in that area stop appearing forever.

By blocking Google adsense and viglink you reduce the revenue this site makes when you visit, that said, you're a top tier donor to the site and I am quite sure the many donations you've made over the years well outstrip the revenue lost. Google analytics is what picks up all the data that's used for site strategy, the "smart stuff" we're discussing and also helps me understand what's hot and what's not.

But more than that I really dislike so called smart software which is designed to think for me.

I'd suggest my vision of same is more that it augments rather than replaces. I have zero desire to implement anything prescriptive. However, I would make the point with all that effort in blocking the things you mention, you will always have a crap "smart" experience because nothing is known upon which to make a call on what to augment what you normally see.

Here is why I would not like it on this site. I frequently use this site trying to help others. I will look at a good number of pages here which have no bearing on what I like or do. Rather they are viewed on behalf of somebody else. I am mostly a keeper of Hypancistrus species, I have never owned a clown pleco, nor any of the wood eaters, yet I have visited the pages for some of these fish more often than I have viewed zebra information. One I have little or no hands on experience with and will likely never keep and the other I have kept and bred for years. But based on my page views, an algorithm is going to shove information at me I have no desire to see for myself. So rather than a help, this sort of thing becomes an annoyance with no benefit for me.

Depends on the algorithm and if you've switched it on or not. We could switch it off when you visit [most of the dynamic content is controlled as such via your user profile], but we can't because you've blocked everything. That forces you to log in to have the stuff you don't want to see switched off.

My real issue is not so much that technology makes a lot of things possible, but that the programmers/designers think anything they make is good for everybody.

I would suggest that they think (or indeed know) that it's not good for everybody but is for the majority.

I am smart enough to find information on the net on my own. In fact, I think I am better at it than most.

But what of those that are great fishkeepers but not so hot on finding info? What if the majority have different views. My "job" here is to evaluate the experience for everyone. Perhaps those folks who posted once or twice came to the site with a question, got it answered, said thanks and left. If they got a few likes on their thank you, maybe they might venture deeper?

All of this, to bring it back to Shane's point (I've enjoyed the debate / slight wandering off topic), seems to me to be like Christmas presents. "Liking", as Shane described it seemed to be the pleasure of giving not receiving (and avoiding being overtly trivial).

Also, this is not likely a near term thing, I have a years worth of content to add to the site, I am unlikely to develop such a feature in the short term. It's useful to have this discussion though as it means I have plenty to think about in the meantime although I am still not hugely clear why adding "like" functionality means a site implodes..

Jools

[dpm1]

Will the smart tracking be an option or enforced?

If compulsary then opt in or opt out?

Would it be available for new profiles only, or for all eg option placed on individuals profile pages.
....
The issue for me isn't simply being against in-forum data collection, how it's implemented is the krux rather than it being yay/nay on the subject, however the idea the forum is tractkng where I came from and storing the data is surely borderline with regards tracking personal data.

[Shane]

Jools,
Call it "like," "following," or "shoaling" (to use a fish term). I was just looking for a simple way to increase participation without clogging the forum with trivial postings.

I often want to post something like great job, congrats, nice fish, or I am watching this topic unfold... but I also do not want to clog the forum with trivial posts.
-Shane

[racoll]

I'm a +1 for an anonymous upvote/downvote system. I can only see it as a good thing to improve user engagement with the site and offer a more modern experience.

I think most users here are mature enough not to see it as a popularity contest, or systematically target people that they may not like particularly. I imagine most people will use downvotes sparingly, and it will not be a problem.

As Jools points out, it works well on sites like stackoverflow and arstechnica.

[Dave Rinaldo]

Jools,
Call it "like," "following," or "shoaling" (to use a fish term). I was just looking for a simple way to increase participation without clogging the forum with trivial postings.

I often want to post something like great job, congrats, nice fish, or I am watching this topic unfold... but I also do not want to clog the forum with trivial posts.
-Shane

I've followed the forum rules and haven't commented on posts with a 'Smilie'

Trivial posts
Don't take up valuable server and moderator resources by posting a reply that concerns only you and the poster. Send them a Private Message (PM) instead. For instance, say someone from Paris posts "Hey, I've bred zebra plecos, here are the details..." and then someone else replies "Good job!" This reply is an example of trivial post

[dpm1]

I also not a huge fan of those posts that are simply composed of a or +1 (especially if its following a very long quote!)

If bothering to spend time writing a post then why not add a suporting line?
Eg.
From: +1
To: +1. I agree it's a very good idea.

Short, simple and far more informative than a +1 in many cases when referencing previous posts if there is actually more than one issue raised (so is it +1 & +1 (agree absolutely) , or +⅔ and +⅝ (agree on the whole)?)

Like a comment or piece of advice but nothing to add? - that's where a 'like' is useful as well as just to say 'thanks for the info'.
....
Ps. I also hate yes/no answers, and text messages that say 'text/call me'...maddening!!!...text about what? At least give me a clue! ( Tangent!)

[Marc van Arc]

If the +1/-1 feature is going to replace trivial posts, doesn't that imply that the whole +1/-1 thing itself is trivial too? Or is this feature going to use less space?

Also: if you are going to do both (+1; I agree with you), that would make the whole like/dislike thing redundant. In that case just write down what you want to say. Nothing wrong with (good) communication.

Imo not every "modern" thing is good and/or an improvement, therefore I object to implementing it just because of that. Anonymous is also a no go imo, as stated before.

I'm afraid that this will become a popularity thing in the end, so it all comes down to counting.
In this respect I'm with Arthur Lee, front man of the band Love, who already sang in 1967:
"If you want to count me, count me out".

[dpm1]

You can't please everyone every time - with a +1/like feature I'm sure some will still post a simple '+1' or

Maybe it will make threads a little cleaner, and if implement well it may reduce server loads (although I suspect it will just move it across with only slightly savings)

I don't consider these as 'implementing for implementations sake' , or 'because its the modern approach'....it should be done on wether it can create a positive improvement to the user experoemce.
Normally it would be sensible to have a test group, however because of the wide spread of knowledge and experience who would you choose? Random? - I don't believe the forum has enough active members to make a test group a valid proposition for an option that requires actively participating (and of course its likely to be an infrequently used option), plus it would need to be confined within the group which makes it far more difficult in an open environment (it would be an easy option in networks with user groups to have a set test group)

I'm afraid it must be an all or nothing option, regardless if users choose to participate. I fail to subscribe to many of the negatives being banded about, however the positives are difficult to define as its impossible to access the usage and impact before it goes live. Imo it will essentially be a judgement call by whoever throw the switch.

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- lets play +1/-1 for this thread.

I give a -1 to every post by dpm1 since he holds the opposite view as I do.
I give Shane several -1s as well.
I give racoll, Bas Pels, marc and bakateen +1s.

I need not have posted anything myself since I just made my disapproval/disagreement and my approval/agreement known with a few +1 and -1s. And since I did not post, merely rated, there are now no posts by me in this thread that might be rated. And since I prefer not to participate in a rating system, this is how I also avoid the potential to disagree or "retaliate" with a -1.

Is everybody happy now?

[Mol_PMB]

I am a member of several forums with a 'like' or 'thanks' feature, which seems to work well. Some people choose to use it and some don't, but it allows a brief expression of approval without extending threads unnecessarily. It is not anonymous on the forums I am on.

I cannot see a positive benefit in a 'dislike' feature. If you disagree with something, you should explain your reasoning. It is also in my view more prone to abuse if people fall out (which does happen sometimes). I think a 'dislike' feature only has negative connotations.

Let's use a real-life example and say someone thinks my giant Oto is a Hypoptopoma and someone else thinks it's an Oxyropsis.
It's fine for people to 'like' what they think is the correct ID, but if people 'dislike' the ID they think is wrong then that penalises the person who suggested it in good faith (and was very close to the mark). Surely that will discourage people from participating in such discussions?

If someone disagrees with what has been posted (in this example, the caudal peduncle looks wrong for a Hypoptopoma so it's more likely to be an Oxyropsis) then it's great to know that reasoning. Just a -1 or dislike is much less useful.

+1 to agree needs no further explanation, but if the member wish to do so then of course they are free to add a post anyway.

Regards,
Paul

PS I'm still not sure if I have Hypoptopoma or Oxyropsis but that's the subject of another thread...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jac]

I think some salient points are being missed here. So let me offer an example. Most members eventually come to learn who the"resident experts" are on the site. It doesn't take a genius to discern who has extensive experience. So now lets suppose I write a post about breeding zebra plecos. I spend a lot of time and effort to write it.

Over the next week or two I revisit my post and I see that not one of the most respected members here have given my post a +1. Now this may not be due to their not liking it. Some may not have read it figuring they have the knowledge already or did not have the time. Some may simply not bother to +1 one it and some may dislike me enough never to +1 anything I say. Whatever the reasons, from my point of view a piece that I felt had good information etc. apparently did not and that my time and effort were basically wasted. So the next time I wont bother. And then how much time will it take before I might begin to feel there is less reason to visit and to participate? Ask yourselves how the avaergage member might react in a similar situation.

(edited to ad the letter k to make thin into think in the first line)

Sorry to say, but this is already the case. It is for me anyway... With or without the +1 status.
If you look at how many experts we have here, no one really cares to post a reply. I use Facebook wisily (I think). Even if no one reply's but does take the time to like my picture of post (names are included so you can see who does the liking) it boosts up my confidence and I know I'm doing ok. It exactly the way Shane discribes it really. If I post a tread here, which I mostly still do, I get near to zero respons.... It does effect me and that's just being honest.

But I also do understand the other side of the like option. I see the same on fb. But you will always have up and down side about everything.

[jac]

Overthinking what I just commented, it can sound a bit to negative. That's not the case, I didn't want it to sound that way.

I think every body like to get a pat on the shoulder every now and again. It's all down to communication. If my post has been seen let's say 500 times but you only get 0-2 reply's, that's not very incouraging.. If the like option gives a more easier way for people to interact with a tread then I would say yes "like" At least it gives the topic starter some kind of a positive feedback Maybe in our current lifes this is the more modern way to go on forums.

[bekateen]

This site has many great features, but using them or not is left up to users. Many folks like to post about spawning a given fish in the breeder area here. I have spawned every single pleco I have kept. It makes me happy, I sell or trade the offspring and I may post in a forum thread now and then about a spawn. However, I do not participate in the breeder reporting area here. I do not even read other folks breeding reports. That is my choice, however.

Hi TTA,

I know that focusing on this one statement carries us a little off the topic of this thread, and I don't wish to shift the thread focus, but I read your post (quoted here) and I feel compelled to comment:

You are absolutely right when you point out that it is really the prerogative of every user here to take advantage of whichever site features they choose, and to remove themselves (not participate) from every feature they wish to stay out of, and I fully support this perspective. I would, however, like to pick on this one point of the breeder board, and perhaps encourage you to reexamine why you don't fill out your own blogs for the species you have spawned.

I've only been a member on PlanetCatfish for a few months, and I've come to find the blogs to be one of the most accessible and useful features of this site. By reading and comparing the blogs of different people for the same species, I feel like I develop a "bigger picture" understanding about what is and isn't important when it comes to getting a species to spawn - tank conditions that are unimportant to the fish will show high variability from keeper to keeper, whereas conditions that are critical to the fish won't (this brings up a whole other feature I'd like to consider in the future, but with all the 31 bugs/revisions, this is no time to mention it ). Anyway, my point is this: I appreciate your concern that the breeder board points system may make this feature seem like a competition or contest, and it's done on the honor system so keepers' claims aren't independently validated by the site. But for "noobs" like me is, most of the time when our fish spawn, it's because of nothing purposeful or active that we did ourselves; we may fill out a blog, and provide lots of detail, but we might not even recognize which of those details was really important to the fish and which details are extraneous. By contrast, a person like yourself with years of experience and many spawned spp. under your belt has learned various tricks of the trade, so that you can purposefully set up conditions that make spawning more likely. Consequently, if you did fill out blogs for all the spp. you've spawned, those would carry a lot of weight to people like myself because we can tell by your blog score that you are an experienced breeder.

When you post to a forum suggestions to others as to how to breed a particular fish, that's all well and good. But as you know, with all the other forum posts, a person really has to search through the forums to find these details once they get buried by newer posts. But the nice thing about blogs is that they stay right there - easy for the world to find and access - on the species description page. So I guess what I'm saying is this: If you can get past the social /trivial implications of blog points scores, I would encourage you to rethink your position on the blogs, and I would appreciate reading your blogs on fish that I'm also interested in spawning.

I have to admit that I am puzzled and frustrated when I look at a species page and the blog section indicates that nobody has spawned a particular species (i.e., no blog entries exist), and yet the photos for that same species show mating, eggs, parental care and juvenile development! To me, when I see a blog section with no entries, or very few entries, that communicates to me that either this species is extremely difficult to breed or that the species is so rare that nobody has had a chance. And that may discourage me from buying and trying to breed that species because I don't want to end up with a species that I can't spawn.

That's my happy thought for the day.

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

I am not all that good. I have had about 7 species of pleco spawn in my tanks. On this site I am a rank amateur compared to the real pros. In general I am not a blogger or journal keeper. The one exception to that was a thread on Barbie's old site on my zebra experience. I posted to it whenever anything went on in the tank and, allowed folks to ask questions and I think I kept adding to it up until the time the site stopped being there. A copy now resides here http://www.plecoworld.org/modules.php?n ... sc&start=0 That was enough for me for a lifetime.

You are correct about having things on sites be optional to some extent. I find just seeing the breeder lists on each species page is enough for me to find more info if I need it. So I choose not to be involved in breeder reports. I do not suggest that function should be removed and I understand why most people like it. With a rating system, without the ability for one to opt out of it, then there is no choice.

Consider this. If somebody posts something in an area about which I am familiar and reasonably experienced and they say something which I feel is inaccurate, if there might be another way to view it or if I think there is something relevant that was omitted, I will post this. I do not think it is a good idea on any fish site, whether here or a general site, to allow incorrect or incomplete information to be allowed to sit without a response. On the other hand, when I feel the information in a post is pretty good, I see no reason to comment at all if I cannot add something. Therefore, my assumption is that if the information in a post is decent, by members not adding to or challenging it, they are defacto saying +1. To borrow from dpm, I think most members here are intelligent enough to behave in this fashion, so there should be no need for a +1 or -1 system at all.

[bekateen]

TTA, Thanks for the response. I understand your humility relative to "real pros;" seven species of plecos may not be a lot by some standards. But to put your accomplishments in perspective, that's seven more species of plecos than I've spawned!

When you describe your first experience blogging about the zebras, that is not what I had in mind. No, I think I too would tire of writing constantly updated web logs for each species I spawn (even if it's still a short list as of today). But I sure appreciate people sharing what worked for them in the blog records that are kept here at PC, and that's why I contribute to the blogs, too. It's unfortunate that the "blogs" on this site share the same name with the verb "blogging," which connotes that on-going labor of updates in attempt to keep the site "fresh" and "new." True, participants in the PC blogs can return to one of their blogs and add updated photos, etc., but I see the blogs here as being more of a record than a living document - records of water conditions, tank decorations, food regimen (for adults and fry), etc. This is the gold of the blog system.

I find just seeing the breeder lists on each species page is enough for me to find more info if I need it

Okay, but may I point out that if others take the same approach you have - that is not contributing to the blogs, then when you go to a particular species and look at the breeder list (as you say you do), you might find nothing there.

Finally, while the freedom to participate or not might seem similar between a feature such as the blogs and a feature such as the "like" option being discussed in this thread (I'm ignoring the "dislike" option because I see no merit in it whatsoever, for reasons I've already outlined), I would offer that the two really aren't comparable. Features like the blogs build a database - a wealth of information - for users to access, and the success of the database is profoundly influenced by the willingness of PC members to contribute their knowledge; if too many members opt out, then there is no database. By contrast, the like feature is really only a trivial way of saying "good job" or "I agree" or "congratulations" without cluttering up the thread with more and more posts. People can choose to opt out, and still share the same messages of "good job" or "I agree" or "congratulations" just by posting to a thread.

Cheers, Eric

[racoll]

If you look at how many experts we have here, no one really cares to post a reply. I use Facebook wisily (I think). Even if no one reply's but does take the time to like my picture of post (names are included so you can see who does the liking) it boosts up my confidence and I know I'm doing ok. It exactly the way Shane discribes it really. If I post a tread here, which I mostly still do, I get near to zero respons.... It does effect me and that's just being honest.

This was exactly my point earlier. It's disheartening to spend a long time writing a post and nobody responds.

Many times I feel like wanting to interact with forum posts, but have nothing constructive or meaningful say other than "cool", or "nice one" (as everyone knows, posting such trivial content is against forum rules for good reason). Therefore, allowing people to "like" increases participation, engagement and feedback (i.e. it encourages people to post more frequently, I feel).

[NCE12940]

If you look at how many experts we have here, no one really cares to post a reply. I use Facebook wisily (I think). Even if no one reply's but does take the time to like my picture of post (names are included so you can see who does the liking) it boosts up my confidence and I know I'm doing ok. It exactly the way Shane discribes it really. If I post a tread here, which I mostly still do, I get near to zero respons.... It does effect me and that's just being honest.

This was exactly my point earlier. It's disheartening to spend a long time writing a post and nobody responds.

Many times I feel like wanting to interact with forum posts, but have nothing constructive or meaningful say other than "cool", or "nice one" (as everyone knows, posting such trivial content is against forum rules for good reason). Therefore, allowing people to "like" increases participation, engagement and feedback (i.e. it encourages people to post more frequently, I feel).

My feelings as well. I also don't see the need for a *dislike* choice as if one really disagrees with something, one should have something substantive to say and not a simple (and meaningless) *dislike*.

[Narelle]

I might be a little late to add all this, but to provide a different perspective to the like debate:

I am one of those users who loves catfish and loves this site, but very rarely posts. I am young and much less knowledgeable than the active user base here - most all of my knowledge about catfish comes from this site, so I tend more to "lurk" and just read. I would love to more actively participate and should hope to one day be able to call myself an expert on catfish.
However, this site is incredibly intimidating. It certainly isn't your typical forum (which adds to its credibility, for sure) and is very much so governed by the knowledgeable. It is very hard to get involved here when you are new, less knowledgeable, and have little to no credibility of your own to go on.

I think a dislike feature would widen that gap further. Should I, as a new inexperienced user, venture to post something that others disagree with, being met with a barrage of dislikes rather than one person's gentle correction would probably lead me to stop using the forum entirely.
A like feature I think would, if anything, be beneficial in that regard. It would make it easier to interact with other users and begin to break that intimidating barrier.

Given the way this site functions, governed by the knowledgeable, I highly doubt a like feature would dissolve into a popularity contest. That's the sort of thing that happens in places with less intelligent discussion and a larger user base. I am active on the Planted Tank forum and could see that being a potential (though still not definitive) result of such a feature being implemented there, especially with the number of people that post on that sort of site looking for quick fixes and easy answers that they could have easily looked up themselves. But the way this site functions and the content that predominates here, what with the regular taxonomic updates and more scientific discussions, makes it an entirely different situation.

But a like feature also isn't something that the site absolutely needs. I don't see it being used that extensively, after the initial interest, if it is implemented. Planet Catfish functions just fine without it, it would just be a side bonus feature. But it would definitely make me a little more likely to interact with other users.

For those that don't want to use it, you wouldn't need to. You couldn't stop people from liking your posts or profile or however it's implemented, but you could just never like anything yourself and put a note saying so in your signature, if you're concerned that not doing so might offend people.

As for assuming that you're right with no responses, I don't think that's really a great way to handle things. What if the people that have viewed my thread don't feel that they know enough about the subject to weigh in? How am I to know if that's the case or that they agree? I could as easily assume that no one is interested in my topic or that my thread title did not grab the attention of the people that would be able to help (even if just by affirming my points). And depending on the section of the forum I post in, that might affect who views my threads as well. My interest is mostly in Asian species, but that doesn't mean someone who primarily keeps plecos wouldn't be able to add insight to my post - but the Asian catfish section doesn't seem to get much traffic. So my thread might just not be getting responses because the right people aren't seeing it. Threads left unanswered like this, on the assumption that the user who posted them understands that silence should be taken as affirmation of their views, could lead a newer user like myself to get discouraged and give up on the forums.

And I think giving the like/dislike feature only to experts would be a terrible move that would just further segregate the community and make it even more incredibly intimidating for new users (though it might not bother those already active because they would better understand the point of the distinction).

All that said, I love the idea mentioned of being able to like certain species, especially if we would then have access to a list of those species or perhaps a separate page to navigate to of algorithm-generated most recent posts relevant to the species we've expressed interest in. I would rather that weren't the main page, though, as that is how I find most of the threads I read.

(Sorry this post is so disorganized, I was trying to address various points brought up throughout the thread.)

[bekateen]

@Narelle, That is really a really good perspective, and well said. Thank you. I "like" your post.

[Jools]

@Narelle, That is really a really good perspective, and well said. Thank you. I "like" your post.

Yup, I agree. I am interesting in the intimating nature of the site too. It's something that specialist clubs in the real world suffer from as much as websites.

I am learning and finding the discussion very useful.

Slightly related, but many may not know or have forgotten about it, but there is a forum usage tracker hidden away...

Jools

[Mol_PMB]

As a member for less than a year, I am far from an expert, still feeling my way with catfish-keeping. I agree that the site can sometimes feel intimidating and think Narelle has put it very well. However, it's a great resource and I am always amazed with the patience shown by the experts to us newbies.

When someone posted an ID request a couple of days ago while I was online, I thought to myself, 'Oooh,for once I think I know this one, it's a Brachyrhamdia.' But I very nearly didn't post for fear of being wrong and looking stupid. I did post, and then had my heart in my mouth until a few of the more experienced members agreed. It's nice to feel that I'm just starting to know enough to give something back, rather than just asking the questions.

In some ways being a little intimidating is a positive thing because it discourages people from posting knowledge unless they're sure of it, but it can be hard for the newbie (who is, after all, the future of the forum).

Back to the subject of 'likes', one of the other forums I am on counts not just the number of likes received, but also the number of likes given. The former is a good indicator of how much experience and/or respect the member has, while the latter is almost a measure of how grateful someone is for advice given, or how appreciative they are of other people's achievements.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[krazyGeoff]

happy new year PC.
I have come late to this discussion and I would really like a like button, because there is some stuff I like on page 1, page 2, and page 3 of this topic.
The only way I have to do that currently is to "quote" those posts and give them a +1 in my post, which is all very well and good, but the discussion has evolved, and all that would do is potentially annoy the active participants.
This is very much like joining a conversation (in real life) near its middle, or arriving late to a meeting (real world again). To be forever asking for old stuff to be repeated is just annoying for the folks who "were on time".
Amazon has a "was this review helpful? Yes/no" function, and as far as I know only the helpful results show?
I also understand where JAC and TTA, are coming from in regard to some posts take a lot of effort, and often people may not be able to help, but do appreciate the effort, and commenting will not help so no comment is made, leaving the poster wondering.......
One way around the "like" feature would be to allow a like type comment to be placed on the original post rather than in the sequential timeline of the topic conversation; however this may cause more issues with topic fragmentation.
I also totaly get what Narelle is saying. When I first joined I had many questions and was happy to post about those, but was unwilling to comment on others posts in case I made a dick of myself, or faced the wrath of an "expert", or simply my "style" was misinterpreted due to the global reach of this site and the many many different cultures and native languages of the participants. Kiwi humour doesn't always translate well without facial expressions, and translators are sometimes not correct.
I don't like the dislike button option, as I think that dislikes should always come with an explanation.
In addition I also think that with the number of forums and other sites that everyone participates in these days that people's time is more precious. I know that I go on the forums less now, than I did a few months ago, and stuff that I like, but doesn't polarise me, doesn't get the time needed to make a decent and thought out comment.
Therefore being able to give a positive affermation to the poster would be of use to me.
I do not necessarily understand the concept of the "popularity contest", however it would be quite simple to police, and add to the moderator function. It would be quite simple (wouldn't it Jools) to have an "alert" sent to the mods when a post gets more than "x" likes and for the mod to look at that post and decide if they information was "correct" and then mark that post as "no longer requiring moderating", if the information was "incorrect" then the mod could zero the likes and lock the like feature (or whatever), which would also mean a preference could be made of people to opt out of having their posts liked.
"Experts" could also be exempt from this monitoring, as one would expect them to a) be more likely to be correct and b) not be interested in popularity........
Cheers

Geoff.