HMF Questions

[JamesFish]

Did a little cut and it was a wonky cut on my part causing the issues now its a little wavy but okay.

Filled the tank and the output from a air pump is surprising. Despite the air stone being a tight fit in my view its lifting a good amount of water guess I still have a further learning curve to go. No fish in yet but will people know how it goes.

Despite 1 end of the tank being ugly with a slim packer in place it does overall not look to bad as no wires going in the tank, pipes, or big canister sitting next to the tank. Oh and it hides the heater nicely. I always struggle to hide them!

[bekateen]

Hi All,

In some other threads on this site (with a link to the subject listed earlier in this thread), mention has been made that certain plecos have a habit of chewing on HM foam. While that may not pose a problem for all spp, it seems to be more important for large species and for fish like Panaques (and should I infer by extension the Panaqolus too, or any other wood eaters? I don't know). Anyway, here's another HM-filter question for you:

Does anybody bother to place plastic grids or screens over the front of their HM foam in order to prevent plecos from chewing on that foam? If so, how is it working for you (and do you have a photo to share); if not and you have any of these munching plecos, why not?

Thanks, Eric

[pleconut]

I was thinking also in investing in some of the corner filters, but me too would be considering putting them to use in Panoquolus tanks, one of which has 8 L397s. Another with only 2, Panoquolus Albomaculatus, possibly more may follow for this tank. I am due to add to my Panaqolus population by 6 Panoquolus Albivermis very soon. Obviously they can potentially clog up filters with sawdust if its not done right, and then there's the possibility of them eating the foam. An external for example could deal with the mechanical removal if circulation pumps are in put the right places. But it would also be helpful to know if there's a way to prevent them munching on the foam. As still some sawdust, not poop necessarily, but rather what comes away when they scrape the wood will collect on the surface, I should think. In my opinion, this will attract them even moreso to chew on the foam.

[TwoTankAmin]

Have not done it, but here are what I would think is an issue and how to get around it. HMF work because all the organic waste gets sucked in and over time broken down into ever smaller pieces until it comes out the back side. if one places a screen or fine mesh on the "intake" side. it will clog and that will then cause the filter to clog and not worm.

So what I would suggest here is to use a piece of plastic egg crate. This should stop the plecos but minimally inhibit flow through the HMF.

[pleconut]

Thanks TTA I have four times 4×1×1 ft tanks. 3 of which I was thinking of using as breeders for my various Panaqolus Species tanks are not too deep so easy access. So far it seems I have 2 males out of my 8 L397s, i think 6 females, but it's not a definite, as a couple are still not definitively sexable. A pair of LDA031s, and I'm due to collect 6 L204s soon. I would most likely thin the numbers out once I have a good sex ratio of them. So at the very least male ratios are safe in terms of potential territorial implications, I'm thinking of using these as my breeders, but with the other tank as a sump for the biological filtration aspect , and the mechanical aspect with externals going to each tank. This is another option but right now it's obviously not clear cut. I'd be interested to know how your sump set up works, if I find in the future this is another option.

[bekateen]

Thanks TTA.

Yes, the product you show, or something like it, is what I had in mind. And yes, it would require routine maintenance (vacuuming and maybe occasional rinsing) to keep the holes clear. It seems to me that a product like this would solve the chewing (but not also the accelerated clogging from all the wood poop - that's a different matter).

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

I was also thinking, can a thin layer of foam be placed in front that can be cleaned more frequently that can collect the more fibrous sawdust. I've so far not looked into it much to know exactly how it would work, with this as a possibility.

[TwoTankAmin]

yw eric.

I doubt the foam will clog all that fast. I do find that my wood naturally breaks down and that puts an additional load on the Matten. I do occasionally siphon the front side in one tank in particular. But my plecos tanks have a lot of wood plus rock and slate in them. Based in the instructions that an HMF needs to be cleaned when the water level behind it is lower than that in the tank, I have not come close to clogging one. I assume this also applies to a corner Matten.

I would love to know how that sump works as well. It has been a conspiracy. The tank and sump and homemade stand have been in place for way too long without being put into use. About 2 years ago I set up a temp 50 gal. in front of it. Now it is a 50 over a 40B in the way. Every time I think I am scaling back, something comes up and I find myself adding temporary tanks. Most of the problem relates to spawning plecos or finding something new I have wanted for a long time.

One thing I did get working was the twin HMF design somewhere in the thread. I put it on the L173b tank. It is working great and I have had at least one spawn since it went in. In my case, it upgraded the total amount of foam from 3 to 4 inches, but half at each end of the tank. There is no reason one could not use 3 inches at each end.

Also, one can use more than one sheet choosing two different ppis. Apparently one can glue them together. For example, you could have a 10 ppi follwed by a 3 inch 20 ppi. The first foam catches the larger stuff and as it breaks down only smaller pieces hit the 20 ppi.

I would suggest you email Stephan Tanner at Swiss Tropicals and ask for his thoughts. He is Mr. Poret, a pleco breeder and very willing to help. So far all of his suggestions I have followed have worked out great. I ran the twin Matten design by him before I installed it.

[pleconut]

Thanks I will email him and find out what my options are. The three tanks will all go above on a rack but there is enough room for one to be used as a sump underneath the rack at floor level.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
There is now a guy in the UK selling HMF foam and "jetlifters", <http://www.fishphilosophy.co.uk/>. I don't know whether it is Poret foam <http://www.emw.de/en/aquaristikfilter.html>

The German suppliers of the jetlifters are Beck & Harich <http://www.luftheber-shop.de/>.

cheers Darrel

[Mol_PMB]

I've made several HMFs with the jetlifters and foam from fishphilosophy and am very happy with them.

[bekateen]

Hi TTA,

Thanks for the personal experience story re: clogging and not clogging. I am basing my concern simply on what others have written elsewhere in the forum, but assuming you keep some hearty wood eaters, then I think the occasional vacuuming should be sufficient to keep the HMFs running for months at a time, if not longer.

My primary concern has been the chewing, and I think some kind of plastic grill would be more than sufficient without impairing function.

I've visited the swisstropicals website several times and read its materials, but I've held off on buying any HMFs until I could sort this out to my own satisfaction.

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

eric-

I do not keep the messy wood eaters. My wood does make most of the mess in tanks, but nothing like the wood eaters can generate. But, no matter what filter setup one uses, I would bet those fish tax it. The advantage to using the HMF is not only its volume, but its massive surface area. It is a lot easier to clog the surface of almost any other filter than an HMF. Even if clogging is an issue, it will happen way less often. So I think you are correct that the only issues is pleco chewing.

Like I said, drop Dr. T. and email, he will answer. If I were going to the NJAS event next Thursday where he is a speaker, I would ask him for you. Unfortunately, I decided to pass since I am going to another event in a few weeks where he is giving the same talk plus another. There will be a lot more time to talk with him then as it is a full weekend event. If you can wait until early April, I am happy to discuss it with him then.

[bekateen]

Thanks TTA,

I'm in no rush, but I will be setting up a new tank, likely to be a 75 gal, in April or May.

I have messaged the guy at Swiss Tropicals before but he didn't respond to my message- people are busy and it probably slipped through the cracks of time.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

If I get round to setting up a Panoquolus species tank, using one of these filters before you get round to the 75 gal, I'll let you know how I get on.

[TwoTankAmin]

I finally grabbed a few shots of my HMF setups. Here is the 3 inch 20 PPI in the tank I have with tons of wood viewed from the dirty front side and then the end against the front glass. It is dirty (note it uses a DIY return spraybar):

Here is he tank with the twin Mattens at each end and then a close up of the return which uses a pump but then the output is a powehead piece. Also shown is the spraybar I DIYed for the return:

I hope this helps folks with ideas for their own setups.

Last comment- in smaller tanks such as a 20 long with an HMF I use the standard Jetlifter and an air pump. The pumps I am using with the others are Eheim Compact Hobby pumps- the smaller models which have flow controls.

[2wheelsx2]

I like the spray bar idea but I would guess that you would need to use a water pump to drive it and not an airpump, which would really reduce the usable size of a 15 gallon.

[TwoTankAmin]

You are correct that a pump requires more space behind the foam. I use a pump/spraybar in spawning tanks because the fish are adults and they need lots of oxygen in the water. In smaller tanks for growout I am fine with air power. Also, with the dual design the 2nd return is intended to create flow across the cave mouths. As a result, the return is completely submerged and does not do anything much to help with oxygenation. I have other grow out tanks which use only Poret cubes run on air power.

The goal is to match the type of filtration with the purpose of the tank.

The main advantages to using Poret are its quality and specifications which create the second major benefit, they do not need to be cleaned as often as other filter media. This reduces my workload which makes it worth every dollar spent on this media. I tend to rinse the ATI sponge filters weekly and the Poret cubes only every 3-4 weeks. Mattens can go a whole lot longer without needing maint.

[2wheelsx2]

Yes I use a powerhead and a second airstone even in my fry tanks to get the oxygenation going in the tank. Would have to try this in a 40 gallon. Thanks for the details.

[Narwhal72]

Starting in October last year I started switching out my 20 ppi foam that I had in my central system with the 10 ppi foam. It made a huge difference in reducing clogging from pleco poop. Tanks that would clog up almost to overflowing in a week now take about a month to clog up and rinse out clean much quicker.

My 20ppi foam was moved into individually filtered 10 gallons with airlifts that I use for breeding corys and tetras. So far I have not had to clean out any of the foam in these tanks for clogging. Many of them are covered in java moss and java fern that has rooted itself to the surface of the foam.

I am very pleased with the decision to switch out to the 10 ppi with my plecos. My central system has a number of Panaque and Panaqolus in it along with lots of wood.

Andy

[TwoTankAmin]

Wow- I have had several Mattens in place in pleco tanks for month and only had to clean one. I only clean the Poret cubes in pleco tanks every 3 weeks or so. I use almost exclusively 20 ppi. Most are 4 inch cubes, but I also have a couple of the 5 inch which I clean less often. Where I use Mattens, they are the sole filter on a tank.

I have only one complaint about the cube and jetlifters. After in use for a while they clog. The air flow gets reduced. They are easy to clean but if one fails to do it, you will find the air flow suddenly stops completely. It is important, when cleaning the tube, also to remove the gray air collar and clean it as well.

[pleconut]

Thanks for letting us know, I gather you've been doing some tank maintenance.

[bekateen]

Wow- I have had several Mattens in place in pleco tanks for month and only had to clean one. I only clean the Poret cubes in pleco tanks every 3 weeks or so. I use almost exclusively 20 ppi.

But if you don't have wood-eaters, you may not experience the debris buildup at anything close to the rate possible with Panaques and Panaqolus.

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

I have panaqolus in 2 tanks, both with HMF.

No eating of any sort at the hmf. Neither P. Albivermis nor P. Maccus sp. I never even worried about that to be honest.

But you really need low PPI like 10-20(max) for all that poop.

My 400L Community was running on HMF for more than a year, no cleaning ever needed. Though it was/is kinda overstocked. Now with 7 (young) Albivermis in there it started clogging very rapidly. Had to take it out and clean it. Was a real mess! No fun doing that!!! Since I don't want to do this more often in the future, I added a canister filter with it's inlet in front of the HMF, so hopefully most of the poop will end up in that one rather than in the HMF.

If I would set up a panaqolus tank right now, I probably would use something like a low throughput, air driven HMF filter and a second high throughput filter. Maybe even with the second one being a HMF style high throughput filter as well, but with two sheets of 1-2" 10PPI and another sheet of 1-2" 20PPI behind. And make it so I can remove the first sheet of 10ppi easily, clean it, and put it behind the second sheet of 10PPI, in fact switching positions of the 10PPI sheets and have them rotate whenever cleaning is needed. And using something like that for the throughput: http://www.amazon.de/TUNZE-6015-000-Tun ... B0054S8NNE
Cheap, high throughput, low power consumption, also acceptable silent.

I'd probably go with similiar approaches for any new Pleco tanks I'd set up in the future. One slow for bioreactions and another fast, high troughput for clean water, oxygenation and water movement. I'm going with only HMF in my current pleco tanks and I'm not really satisfied with the outcome.

[bekateen]

Good to know, jobro. I may be setting up a 75 gallon tank soon for either 5-10 Panaqolus or 3-6 Leporacanthicus heterodon, and I'm strongly considering an HMF filter for it. But if Panaqolus, I'd still probably mount a rigid screen in front; my maccus and albomaculatus chew on everything! LOL

Cheers, Eric

[TwoTankAmin]

You guys do know that you can use multiple sheets in a Matten? Instead of running a 3 inch 20 ppi you could run a 2 inch 10 ppi followed by a 2 inch 20 ppi. The two sheets of foam can be set up touching each other or with a space between them.


The way the Matten is supposed to work in terms of organic waste is that it is getting broken down into ever smaller particle sizes as it moves deeper into the foam. By the time they work their way out the back they are extremely fine and used up a lot as well. We see this as the bits of mush on the bottom glass behind the foam that I suck up in 60 seconds every week. Any finer, and the particles recirculate into the water and get removed via water changes. I am amazed at how clear my water is in tanks with Mattens and Poret cubes. I used to think only floss or micron filter carts would keep water that clear.

[bekateen]

You guys do know that you can use multiple sheets in a Matten? Instead of running a 3 inch 20 ppi you could run a 2 inch 10 ppi followed by a 2 inch 20 ppi.

Hi TTA,

Maybe you missed it, but yes. That's what jobro described in his post, and what I am considering. Although, I wouldn't use an air lift, I'd power it with a recirculating pump... And also have additional recirc pumps in tank for aeration and water current ( always good to have a backup aerator in tanks, IMHO).

Thanks,
Eric

[Jobro]

You guys do know that you can use multiple sheets in a Matten? Instead of running a 3 inch 20 ppi you could run a 2 inch 10 ppi followed by a 2 inch 20 ppi. The two sheets of foam can be set up touching each other or with a space between them.

Yeah, in my first HMF I ever build, I used 2cm 20PPI and 3cm 30PPI behind each other. I'll try to add a picture for everyone.

It worked fine for more than one year, until the first panaqolus moved in. It clogged really fast and the HMF was not able to collect all the new panaqolus poop form the tank. The whole bottom of the tank started to get covered in panaqolus poop. I had to clean it. I never had to do this before, but after 3 months of panaqolus pooping the water level behind the hmf was so low, the whole hmf began to bulge in by the water pressure. Now i just have to clean the canister every 2-3 weeks, which is way more easy than cleaning the HMF in a huge planted tank.

On my Panaqolus Maccus sp. tank I only used one sheet of 3cm 20ppi and it always gets clogged after some weeks. It's easier to clean it in a small tank though.

[TwoTankAmin]

I would think for the panaqs you would go with a 10 and 20 in terms of ppi?

eric- I did the same until it dawned on me I could make another matten at the other end of the tank and use it both as a filter and a circulation pump. See my poasts in page 2 of this thread.

When you think about it, the more massive the filter foam can be, the more amazingly well it can work. I look at a 12.5x12x3 foam in a 33 gal tank vs what I used to have with a hang-on and a powehead with a big Hydro Sponged intake. The matten.cube filters tanks are cleaner and the maint. routine is about 1/3 the time.

I only use air power for Mattens in 20 longs and for the Poret cubes. I use small pumps for the rest.

[bekateen]

On my Panaqolus Maccus sp. tank I only used one sheet of 3cm 20ppi and it always gets clogged after some weeks. It's easier to clean it in a small tank though.

Jobro, I would expect that a 3 cm thick HMF would be too thin to really be effective, considering that other people here are using HMFs up to 3 inches thick (~2.5 times thicker), sometimes more.

eric- I did the same until it dawned on me I could make another matten at the other end of the tank and use it both as a filter and a circulation pump. See my poasts in page 2 of this thread... I only use air power for Mattens in 20 longs and for the Poret cubes. I use small pumps for the rest.

TTA, yes I recall those posts, and I'm considering that option also. I'm talking about putting this in a 75 gallon, 4-foot-wide tank, my biggest yet if I get to go through with the setup, potentially full of panaqolus... Lots of wood poop needing lots of decomposition!

Cheers,
Eric