Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

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Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

I use distilled water for my 20 gallon tank. I don't trust my tap water, as I know it has heavy metals like copper in it which will not be good for my Cories and chloramines/ammonia. I'm trying to create an Amazon-esque biotope, not perfect but some blackwater elements like staining and decor/plants, so I also want to get the pH and water hardness correct. Thus, I need to remineralize the water. I was wondering if PPS pro would remineralize the water? Seems to me that it supplies the same minerals for my plants that my fish also need. If there's anything big missing from this fert, I'd like to know specifically so I can add it myself. I was looking at commercial RO remineralizers like Kent and RO Right, but a lot of them use sodium chloride as their main ingredient and that will not go over well for my catfish and loaches. I'm going to be adding CO2 injections for my plants, and also some tannin extract/leaves. I don't want the ph too low, so I might opt for a tiny bit of aragonite? It'll add the much need calcium mineral to the tank and help buffer the ph while raising it a bit. I'd add a really small amount. I also read it takes heavy metals out of the water, which is a plus. But I've read that a lot of Amazon biotopes use peat moss, but I'm just not sure I would need to lower my ph considering I'm already using CO2 injectors, distilled water, and heavy aeration? But at the same time, adding the fertilizer will increase pH and hardness... So I'm just not sure how to balance all of this out. Keeping in mind, this is all still in the planning stage! I have yet to make the fert, add the tannin, measure the CO2 in my tank, etc. Right now, I have some seashells in my tank to raise the hardness and remineralize (although I hate them and they aren't very Amazonian, so I want to trade them for some aragonite), along with some plants. PH is a little acidic, and my hardness is around 110 ppm. What hardness level should I be aiming for with my Cories and loaches? I have plans to add centromochlus perugiae and it's my dream to eventually hunt down and breed hisonotus aky as well. Don't be afraid to go all chem in your explanations; I love chemistry, and really want to understand what my fish need and how my tank works! ^_^
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by Bas Pels »

When I was a student, I did research after the influence of copper on fishes. The fishes, and water, needed therefore to be free of copper, and thus the water was made, just as you intent, artificially.

Its contents were:
ion mM
Na+ 1,36
K+ 0,06
Ca2+ 0,50
Mg2+ 0,20
HCO3- 1,36
Cl- 1,46

MgCl2, CaCL2, KCl and NaHCO3 was used, dissolved in 2 stock solutions and then 1:100 dissolved in demiwater. Please note that you need to keep the HCO3 solution separated from the Mg and Ca solution - in this concentration, CaHCO3 will cristallize
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

My only question is, is the salt solution safe for the Cories? I've heard they don't handle it well. Can I just exclude NaCl from the solution? Do fish need Na+ or Cl-? I feel like they really wouldn't for the most part, but this is just me thinking out loud, I have no real idea. Here's what I'm using for my fertilizer, amounts excluded:

K2SO4 Potassium sulfate
KNO3 Potassium nitrate
KH2PO4 Monopotassium phosphate
MgSO4 Magnesium sulfate
CaSO4 Calcium sulfate (on the fence about this, might exclude and just use aragonite and just rebalance/compensate by increasing potassium sulfate)
CSM+B Plantex

Because, if those are all the requirements of fish you have listed above, the fert should be able to adequately remineralize my water, minus the Na+, right? If I take the proportions of what you have above, and compare to what concentrations I'll have in each with the given proportions for the fertilizer, I can just modify it so it has the adequate amount for my fish and plants and fijsna healthy in-between. Thanks for your input!
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by Bas Pels »

What I listed above is what was added to deminiralized water. Nothing more. This water was used for raising Oreochromis mossambicus, an African cichlid. The total amount is similar to our tapwater

Obviously, if you want to provide your fishes softer watercthan this, you can use less minerals. Fish from the Amazon need little or no NaCl, but you will need to dissolve some Mg and Ca. This is best done with the chlorides, that is MgCl2 and CaCl2.

Your water will need some carbonates, in order to buffer the pH. Adding this by bubbling air, will reuslt in a pH of ~4. That's why HCO3 is added, and this is most easily done as NaHCO3 or KHCO3

Further, sulfate is not needed in your water. I would rather not use it, or use only a little of it. Phoshate is something you will want to keep out of your water, anytime. Further, I would reduce Na together with K, that is, I would want to use similar relative amounts

An inspiration for a recipy could be: MgCl2 0,2 mM, CaCl2, 0,1 mM, NaHCO3 24 mM KHCO3 1 mM

This will result in water with a hardness of around 3, conductivity somewhere between 50 and 100, and the pH might be acceptable.

I would suggest mixing this, bubbling air through it for at least 24 hours, and then neasuring the pH and KH. If pH or KH is too low, you best add some more NaHCO3.

Take carefull notes, and repeat this recipy a second and third time. I would assume the pH and KH will be slmosst the same, and this water can, obviously, be used for the fishes

However, do take good care of what minerals you use. Sometimes stuff is added in order to stabilize the minerals, and thisstuff is not good. I used very expensive minerals, grade PA for the research. PA means that everything in the jar is accounted for, and then one can select a brand without any problems. But PA grade minerals are expensive. Very expensive
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by Narwhal72 »

Here is a paper on the ionic composition of various freshwater river systems.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/T0537E/T0537E02.htm

I wouldn't be too worried about the Sodium. If you look at the table on the blackwater rivers (Rio Negro is the S.A. example), sodium is 2-4X higher in concentration than calcium and magnesium. Sodium does not raise GH but does increase conductivity and chloride is important in gill respiration.

Here is another article on the essential minerals required by fish.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5738e/x5738e08.htm

It's important to note that most of these minerals are added to the system with foods. So whether or not you add calcium, magnesium, or sodium salts directly to your aquarium, they are still going to get in there with the foods you feed the fish.

Andy
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

Very, very interesting. So, the sulfate and nitrate are practically useless add-ons to get the ions I need, and could potentially be harmful. Plants produce phosphate as it is, so not sure why I'd need to add it. I really like your suggestion, Bas Pels, so I think I'm going to try that alongside the trace fertilizer from pps pro (CSM+B) to get in some small amounts of metals. Here's what I researched it contains, which covers the rest of the required minerals in the mineral chart of Narwhal's second link:
Total magnesium - water soluble chelated magnesium 1.5%
Copper -chelated 0.1%
Iron - chelated 7.0%
Manganese - chelated 2.0%
Molybdenum 0.06%
Zinc - chelated 0.40%
Boron 3.8%
EDTA - minimum content 65.4%
My chemistry teacher loves how into my fish tanks I am, so she's going to help me get the chemicals I need, and even recommended something similar to what you did. Also, thanks Narwhal72, those articles were super helpful and cool! It helped me understand what fish need a lot better. So then, my final question is, does this also work as a plant fertilizer? Comparing what's in the fertilizer with the requirements of the fish, it looks like they're practically the same thing. Also, I'm going to keep the trace/micro-nutrients solution in one container, the MgCl2 and CaCl2 in another, and the KHCO3 and NaHCO3 in another so nothing reacts. Also, I'd like to note that I'm going to play around with dosage and mixtures in my empty 10 gallon tank before I use it on my tank with plants and fish in it, so no worries about me murdering my fish and plants!
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by racoll »

If you're using distilled water you won't need CO2 injection, as all carbonates entering the water will be in the form of CO2. Plants will grow like crazy. All you'll need to do is add a few drops of a general fertiliser every few days to keep them happy.

As long as you change the water regularly and get the lighting right (not too much and not too little), it really doesn't have to be any more complicated than this ...

Simple fishkeeping is always the best :)
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

I know, I just find understanding all these little intricacies so interesting! But anyways, I agree, that should be enough; when it comes down to it, all I'm trying to figure out is how to make my own solution to remineralize my water for my fish and a fertilizer for my plants. Cos the stuff they sell at the store can be real expensive and I'd rather channel my inner chem nerd and save a lot of cash.

So, continuing my research, I found this: http://www.algone.com/fertilizing-aquarium-plants

According to this, I might want to consider adding sulfates and phosphates to my tank. But the amazon is shown to have little to no sulfates present, as I read in Narwhal's scientific article on rivers. Phosphates are present, however, but I'm not sure I see why I'd need to add that. Don't think anything will convince me to add nitrates, my fish can make plenty I think. Also, my trace mix uses EDTA, not DTPA. Should I get one that has DTPA instead? I was planning on keeping my tank only a little acidic, not below 6. If so, what brand do you guys recommend? And finally, on the subject of heavy metals, I know catfish are sensitive to them, particularly copper, I believe? (Remember reading that a while ago... Could be wrong) Should I consider doing different doses or not including it at all then?
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
racoll wrote: All you'll need to do is add a few drops of a general fertiliser every few days to keep them happy. As long as you change the water regularly and get the lighting right (not too much and not too little), it really doesn't have to be any more complicated than this ...Simple fishkeeping is always the best :)
Works for me as well.

Also have a look at the <"Duckweed Index":http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=39714>.

When you are choosing plants you ideally want ones that aren't too difficult to grow. If you have a look at the "Tropica" web-site it codes the plants they sell by category, and most plants in the "easy" category <"(http://tropica.com/en/plants/)"> are good growers.
zurikitty13 wrote: how to make my own solution to remineralize my water for my fish and a fertilizer for my plants. Cos the stuff they sell at the store can be real expensive and I'd rather channel my inner chem nerd and save a lot of cash. So, continuing my research, I found this: http://www.algone.com/fertilizing-aquarium-plants
I think there are a number of factual inaccuracies in the "algone" link. Plants need about x10 as much nitrogen (N) and potassium (K) as they do phosphorus (P), and they need more phosphorus than any of the other elements, most plant deficiencies are of these macro-elements.

Plants can only take up nutrients as ions, and a major problem with iron (Fe) is that it readily forms insoluble compounds. Plants don't need a huge amount of Fe, but they need some. Chelators, like EDTA, keep Fe ions (Fe+++) in solution and this becomes plant available as the FeEDTA photodegrades. FeEDTA should be fine for you to use.

Have a look at <"James' Planted Tank" http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm> for a nutrient calculator, and DIY fertilisers mixes <http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/allinone.htm>.

Best of luck.

cheers Darrel
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

I'm a step ahead of you when it comes to what plants I want. Actually, I thought the same thing you did, as I want a low tech aquarium, so almost all of the plants I picked were listed as easy plants. Going for an Amazonian biotope-esque tank, I picked:

Hygrophylia polysperma
Dwarf Amazon Sword
Staurogyne repens/hygrophil Araguaia
Amazon frogbit/red root floaters
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' red

I know RRF and Araguaia are harder to raise but they're just so cool! I have 2 wpg of t5ho blue lights, think that's enough? I know I probably shouldn't use blue light, but I love the aesthetic and how it highlights my fishes' colors. Also, trying to simulate the night time. Currently have some anacharis growing under these lights, and growth is definitely slower, but they're alive and green. I've heard people first raise their RRF in a container of tank water in actual sunlight, then transfer them into the tank once they are settled and adjusted to your water. Also, I have no nutrient black sand, but the fertilizer should make up for that, right? Speaking of, I made some adjustments to TPN+ 3 on that list and came up with this:

96g KNO3
26.9g MgCl2
4.4g KHPO4
2.0g NaHCO3
0.4g Potassium Sorbate
1.0g Ascorbic Acid
10g CSM+B
1000ml distilled water

Don't want sulfate, so I'm going to use MgCl2, which'll work out nicely because I'll also be getting the needed Cl- ions. I should probably up the baking soda, right? I'd like recommendations for what that should be, because I'm also going to add Malaysian driftwood and let it stain my water with tannins. I'm just using the soda to increase the pH and buffer it, and to add Na+ ions. Also, what needs to be separated, if anything? The acid and sorbate should keep them from reacting, though. I'm thinking that the fish will get their calcium through the food, so think I'll skip out on CaCl2. Also thinking of lowering KNO3 and increasing KHPO4 because nitrates seem to build up pretty fast in my tank, and it is going to be low tech. However, I don't know just how much nitrate these plants will suck up, so I think I might just suck it up. So, my questions now are, should I use my dechlorinator? I use Stress Coat+, which also targets heavy metals. I also occassionally use Seachem Prime if I have to put off a water change for a day or two because of schoolwork.

Almost there, guys, thanks for the awesome support so far, despite my tons of questions.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by Bas Pels »

Are you cewrtain you ant to add

96g KNO3
4.4g KHPO4
0.4g Potassium Sorbate
1.0g Ascorbic Acid

In my book, this should not be in any tankwater
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by racoll »

In my opinion/experience, you don't need to remineralise the water at all. It's simply not needed.

You'll only need to go down the route of adding all those specific fertilisers if you are going for an high-input light and C02 injected tank. In a low-tech tank the plants will be limited by carbon before anything else. Just dose a little fertiliser like Seachem Flourish to make sure the basics are available. That's all.

Those plants you mention will need a nutritious substrate though, so make sure you don't cut corners with that.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

Well, Seachem Flourish can be expensive, and I'd rather not use it. My tank's carbon content should actually be a bit high, because I'm using distilled water. And if it wasn't high enough, I was planning on doing CO2 injections. So I guess medium-low tech is more accurate? Anyways, do I really need to put down a new substrate? I already have my tank going, so that's going to be quite the hassle. I know some of my plants are stem plants, which is what I'd like to aim to use because of my poor substrate. I could always skip out on the amazon sword or something. If it is necessary, however, I will admit I've been looking at this popular Amazonian nutrient soil/sand. Forget what its called at the moment. Also, why wouldn't you recommend me putting those things in my tank? Looking at that website, it gives the specific ppm of what's going into the water, and those are all things fish and plants need. Are some of those levels toxic to fish? Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate also don't have problematic properties, I don't think. Going off of DW, macro nutrients are a common deficiency. I'm not putting a lot of this in my tank either - only 5 ml per 50 L - so I doubt this could have harmful effects. I guess the reason I'm confused about your opinion is because I've seen many people recommend putting these things in the tank, so I'd like to better understand your point of view. I appreciate your advice, racoll, but I'd like to remineralize my water and do it this way. To restate my questions so people don't have to scroll:

Should I use a dechlorinator? Stress coat+ also targets heavy metals. Is seachem prime better? What would I use as a stress coat then? Would Seachem Prime's nitrate detoxifier interfere with my plants absorbing it?
What needs to be separated in my solution, if anything?
Recommended NaHCO3? Feel like I didn't add enough. A lot of these things will lower my ph, plus I'm going to add Malaysian driftwood to stain the water, and I'd like to keep my water not overly acidic, like around 6-6.8, preferably 6.5.
Too much Cl-? I just recalculated MgCl2 amount by how much MgSO4 would've added, as I substituted it out from the DIY TPN+ (3) from DW's link.
Can I possibly lower KNO3 and up KHPO4? Don't prefer upping my nitrate levels, and this adds quite a lot. Plus, my tank builds up nitrates pretty quickly. If this is possible, can someone suggest modified amounts?

Here's my recipe for a 1L solution, adding 5 ml per 50L a week, give or take depending on levels: (I'm not going to add this directly to my inhabited tank, I plan on adding it to my empty 10 gallon and testing the levels everyday to make sure everything is good)
96g KNO3
26.9g MgCl2
4.4g KHPO4
2.0g NaHCO3
0.4g Potassium Sorbate
1.0g Ascorbic Acid
10g CSM+B
1000ml distilled water

Would also like to note that I plan on adding more delicate fish in the future, particularly rummynose tetras (they're so pretty!), so I'd like to learn how to remineralize water and understand all of this and try it for myself even if it isn't absolutely necessary. Thanks again for everyone's input, hearing everyone's opinions and reading and learning all of these new things is amazing! What do you specifically do, Bas Pels? Little off topic, but I've been thinking of going into a chemistry major myself.

Edit: My thoughts are a bit exciteable, so I make sure to review everything I do. Looking everything over at a reasonable hour of the day, I see that NaHCO3 needs to be kept separate from the CSM+B, Ascorbic Acid, Potassium Sorbate, and KHPO4. Also, since I want this to be a soft water tank, I need to consider either lowering the dose or making a lower concentration solution. I haven't sat down and done all the calculations yet, but that's the feeling I get. All suggestions appreciated!

Edit 2: So I'm stupid... Found this: http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/RO.htm
I think I'm going to get rid of KNO3 and add CaCl2 copying the amount shown here, except for 1,000 ml solution. Going to put the chlorides in one bottle, baking soda in another, and everything else in a final one. My tank is going to be pretty full of fish, so I don't think I need to add nitrate, and I doubt my plants need that much potassium. Was also thinking of splitting the alkalinity level between the baking soda and potassium carbonate so the salt level isn't too high. Rather have high potassium over salt. Thoughts on amounts for solutions/dosing amounts? Probably aiming for weekly/bi-weekly doses with these solutions.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Interesting topic. Re the plants I will add this. For years I used the Tropica Trace mix. I have 10-12 planted tanks at my peak and one which used pressurized co2. Tis mix is not cheap, But i used to buy it in larger amounts which made it more reasonable. This product undergoes rebranding ever so often and the last time it was hard to find in the states except in tiny bottles.

As a result I turned to something from Tom Barr's site which was offered as a dry mix equivalent to the Tropica product. It was a lot cheaper for sure. So I purchased the listed ingredients and mixed them according to the formula. I have a triple beam gram scale so my weights were dead on not teaspoon estimates. I began using this mix as i was out of the Tropica. My plants in all tanks showed a decline in the ensuing weeks/months. Fortunately, the large (5L) containers of the Trace trace/micro mix became available again. The 300 ml bottle is $20 the 5L one is $200 now. This is my third big bottle in 15 years and the price has doubled in that time. I am fortunate that i can afford to buy things in bulks to save money over the long term.

I have made one change. I find I can keep plants happy using a 50/50 mix of the tropica and the formula found here: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-re ... -good-shit

Some of the scientists here can corret me if i am wrong, but I thought a certain amount of the mineral needs of fish are mostly supplied by diet as opposed to being in the water.

zurikitty- I will never put aloe vera into my tank water. This is an ingredient in Stress Coat. Most decent dechlorinators these days handle both chlorine and chloramine, will detoxify ammonia and nitrite as well and some will also deal with some of the metals. Seachem Prime is fairly popular on the hobby. http://www.seachem.com/prime.php I should say that I have a private well and do not normally use such products unless doing a fish event away from home or added to a shipping bag. Most of the studies I find on the use of aloe vera and fish involve using it as a dietary supplement not by adding it to tank water.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
zurikitty13 wrote:I have 2 wpg of t5ho blue lights, think that's enough? I know I probably shouldn't use blue light, but I love the aesthetic and how it highlights my fishes' colors...Also, trying to simulate the night time.
It is going to depend upon how much of the spectrum is within the PAR zone.

If the tubes are rated less than 20 Kelvin? they should be all right ("https://orphek.com/about/kelvin-lux-lumens-par-pur/). You will still need to run them on a ~10 hour day and 14 hours night, you can't keep them on all the time.
zurikitty13 wrote:I'm a step ahead of you when it comes to what plants I want. Actually, I thought the same thing you did, as I want a low tech aquarium, so almost all of the plants I picked were listed as easy plants. Going for an Amazonian biotope-esque tank, I picked:

Hygrophyla polysperma
Dwarf Amazon Sword
Staurogyne repens/hygrophil Araguaia
Amazon frogbit/red root floaters
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' red
..............
They should be fine. Phyllanthus fluitans(RRF) doesn't do well in high surface flow.
zurikitty13 wrote: 96g KNO3
26.9g MgCl2
4.4g KHPO4
2.0g NaHCO3
0.4g Potassium Sorbate
1.0g Ascorbic Acid
10g CSM+B
1000ml distilled water
You need to keep the trace mix away from the other compounds. It seems a lot of trace mix, unless CSM+B is already fairly dilute?
zurikitty13 wrote: Don't want sulfate, so I'm going to use MgCl2, which'll work out nicely because I'll also be getting the needed Cl- ions. I should probably up the baking soda, right? I'd like recommendations for what that should be, because I'm also going to add Malaysian driftwood and let it stain my water with tannins. I'm just using the soda to increase the pH and buffer it, and to add Na+ ions.
MgSO4.7H2O ("Epsom salts") is fine as the magnesium source and I agree with Racoll you can leave the sodium out, the sea is salty with Na+ and Cl- because plants don't need them (or only in trace amounts). If you want a carbonate buffer then potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) or potassium carbonate (K2CO3) would be better.

I'm not going down the route of discussing pH stability, because that is a whole separate discussion, but pH can't be stable in soft vegetated water, and it it isn't a problem for the fish. If you add carbonate buffering then your pH will stabilise at ~pH8, although it will still show diurnal variation as your plants photosynthesise.
zurikitty13 wrote:Also, what needs to be separated, if anything? The acid and sorbate should keep them from reacting, though. I'm thinking that the fish will get their calcium through the food, so think I'll skip out on CaCl2.
Plants have a small calcium requirement. If you don't want to add CaCl2 you can use a natural calcium source (CaCO3) to add both calcium and carbonates. I use a ~10% tap water, because I have a hard, clean tap supply, but if I didn't I would add a small amount of "oyster shell chick grit" (sold for chicken feed) to the substrate.
zurikitty13 wrote:Also thinking of lowering KNO3 and increasing KHPO4 because nitrates seem to build up pretty fast in my tank, and it is going to be low tech. However, I don't know just how much nitrate these plants will suck up, so I think I might just suck it up.
Just to note you can't measure nitrate (NO3-) accurately within any of the test kits available to us. That is one of the advantage of the "Duckweed Index", you don't need to know nutrient levels because it uses plant health as an indicator of nutrient content.
zurikitty13 wrote:And if it wasn't high enough, I was planning on doing CO2 injections.
Carbon dioxide addition adds a whole raft of potential problems (and benefits) and it isn't a route I would advise until you are happy growing plants and keeping fish in low tech. environment.

cheers Darrel
Last edited by dw1305 on 20 May 2016, 11:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by racoll »

dw1305 wrote: Carbon dioxide addition adds a whole raft of potential problems (and benefits) and it isn't a route I would advise until you are happy growing plants and keeping fish in low tech. environment.
Yes, I would certainly also advise against C02 injection. Way more trouble than it's worth if you are not a very serious plant enthusiast.
zurikitty13 wrote:Should I use a dechlorinator? Stress coat+ also targets heavy metals. Is seachem prime better? What would I use as a stress coat then? Would Seachem Prime's nitrate detoxifier interfere with my plants absorbing it?
Yes, if you are using tapwater and your tapwater contains chlorine or chloramine, but if you're using distilled water, then no, you won't need to. Seachem Prime seems like a good product. Not sure how the ammonia detox works exactly, but having insufficient nitrates will not be something you'll need to worry about as the fishes will generate plenty. A stresscoat product is not something you need to add to your tank; a healthy fish can make its own slime.

In fact, what exactly is wrong with your tapwater @zurikitty13 ? My plants are growing really well in my tank with hard tapwater and no supplements of any kind. It's just a question of choosing the right species, and getting the balance correct between the amount of available light and carbon.

You mentioned copper, but most water supplies contain a little copper and it's not a problem. Do you have elevated copper levels for some reason? Most commercial tapsafe dechlorinators (like Prime) will detoxify these metals anyway.

If you want to keep rummynose tetras, they'll do best in distilled water with no minerals added at all. As @TwoTankAmin said, they'll get their minerals from their diet.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

Sorry, had finals this week, no time for extensive fish stuff besides basic care. Anyways, my tap water, I suspect, is probably high in copper because the plumbing in my house uses copper tubing. Also, I know my water has about .25-.5 ppm ammonia in it. Plus, it's really hard, and that would kill the rummynoses instantly. Ugh. I don't mind using distilled water though, it's really cheap.

As for lighting, the link for par is broken. I read some stuff about it online, but I have no way of measuring it. When you say 20 K, do you mean 20,000 K or 2,000 K? Cos I think this is either 6500 K or 10,000 K. I'm not sure, lost the box. Here's what I bought: Aquatic Life 24-Watt 22.5-Inch T5 HO Aquarium Lamp Actinic/Blue, fits 24-Inch and 30-Inch T5HO Light Fixtures https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001XRTR4O/re ... pxbV36JFMC

Ok, if rummynoses will do best in non-mineralized water, then I guess this was a giant waste of time. Good learning experience nonetheless. Still need to figure out my fertilizer, though. I'll go to my local tractor supply store and see if they have any oyster chick grit. Also, found this:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilize ... iency.html

Granted it's from 1993, but it suggests that plants need sulfur, and hence sulfate. So, I'm going to go back to the original suggest amount of epsom salts (17 g).

I agree that not using baking soda would be best. I also still think that KNO3 probably isn't necessary. If it becomes necessary, I have some I can always add to the solution. CSM+B is also pretty dilute, from my understanding. Over half of it is EDTA. Also, I need to keep my water soft, so I don't want to be adding too much. So, I think my fertilizer will be good the way it is rn, minus the KNO3 and NaHCO3, with some oyster chick grit in my filter, and the epsom salts.

Turning back to plants, I became very interested in good "indicator" plants, and found this:
http://www.aquariumtips.net/beginners/a ... iency.html

Very useful stuff. So, I've changed my plant selections to this:
Hygrophylia polysperma
Echinodorus amazonicus
sagitarria subulata
Pistia stratiotes- no3 indicator
Echinodorus ‘Quadricostatus’- micro nutrient indicator
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' red

Also, this gives me a guide for the measurements of nutrients I need, so I'm going to do some calculations tonight and update with my recipe and dosing amount.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
zurikitty13 wrote:Anyways, my tap water, I suspect, is probably high in copper because the plumbing in my house uses copper tubing. Also, I know my water has about .25-.5 ppm ammonia in it. Plus, it's really hard, and that would kill the rummynoses instantly. Ugh. I don't mind using distilled water though, it's really cheap.
You don't need to worry about the copper, you won't have any copper ions (Cu++) in your tap water, because it is hard and the interior of the pipe will have a protective layer of insoluble copper compounds. I would just cut your RO with 10% tap water to provide some dGH/dKH.

If your water is treated with chloramine (I assume it is because of the ammonia reading) then you would need a de-chlorinator that treats chloramine, although this is less of a problem in planted tanks (the plants take up the ammonia as it becomes available).
zurikitty13 wrote:As for lighting, the link for par is broken. I read some stuff about it online, but I have no way of measuring it. When you say 20 K, do you mean 20,000 K or 2,000 K? Cos I think this is either 6500 K or 10,000 K. I'm not sure, lost the box.
Sorry fixed the link, and I did mean 20,000 kelvin. You can't get a Kelvin rating for that tube, because it is actinic and the Kelvin ratings apply to the spectrum that iron emits when it is heated to a certain temperature. Actinic bulbs aren't suitable for plant growth, although if its a dual fixture? you could add a cool white (~4000K) or daylight white (~6500K) tube.
zurikitty13 wrote:Ok, if rummynoses will do best in non-mineralized water, then I guess this was a giant waste of time. Good learning experience nonetheless. Still need to figure out my fertilizer, though. I'll go to my local tractor supply store and see if they have any oyster chick grit. Also, found this:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilize ... iency.html

Granted it's from 1993, but it suggests that plants need sulfur, and hence sulfate. So, I'm going to go back to the original suggest amount of epsom salts (17 g).
Plants need all of the essential macro and micro elements <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition>. "Thekrib" is still a good source of information, although it isn't an active site any more.
zurikitty13 wrote:I agree that not using baking soda would be best. I also still think that KNO3 probably isn't necessary. If it becomes necessary, I have some I can always add to the solution. CSM+B is also pretty dilute, from my understanding. Over half of it is EDTA. Also, I need to keep my water soft, so I don't want to be adding too much. So, I think my fertilizer will be good the way it is rn, minus the KNO3 and NaHCO3, with some oyster chick grit in my filter, and the epsom salts.
You will need to add some N and K, plants need ~x10 as much of these as any of the other nutrients. I use the <"Duckweed Index":http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... hp?t=39714>, rather than just adding nutrients regularly.
zurikitty13 wrote:Turning back to plants, I became very interested in good "indicator" plants, and found this:
http://www.aquariumtips.net/beginners/a ... iency.html

Very useful stuff. So, I've changed my plant selections to this:
Hygrophylia polysperma
Echinodorus amazonicus
sagitarria subulata
Pistia stratiotes- no3 indicator
Echinodorus ‘Quadricostatus’- micro nutrient indicator
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' red

Also, this gives me a guide for the measurements of nutrients I need, so I'm going to do some calculations tonight and update with my recipe and dosing amount.
I've never had much luck with Sagittaria subulata I think it likes harder water.

Limnobium laevigatum is a better floater for assessing nutrient status, because it has a green leaf (it is my "duckweed" of choice). With Pistia (which I like a lot) the leaf is too hairy to assess colour.

I would add either (or both) Cabomba "caroliniana" and Ceratopteris thalictroides to your plant list, they are both S. American, and quick growers.

cheers Darrel
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

The only reason I hesitate with limnobium is I've heard their roots grow super long and can get caught in the filter. Can I use RRF as my indicator floater? The color ranges from green to red, so I assume it'd be a good indicator. Also, neither of the plants you suggested are South American, sorry to say. Caroliniana is north American and I think the other is Asian. Anyways, couldn't I just use my fertilizer to bring up hardness? I have a tds meter, so combining that w/ rrf as an indicator should be good I think. Plus, rummynoses do best in unmineralized distilled water, so tap water would probably be overkill, right?

Also, could I get a red t5 fluorescent bulb? I plan on getting a centromochlus perugiae, and they cannot see red light, so I'd like to get one of those. Also, that link on plant nutrition triggered honors biology flashbacks X'D very interesting nonetheless. Don't want to give up my beautiful black sand, so I'm going to put some peat moss underneath. Using liquid fertilizer, will that be enough? I'd really rather not use root tabs or anything like that, nor do I want to upturn my tank with a completely new substrate. Sliding a mesh bag of peat moss underneath wouldn't be too bad. Trying to achieve ultimate laziness levels through this low tech tank.

Here's my updated plant picks:
Hygrophylia polysperma
Echinodorus bleheri
Red root floater- no3/Fe indicator
Echinodorus ‘Quadricostatus’- micro nutrient indicator
Echinodorus 'Ozelot' red
Christmas moss
Also already own some anacharis plants

Haven't had the time to make the fertilizer recipe yet but I will try to do so either tonight or tomorrow. I plan on having a fully stocked tank, that's why I wasn't worried about NO3, but I definitely will add K. Thanks for all your info!
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I think you could have issues with your plant selection if the tank in question is a 20 gal. Unless you are planning on a bigger tank the sword plants will outgrow a 20 gal.

The Ozeleot grows to a height of as much as 50 cm (20 inches) and almost as wide. This has a medium growth rate.
The Bleheri grows to a height of as much as 50 cm (20 inches) and almost as wide. This has a high growth rate. "It is a hardy and easy solitary plant for both beginners and the more experienced with quite large aquariums."
The ‘Quadricostatus’ is smaller and stays closer to 15-20 (6-8 inches) cm and about as wide. This has a high growth rate.
(The above information comes from the Tropica site. http://tropica.com/en/plants/search/?mo ... &ori=&use=)

A 20 gal tank has a 24x12 inch footprint. Somehow two plants that can get almost 20 inches wide plus the third smaller one will not fit for very long in such a small tank.

Also, many sword varieties will do best with what is described as a "nutritious substrate." The Bleheri is one. I have always fed mine with root ferts in addition to whatever goes into the water column. It will grow more slowly with no substrate feeding. I pretty much gave up keeping most swords as they outgrew my tanks. In my high light 50 gal with CO2 added it took about 3-4 months for a plant that started under 6 inches to have to be removed from the tank and given away to friends with 6 foot tanks. I had one mother amazon sword which outgrew a 75 gal tank which had moderate light levels. (I believe it was a Bleheri not an amazonicus.)
Image

The problem is floaters will eventually get stuck in the sword leaves and those leaves will end up shading most anything below them. Regular pruning should help. But this plant wants to get big.

I have kept the compacta swords for years. I still have one in a 29 gal. (30x12 inch footprint) which started out life in a 20 long in about 2003. http://www.floridaaquatic.com/aquarium_ ... pacta.html In the pic below it is about 10 years old and it is still a manageable size. I still have it today. This is supposedly a dwarf variety of the Bleheri.
Image

One note here. On some sites, including Tropica's, they show tanks where the big swords, when small, are used in very small tanks. The problem is many such tanks are set up for contests such as the AGA one and the tanks will not hold their "look" longer term because it gets difficult to keep the big plants that small longer term, imo.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
zurikitty13 wrote:The only reason I hesitate with limnobium is I've heard their roots grow super long and can get caught in the filter.
The long roots of Pistia and Limnobium are one of their advantages, I use a pref-filter sponge on the filter intake, it stops vegetation ending up in the filter and also has a number of other advantages.
zurikitty13 wrote:Can I use RRF as my indicator floater? The color ranges from green to red, so I assume it'd be a good indicator.
I don't think so, I think in Phyllanthus leaf colour is dependent upon light intensity.
zurikitty13 wrote:Also, neither of the plants you suggested are South American, sorry to say. Caroliniana is north American and I think the other is Asian.
Cabomba caroliniana is definitely native to Brazil <http://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/107743>

Image <http://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/107743>.

Nomenclature is uncertain in the genus Ceratopteris, but the distribution is "pan-tropical". The S. American plant maybe a different species, but you can find pictures of C. pteroides in varzea lakes etc.
Image from <http://www.amazonian-fish.co.uk/indexc6b1.html>.
zurikitty13 wrote:Anyways, couldn't I just use my fertilizer to bring up hardness?
The calcium and magnesium you add will raise dGH (a measure of the divalent ions), but you need to add a carbonate containing compound (like CaCO3 or KHCO3) to raise dKH.
zurikitty13 wrote: I have a tds meter, so combining that w/ rrf as an indicator should be good I think. Plus, rummynoses do best in unmineralized distilled water, so tap water would probably be overkill, right?
I use conductivity (TDS meters measure conductivity and then multiply by ~0.62) as an indicator, it tells you the quantity of ions in solution, but not their composition. For soft water fish (like Rummynoses, bearing in mind there are three different species with different requirements) I aim for about 100 microS.
zurikitty13 wrote:Also, could I get a red t5 fluorescent bulb? I plan on getting a centromochlus perugiae, and they cannot see red light, so I'd like to get one of those.
You can use what light colour you like to view the fish, but you can only use a bulb that replicates sun-light to grow the plants. As far as we know photosynthesis evolved only once several billion years ago and "plants" have evolved ever since to exploit the light spectrum produced by our sun.
zurikitty13 wrote:Also, that link on plant nutrition triggered honors biology flashbacks X'D very interesting nonetheless. Don't want to give up my beautiful black sand, so I'm going to put some peat moss underneath. Using liquid fertilizer, will that be enough? I'd really rather not use root tabs or anything like that, nor do I want to upturn my tank with a completely new substrate. Sliding a mesh bag of peat moss underneath wouldn't be too bad. Trying to achieve ultimate laziness levels through this low tech tank.
You can add peat to the filter in a bag, it has to be sphagnum peat to soften the water, but it doesn't add many nutrient. It isn't really a renewable resource, so I use dead leaves instead.

You can grow Echinodorus plants without an enriched substrate, all plants can take in nutrients through their leaves, but as TTA suggests they will still eventually grew fairly large.

This is a 2' tank which is mainly filled with single plants of Echinodorus bleheri and Bolbitis heudelotii

Image

cheers Darrel
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by TwoTankAmin »

There is one huge difference in feeding the plants via their leaves and via the substrate. One cannot have any level of ammonia in the water, but you can have it in the substrate. I would reference something Tom Barr says, the best fertilization is usually one which uses both water and substrate feeding. Not all swords need this, but some varieties definitely benefit greatly from it. I am cheap and I use Jobes Spikes for this. In about 2003 I traded a bag of my lf bn for a large supply of the Jobes Fern and Palm spikes with a gent in Florida. I had trouble finding that specific spike here in NY. I have not used them all up yet :) You cannot be disturbing the substrate if you use these or you quickly get a lesson in algae gone wild. The are not ideal for the constant rescaper/replanter.

I tend to have a lot of faith in Tropica. I cannot think of a better plant outfit. One of the more popular plants we use in our tanks was 'developed" by them, the frilly tipped java fern, "Microsorum pteropus 'Windeløv' is a patented variety of Microsorum pteropus, named after Tropica's founder Holger Windeløv." Then there is Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Tropica'.

If anybody has expert advice on plants, it's these folks, imo. Here is their blurb on the Cambomba carolinea:
Cabomba is a very popular aquarium plant from South America owing to its beautiful foliage. It reaches 30-80 cm and each stem can become 5-8 cm wide.The least demanding of the Cabomba-species, but still causes problems in poorly lit aquariums. If there is not sufficient light, try Limnophila sessiliflora, which requires less light. Most decorative when planted in groups. Eaten locally as a vegetable.
So if you are ever stuck for salad.....
from http://tropica.com/en/plants/plantdetai ... DT%29/4431

Here is a Tropica vid on how to plant a variety of things- I know the cabomba and the bleheri are in this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44cDbR2YvK4
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by zurikitty13 »

Ok, decided I don't want to mess around with my sand, so I'm going to stick to stem plants for the most part, might do one or two root plants and just stick in some root tabs if needed. Updated plant choice:

Cabomba caroliniana 30-80 cm stem
Hygrophila polysperma 25-40 cm tall, 4-8 cm wide stem
Limnonium laevigatum 5-15 cm wide floater or Pistia stratiotes (smaller than limnomium) floater
Echinodorus reni 15-40 cm rosulate
Staurogyne repens 5-10 cm tall, 3-4 cm wide stem
Microsorum pteropus 15-30 cm tall rhizomatous
Echinodorus quadricostatus 10-15 cm tall, 10-15 cm wide rosulate

I like caroliniana, but it gets kinda tall, no? Gets taller than the swords. Am I able to propagate by cutting off sections like I can with my anacharis plants? Also, tropica says pistia is a good indicator plant, so I kinda want to get it. I like the hairy roots look, and the roots aren't as long, and the plant isn't as big. I still would like to get quadricostatus despite its lengthy size because I like that its a micro-nutrient indicator, because I really don't want to buy anymore test kits. I'm thinking I put peat underneath the sand in the section where I put the echinodorus only, then stick in root tabs if necessary. Also, I know microsorum isn't south american, but I do have 3 kuhli loaches in my tank, and its native to where they are from, so I want them to feel a little more at home. Same thing with hygrophila, just a preference choice. I'm not going for a perfect amazonian biotope, but would like to stick to the guidelines of one as much as possible.

As for lighting, I'm going to go buy a cool white bulb tomorrow. Probably something like this: http://www.lowes.com/pd_161595-371-6424 ... luorescent
Going to keep one actinic, which I believe my actinic is 50/50, half white half blue, so I think combined with the cool light the plants will be happy. Found a good light calculator too: http://rotalabutterfly.com/light-calculator.php
According to this calculator, my PAR @ Depth will be 66, and my lux 7,858.
For viewing my Centromochlus, I'm going to buy some cheap red LEDS and tape them under my hood and turn them on for an hour or two before I go to bed. Does setting my time from 10-8 sound like a good time to start with for my plants? And is keeping the red LED on for a few hours after this harmful to my plants?

And finally, here's my updated fertilizer:
48g KNO3
4.4g Monopotassium phosphate
34g Sulphate Heptahydrate
1.0g E300 Ascorbic Acid
.4g E202 Potassium Sorbate
10g CSM+B
1000ml distilled water
5 ml doses

I did the calculations a little quickly, I'll check them over for mistakes tomorrow. If you guys see anything, let me know! I purposely kept the ratios of all the nutrients a little low, specifically KNO3, because I want soft water, and nitrates always seem to build up quickly in my tank. I plan on having my tank fully stocked. Today I added sphagnum peat moss and oyster chick grit to my filter. Actually, I added the peat moss a couple days ago, waited until my pH dropped to about 6.2, then put in the oyster chick grit to start counter-acting/buffering. I've got baking soda on hand, worst comes to worst. I plan on keeping my hardness around 100 microsiemens as well. When you say you aim for that amount, do you mean you do a water change when it reaches 100, or do you wait until it exceeds 100 a little? Because water hardness is difficult to keep constant. Thanks for all the links and input, especially love the pictures of your tanks and the map!

Edit: Want to add leaves to the bottom of my aquarium, what brand/type do you guys suggest?
Last edited by zurikitty13 on 22 May 2016, 17:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Pretty much all the stem plants can be dealt with the same way. When you buy them they are single stems and, as you noted, the will keep growing. When they get too tall you have two options. These are based on what happens if you just cut them in half and leave the bottom part in place.When you do this they will then put out multiple stems from just below the cut. Instead of ending up with a single stem, you get a more bushy effect. The lower down you make the cut, the more bush-like it will look. The other option will keep the plant as a single stem. For this you must pull the plant out of the substrate cut it and then replant the upper part of the plant.

Depending on the look you want will determine how you prune them. If you want to reproduce stems, the easiest way is to let them bush and then you can cut any of the multiple shoots from the bush and wind up with a single stem. The other neat thing about stem plants is they can be floated and they will grow this way.

One interesting note about the hygro poly. This plant will often put out roots along the stem. It is possible to take such a stem and lay it horizontally along the substrate in the foreground and then use a tweezers to push the roots along the stem into the substrate. Whenever the hygro tries to send a shoot upwards, you prune it off. Eventually you can have the plant growing along the substrate like a ground cover. Below is a picture of a 5.5 gal. tank right after I set it up and had planted it with some hygro placed as described and starting to settle in. The two rising parts got pruned a short time later.
Image
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Re: Tank Chem: Remineralizing Water

Post by racoll »

zurikitty13 wrote:Also, tropica says pistia is a good indicator plant, so I kinda want to get it. I like the hairy roots look, and the roots aren't as long, and the plant isn't as big.
I never had much success with Pistia. They often come as very large outdoor-grown plants and therefore need as much as 6 inches of space between the the surface and the condensation tray. In my tank they were not getting enough light I think---despite multiple tubes---, or maybe too humid, and they just regressed in size until they died off.
zurikitty13 wrote:I'm not going for a perfect amazonian biotope, but would like to stick to the guidelines of one as much as possible.
Not sure exactly what you mean by "perfect amazonian biotope", but / are not commonly associated with aquatic plants. They are generally found in open water and are very active (at night). For me, a 20 gallon tank with floating plants would not give them enough swimming place near the surface.
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