breeding oto cats

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 20 Feb 2007, 00:58

I have about 25-30 oto cats in a 35 gal.tank. A lot of the females are full of what appears to be eggs.They have been like this for awhile.I think my water perameters for these fish are wrong. Can anyone tell me what they should be and how to go about getting there?

My tap water is as follows:(this is after running it through a carbon filter to get rid of chlorine & chlorimine.
PO4=<0.25,CA=80,NO3=<5,NH3=0,PH7.6,KH=180,GH=260,NO2=0,Iron(chelated & non)=0.
I do weekly 25-35% water changes.The following perameters are tested just before a change.
PO4=1.0,CA=80,No3=5,NH3=0,PH=8.2,KH=190,GH=260,NO2=0, Irons=0.
The temp. is 78F. The filtration is an aqua clear hang on filter.The substrate is large size natural gravel,a number of live plants,a piece of driftwood & a large # of limestone caves.
Please help I would appreciate any and all advice.Iwould truly like to get these little guys to spawn.
P.S. I think my PH & hardness are wrong,could some of the problems be caused by the limestone?

Baere · Post by **Baere** » 20 Feb 2007, 07:51

your are right your water is to hard and the limestone is a big part of it. Limestone will raise your Ph and hardness. You want a Ph around 6.5 give or take. and a hardness less then 100 better luck with it around 20. You should definetly lose the limestone. I believe there are a few articles on this site about otos.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 20 Feb 2007, 10:36

I agree with Baere, you need softer water. I presume those hardness values are PPM, not "degrees", as "degrees" would make it almost solid.

The only "easy" way to lower this is by "deionizatin", either by using a RO-unit (reverse osmosis) or DI-unit (de-ionization). These hook up to your water supply and filter the water, removing just about anything that is in the water (they usually come in multi-stage units that consist of particle filter, carbon filter and finally the RO/DI filter - some even have both RO and DI to be "extra pure").

Of course, if you just want to trigger the spawn and keep the eggs at low hardness, you can buy RO water at the LFS, or sometimes in North America, you can get pure water in the supermarket (read the label, looking for "purified" water with nearly no minerals. Distilled water is sometimes sold in supermarkets in the US, that's also de-ionized). You'll probably need about 100 gallons, to make it 4 * 40% water changes and then some 10-20% water changes after that.

My RO unit cost me about £60 -> US $120 [don't know what the Canadian to US/GB exchange rate is at the moment]. You also need a container to store the produced water, and somewhere to drain away the waste-water if you use RO (you get 3-6 times the "pure" water in waste). DI doesn't produce waste-water, but you need new cartridges more often and they are expensive.

--
Mats

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 20 Feb 2007, 22:23

I got rid of all of the limestone today. I also did a 35% water change while vacuuming the gravel.I hope this will start lowering the PH & Hardness.I will test it again in the morning.Because my tap water is PH 7.6,KH 180,GH 260.is there not a less expensive or easier way to soften & lower the PH than getting into DI or RO filtration? Does the introduction of peat moss have any effect & if so what is the best way to do this?
I think in the future it might be better for me to breed only fish that are more compatible with my harder water at least until I can properly install the best system to do the softening.

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 21 Feb 2007, 08:26

I think in the future it might be better for me to breed only fish that are more compatible with my harder water at least until I can properly install the best system to do the softening.

The otos will be fine in your water. I keep otos in similar water to yours and they are also carrying eggs.

Its only triggering the spawning when you need very soft water.

I would follow Mats advice and buy the demineralised water when you want to trigger the spawning.

You should be able to get some from an LFS (especially one that specialises in discus).

You won't need a lot for a 35g tank.

Because my tap water is PH 7.6,KH 180,GH 260.is there not a less expensive or easier way to soften & lower the PH than getting into DI or RO filtration? Does the introduction of peat moss have any effect & if so what is the best way to do this?

Unfortunately RO and DI is the only way to get satisfactory results. In water as hard as yours you would have to fill the tank to the brim with peat moss to get any drop in pH.

Have a read of this.

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 21 Feb 2007, 13:47

Thanks racoll for pointing me toward the article on water chemistry.Although a bit hard to follow it took afew times reading it over.It shed a lot of light on the subject for me.I am glad that my oto's will be fine in my water.I will see if I can get demineralized water from my LFS.If I can is there any particular way it should be introduced to the tank to help induce spawning without harming the fish by dropping levels to fast?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 21 Feb 2007, 18:41

If I can is there any particular way it should be introduced to the tank to help induce spawning without harming the fish by dropping levels to fast?

Bear in mind that I have never bred otos, so I'm not the best person to ask about the specifics.

I would perhaps start with 25% RO water changes every other day, and then perhaps reduce these to 10% every few days after a while.

Maybe they need very drastic changes, but most spawning reports I have read have been accidental, so this seems less likely.

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 21 Feb 2007, 19:55

I am also interested in the idea of using rain water.Is this a good idea? It will not be long & I will have lots of rain water available(free).If so is it okay to use water collected from the downspout of a house with ordinary asphalt shingles?

WhitePine · Post by **WhitePine** » 22 Feb 2007, 01:40

You can also use snow to trigger a spawn. Use a large bucket or tote packed with snow collected from a clean area in your yard. Bring it inside and let it melt close to room temp. You can add some distilled or ro water to speed up the melting. I know Shane use to add snow to some of his tank when he lived in DC.

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 22 Feb 2007, 12:51

Thanks for the great tip.I never thought to use snow & I am surrounded by about three feet of the white stuff.One question is it OK to use rain collected from the downspout of a shingled roof? Or for that matter what about the snow as it melts from the roof?
I am still looking for DI water,any other ideas as to where to get it other than a LFS?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 22 Feb 2007, 13:54

One question is it OK to use rain collected from the downspout of a shingled roof? Or for that matter what about the snow as it melts from the roof?

Yes I think that would be fine, as long as the gutter is clean from bird crap and detritus, and that the roof isn't brand new (chemicals etc).

If in doubt, filter the water through carbon before use.

I am still looking for DI water,any other ideas as to where to get it other than a LFS?

Not really, but as Mats said, it is often sold in supermarkets in the USA, so maybe Canada too?

I would go with the snow/rain as its free, although you will have to find a way to store it for when you need it.

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 22 Feb 2007, 14:40

I like the idea of snow or rain as well.The price is right.As for the roof the house was built in July 2006.So if I was to use the water from the roof when the house hits about 1 yr.would this be OK? To be safe what should I test it for? Or am I better off collecting rain the hard way in buckets in the open? How old should the roof be before collecting?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 22 Feb 2007, 14:47

I should think that the roof is old enough and all traces of chemicals are gone.

I'm sure you know what that fresh bitumen/asphalt smell is like.

I would say that if the roof still smells strongly of it, then don't use the water.

Bwhiskered · Post by **Bwhiskered** » 22 Feb 2007, 20:14

huk chun chu wrote:I like the idea of snow or rain as well.The price is right.As for the roof the house was built in July 2006.So if I was to use the water from the roof when the house hits about 1 yr.would this be OK? To be safe what should I test it for? Or am I better off collecting rain the hard way in buckets in the open? How old should the roof be before collecting?

I'm from Ontario as well. And if you are in Toronto or Hamilton or in between forget the rain water. I used it twenty years ago and it was bad then and is worse now. Try tasting the rainwater. It is not the roof that is the problem but the chemicals and polutants in the air that are washed out of the atmosphere. In Burlington I could taste iron oxide or sulphur depending on the wind direction. Brake down and by an RO unit they are cheapest from http://www.mops.ca They sell for 40 gallon a day $159.99 60g-$229.99 90g-$249.99 And that is in Canadian funds. U.S. prices are also listed.

Shaun · Post by **Shaun** » 22 Feb 2007, 22:48

This might help:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... otocinclus
Shaun

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 23 Feb 2007, 10:34

ebay is a cheap place to buy RO units.

I got mine very cheap indeed, and its still working well two years on. I've not had to replace anything yet.

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 24 Feb 2007, 10:27

Successful breedings of Otocinclus are rare enough that at least I would appreciate it if you would post your experiences and any observations you make, e.g. what the water parameters were, if you did anything special to trigger the spawn, what other fish were in the tank... anything, basically.

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 27 Feb 2007, 21:30

Bwhiskered I am about 1.5 hrs. north east of Toronto so I do not no if my rainwater is any better.
Shaun thanks for pointing out that great article about the oto's it will definately help.
I am definately considering looking for a RO unit.My concern is enviromentally not to mention the cost of water.But does not a RO unit waste an awfull lot of water to make each gallon of RO water?
If I do eventually have any luck spawning my oto's I will most definately post a full report. Thanks everyone for all the advice & if you have anymore ideas that might help me with this spawning attempt please send them along,every little bit helps.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Feb 2007, 10:59

RO units use about 3-6 times the water produced. So for one gallon produced water, you get 2-5 gallons of "waste". But since you only need a relatively small amount, you probably don't really need to worry too much about it.

You probably use more water flushing the toilet or taking showers.

Ideal solution is of course to re-use the waste-water from the RO unit, so that you for example use it for flushing the toilet or watering plants outside (not this time of the year, of course).

From an environmental point of view, the DI units are less wasteful of water, but from an economical point of view, your water needs to be VERY expensive to make up for the extra cost of the cartridges that you need for the DI unit (unless you get a "professional" version, where the DI cartridge is "replenished" using STRONG CHEMICALS (concentrated muriatic [hydrochloric] acid and concentrated sodium hydroxide). RO cartridges last a lot longer than DI cartridges...

--
Mats

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 28 Feb 2007, 11:28

DI units also do not lower the conductivity of the water, like RO-units do, they simply replace calcium and magnesium with sodium.
DI units are good in-line with RO units, as they make the membrane of the RO unit last longer, but I wouldn't personally use one on its own.

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 28 Feb 2007, 12:00

Mike_Noren wrote:DI units also do not lower the conductivity of the water, like RO-units do, they simply replace calcium and magnesium with sodium.
DI units are good in-line with RO units, as they make the membrane of the RO unit last longer, but I wouldn't personally use one on its own.

No, I'm not talking of a Ion-exchange unit of the type that is called a "water softener". I'm talking of a proper De-Ionization unit - like described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deionized_water

Here's one example (first one Google found):
http://www.petsolutions.com/Deion+200R- ... 36-C-.aspx

--
Mats

Becki · Post by **Becki** » 05 Mar 2007, 02:53

Please don't mind my ramblings, this is more of a "how I did it and my random observations"
rather than a polished breeding report.

Beersnob and I have finally gotten our zebra otos up and running, and now have fry over 6 months. They seem to breed about every 2-3 weeks. For us, the key seemed to be having corydoras pigmaeus in the same tank.

Our current setup: a 20 tall with a tank divider (with holes to let the water pass through, but not large enough for fry to get through- we used one of the commercial tank dividers)that I permamently siliconed to the tank. Last winter we had a few batches of fry, but since we hadn't glued the divider on, the fry managed to shimmy through the gaps at the side of the tank, and either got sucked in the filter or were eaten by the whiptails that we moved to the other half to see if they would get the otos to go also. The filter intake (H.O.B) is on the pigmaeus side, outflow ont he oto side. We have only physical and biological filtration going on, since we don't want to take out any of the hormones going on. We also have a sponge filter that I recently added to the cory side.

We are getting a new tank (20Long) set up for holding the fry/future breeding tank for when our fry are old enough to breed, and have 'reduced' the cory floorspace to a little over a third of the tank, so we can get more otos in.

Last summer we had just started the ottos up again, and had a few batches before all but one cory died (long stroy short, we think the city did something funky with the water). The otos were all ok, if any died it was maybe a few fry. Since I had noticed earleier that many of te oto eggs fungussed up, the first batch of the summer I pulled and hatched seperately from the adults. I had a really good hatch rate the first time, but none survived more than a few weeks in my fry tank. The last ones to survive, I think they might've jumped out, as they all just dissappeared (I had no top, and the water was about 2/3ds of a 2.5 gal tank), except for one that had managed to scoot above the water line and dried himself to death. The next batch of eggs I pulled, I planned to hatch and then re-introduce to the adult tank (since the fry had lived longer there, and now I had a method to keep them better protected from the dangers lurking in the other half of the tank), but those all fungussed. I gave up and just decided to leave the eggs be, whatever hatched and lived, lived.

Well, back to the cories: once the pigmeaus died, we tried palateus and habrosus, since both breed well for us. Neither of them got the otos to spawn. Last Fall we picked up more pigmaeus at a club auction (we finally decided if it ain't broke, don't change the system), and even though they looked a little young, decided to toss 'em in and see if anything happened. Right around Christmas the otos bred again. I haven't seen any cory eggs or fry, so I think it might be the mere presence of pigmeaus, and not necessarily the breeding of pigmaeus (unless they're doing it but are only producing a few eggs since they are immature) that works on the otos.

Our tank is off of Detroit city water, so it's relatively soft, and about 7.0 PH. 30-40% water changes 1x/week. We've been feeding zuchini, pleco power pellets, catfish pellets, algae wafers, and even some bloodworms (I usually chop up a cube into finer portions for the pigmaeus, and dump some in with the otos), bloodworms mostly before/during/right after a big front comes through. Primary food is the Zuchini, though.

We have 3 females and 5 males, used to have more but a few died off here and there over the last 2 years, mostly jumpers, but 1 female got herself stuck inside a knotty peice of driftwood and couldn't back herself out and died. We get 1 to 2 dozen eggs per 'batch', and it seems like 10 or so survive to at least a few weeks. It's getting hard to tell, since they're breeding every 2-3 weeks, and we have 5 or 6 'batches' now. Last time I counted, we had over 40 fry since Christmas. We've moved some of the older fry, to decrease food competition and crowding of the babies. We seemed to get more fry at first, don't know if this was because they weren't breeding for a while or if they had more 'space'.

The otos like to lay the eggs on the underside of anubias and swordplant (they would probably lay on other plants, but that's what we keep). I have 2 fake swordplants with fabric leaves (the kind where all the leaves still stick straight up no matter how much you try to get the plastic to bend a little and look 'natural') that they will lay eggs in (they also like to hang out between the leaces of these), and I've even seen eggs laid on glass, near the corner of the tank. The eggs seem to loose most of their stickiness before they hatch, as several fall off, and I saw one of the eggs that was laid on glass get knocked off from a glancing blow of an oto near it. Eventually I'll probably remove the gravel in the oto half of the tank and plant the plants in plastic tubs of gravel, to help prevent the eggs from getting wedged in. Also, right now I have to siphon into a bucket when I gravel vack, since I always seem to catch a few fry when I clean up.

I think others have been able to get regular otos to breed without the pigmeaus, but that seems to be the key trigger for us. If you like cories it's worth a shot, so even if they don't end up doing the trick for your otos you have yet another neat fish.

Hope this helps!

Mike_Noren · Post by **Mike_Noren** » 05 Mar 2007, 08:39

MatsP wrote: No, I'm not talking of a Ion-exchange unit of the type that is called a "water softener". I'm talking of a proper De-Ionization unit

I stand corrected; that type of unit was not known to me.

Bas Pels · Post by **Bas Pels** » 05 Mar 2007, 11:11

Perhaps some clarification is due:

Both types function by exchanging ions,. However, if sodium (Na+) and chloring (Cl-) are exxchanged, a salt solutioon will result.

However, it is also possible to exchange acid (H+) and basic (OH-) exchanging stuff. H+ and OH- = H2O, better known as water.

Why the first type is excists? The regeneration is much less costly, because less harmfull chemicals are used, and for quite a lot op used this watter suffices.

Obviously, these softener types are for fish keeping of no value

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 05 Mar 2007, 13:16

Bas Pels wrote:Perhaps some clarification is due:

Both types function by exchanging ions,. However, if sodium (Na+) and chloring (Cl-) are exxchanged, a salt solutioon will result.

However, it is also possible to exchange acid (H+) and basic (OH-) exchanging stuff. H+ and OH- = H2O, better known as water.

Why the first type is excists? The regeneration is much less costly, because less harmfull chemicals are used, and for quite a lot op used this watter suffices.

Obviously, these softener types are for fish keeping of no value

Yes, indeed, the two types are similar in the internal function. And for washing machines, dish-washers and kettles, the replacement of Calcium Carbonate into Sodium Chloride is a useful thing - because Calcium Carbonate is what sticks to heating elements and blocks the holes in the shower head for example. Sodium Chloride being many times more easily dissolved in water means that it's not going to leave a residue for most applications.

For fish-keeping, you want to REMOVE the ions completely (and adding H+ and OH- in equivalent amounts means that we end up with pure water, which is exactly what we wanted!)

--
Mats

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 06 Mar 2007, 12:39

As I have posted before ,my tap water beeing very hard I have been considering adding a water softening system to my home.Would this be of any benefit to my fish? If so would it also be a good idea to have 2 lines going to my fish room?One with the softened water & one with the harder tap water. This way I could supply softer water for the fish that like it & hard for the ones that like that.
I do like the idea of also adding the cory's.I did try this but they did not do well,they were not pigmaeus. So if this could be the ones to use I am willing to try anything.What would be a good number to put in a 35 gal. with about 30 oto's?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 06 Mar 2007, 12:51

A traditional "home water softener" is what Mike thought I was talking about. Whilst it may be a good idea for your household items such as showers, dish-washer, washing machine and such, it's not what your fishes want, because (as described above) it only replaces the hardness with salt, and from the fishes perspective, it's not WHAT kind of ions are in the water that matters (this DOES matter to dish-washers, etc), but rather the conductivity of the water. As one calcium ion is actually replaced by TWO sodium ions, it's not any gain at all to make that replacement.

There have been suggestions that using a ion-exchange unit BEFORE a Reverse Osmosis unit can have some slight benefit for the flow-rate and life-time of the RO membrane - so if you're getting an RO unit, you may want to consider connecting it to the soft water supply instead of the "hard" water of your tap. However, bear in mind that water pressure is also important for production speed of the RO unit, so if you loose pressure via the water sotener, then you may get better results with the RO unit directly connected to the hard water.

I doubt that there will be ANY difference in hard or soft water going through a DI unit (such as the Kent one in a link in a previous post).

It's also not recommended to use RO or DI water for drinking purposes, as it's TOO LOW in minerals!

--
Mats

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 23 Mar 2007, 15:52

I have been looking into different softening methods.But before commiting to one or the other I thouht in the meantime I would try the rain water method. The tank water is : gh=220,kh=170,dh=12.32,ph=8.2.

rain water is:
gh=40,kh=20,dh=2.24,ph=7.2-7.4.

What would be the best method to soften the tank water with the rain water? What percent water change at a time & how often as well as how low should I drop it?

MatsP · Post by **MatsP** » 23 Mar 2007, 16:02

I'd say you can use rainwater the same way you'd use RO water. I'd probably aim for a KH of 50-80, and let the other bits be whatever they happen to be. Which means that you need to replace a HUGE chunk of your tank-water to get it that far down. This in turn means that you shouldn't be doing it all in one go. Make 10-30% water changes with rain-water, starting with small changes (because the difference between the rain-water and the tank-water is bigger at the beginning), and gradually increasing the changes towards 30%, keeping an eye on all the water parameters, particularly KH and pH.

--
Mats

huk chun chu · Post by **huk chun chu** » 23 Mar 2007, 16:46

Thanks : Mats

I will start by doing 10% water changes.How often should I do these changes? As an example should I do the first 2 or 3 changes at 10% then move to 20% then 30% & how often (daily,every other day?)What would you recommend?

breeding oto cats

breeding oto cats

Otocinclus

Breeding Otos