Crossbreeding ancistrus and genetics

[zenkatydid]

Hi.

I have an adult male peppermist bristlenose and a adult female albino bristlenose in a 4ft community tank. Is it possible they can breed, and if so, what sort babies would they produce?

Further - does anyone know how the genetics of these animals work? I would assume the albino trait a simple recessive (ie. would breed as per Mendelian genetics) - and is actually a variation of the standard brown ancistrus sp., and thus the same, genetically - is this a fair assumption? Can you indeed breed an albino and a brown together? Then, is the peppermint simply another colour variation, or is it a completely different species?

Thanks for any help you can provide

Katy

[Barbie]

This topic has been somewhat heatedly discussed lately. IMO, the albino is going to be one of a few different species that are sold as "common" bristlenose. The peppermint is going to be a blackwater species that shouldn't readily cross with a common type of bristlenose, in my experience. The fact that you're in Aus. could mean that you do have an albino strain of peppermint bristlenose (it's been debated that your peppermints are also hybrids, but I'll leave that argument to people that live close enough to see them!). If your albino is the same base species as the peppermints, then crossing the two wouldn't cross any problem. Albinism doesn't make them a new species, just a color variant of the same species. Does that answer the question?

Barbie

[apistomaster]

As Barbie said, this question came up recently.
Common Ancistrus sp 3 X Albino sp 3= 100% normal phenotypes, heterozygous for albinism.
If the F1 cross is done with their fry you will get by genotype, 25% pure Normal, 50% heterozygous but normal phenotype and the last 25% will be pure albinos. This is what Mendelian genetics would predict. I have carried out this cross and the results were exactly as would be predicted.

[Loracidlover]

Its an intresting one this, as both you and apistomaster said, the albinism phenotype is sometimes a simple matter of a recessive allele at a single loci, with a recssive homozygote required for albinism (classic mendelian 3:1 normal:albino ratio being observed in heterozygote cross as apistomaster described).

However, my feeling is that sometimes it is not that simple - it is not uncommon for people attempting to breed albino ancistrus to mate two albino parents and produce all brown young. This obviously confuses the single loci mendelian dominance model described above, it may be that the are several loci at which genes for albinism are found - the all brown fry could be the result of two parents with recessive homozygotes at two different loci, both of which, however, code for albinism. Thus all young are heterozygous for the albinism trait at both loci, and are all brown as a result. There is also the possibility of epistatic intraction between the two loci which could further confuse young ratios and really muddies the waters.
The inclusion of the possibility of species hybridization makes things even more complicated (I imagine this may be possible due to the apparently low level of divergence of some of the "common" bristlenose species, I'm aware this goes against the biological species concept, but thats a whole other kettle of fish). The hybridization of species really mixes things up in the young, the mixing of genomes making it very very difficult to try and pull apart the albinism source.

So basically - the genetics of ancistrus albinism can likely vary wildly from very simple to very complicated.

As far as your fish go zenkatydid, though albino and brown ancistrus mate (mine do), I'd imagine the genetic divergence of "peppermint" ancistrus is significant enough to stop hybridisation, as Barbie said (I've never heard of a common/peppermint cross). Unless your albino is infact an albino peppermint (Do these appear in peppermint spawns in Aus?), in which case mating may be on the cards.

Conrad

[apistomaster]

The majority of the normal fin albino Ancistrus and short fin normal colored are Ancistrus sp 3 and with this most common strain, the genetic s could not be more straight forward.

I don't know enough about all the other variants such as piebalds/long fins and the like to comment on their genetics, let alone any derived from peppermints of Australia.

[Loracidlover]

The majority of the normal fin albino Ancistrus and short fin normal colored are Ancistrus sp 3 and with this most common strain, the genetic s could not be more straight forward.

Though I agree that the majority of brown and albino ancistrus sold are indeed sp. 3, I still think, as i mentioned before, the genetics of albinism are not as straight forwards as you suggest. Though the matings you have performed with your sp.3 do support a single loci recessive allele coding for albinism, the production of brown young from other albino pairs of sp.3 (I have a friend who's ancistrus did just this) means (in some cases) there must be something else at work other than a simple single loci recessive allele for albinism in sp.3. In addition some spawnings with supposedly pure breeding parents often produce fry ratios very far removed from what would be predicted by a single loci mendelian punnet square, I guess these could be checked with a chi-squared test but sometimes it's clear something unexpected is going on. What exactly, I've little idea! I just figured it may be some of the things (epistasis, multiple loci) I mentioned.

Cheers, Conrad.

[Barbie]

I still think that brown fry from two albino parents is a result of a cross of a different species of Ancistrus that is the base for the albino strain. I have absolutely no scientific data to back this up though, only my personal experiences and opinion ;).

Barbie

[apistomaster]

I agree with Barbie. It only makes sense that albinos X albinos of the same strain would produce albinos. There is a very high probability that more than one species exists in both normal and albino form which explains the unexpected results. The other possibility is that within the same strain/species that the mutation for albinism arose more than once and at different loci.

[Borbi]

Hi Larry and Barbie,

I would like to slightly disagree. Based on pure chemistry, the synthesis of color pigments within the fish should be a somewhat complex thing. Therefore, the synthesis of pigments should be a stepwise process, including different enzymes and starting materials.
If now in this chain a single step fails due to a mutation, the result can (not necessarily is) be albinism.
Assuming, then, that different mutations in different locations may occur resulting in albinism due to damage in different places of the chain leading to the synthesis of pigment (this is just a question of chance for me: assume 5 different loci that could produce albinism, then, having it at the same position in two individual mutation events is just a 25% chance), I don´t find it unusual, that two albinos from different strains, but the same species result initially in normal colored offspring, because the intact part of the genome of the one parent "corrects" for the damage in the genome of the second.

Based on the still strong fertility of A. sp. (3) and it´s color variants I have some doubts that A. sp. (3) is truly a mess of many different species, but that point only a genetic analysis could clarify.

Cheers, Sandor

[Loracidlover]

Thankyou Sandor, you explained the pigmentation coding process better than I could have. I've always understood the relative high frequency of pigment mutations in fish (leucism, albinism etc.) is due to this particularly vulnerable chain of coding. I'm glad it exist however since the proportion of colour mutants makes for many interesting (yet still naturally occuring) individuals.

I still think that brown fry from two albino parents is a result of a cross of a different species of Ancistrus that is the base for the albino strain

nos.[/quote]

Though I agree that sometimes this would be the case, given the likely amalgamation of different species that appear as "common bristlenose", it's still entirely possible for two albinos of the same species to produce brown young - as Sandor explained, colour mutations (in this case albinism) could well occur at several loci for the same species, which may not correspond for two albino parents, giving type-revertant young.

The other possibility is that within the same strain/species that the mutation for albinism arose more than once and at different loci.

I thought you were agreeing with Barbie that brown young from albino parents was the result of hybridization of two differnet albino species of ancistrus, surely this point you make allows for albinos of the same species to produce brown young as Sandor described.

All very interesting, cheers, Conrad.

[Barbie]

Which is why I stated I have no scientific data to back up my opinion on the subject ;). Without DNA testing there is not going to be any way to determine which is correct, IMO. There are dozens of species of bristlenose that look very similar and people have been indiscriminately mixing them and selling fry for years because there was no definitive method for differentiating which fish you had if you weren't aware of their collection locale.

I just know that for years I purchased albino bristlenose from 3 or 4 different locations around the country and when you crossed them, you always had albino bn fry. When the longfin strain came along, that definitely all changed and suddenly people all over the world were getting brown fry from crossing two standard finned albinos. I had happened to have a spare longfin female growing out in a tank with a large male regular albino. I didn't think she was anywhere near large enough to spawn, but obviously she did! All of the resulting fry were brown, with a mix of about 50/50% long and short fin. I do realize it doesn't mean they are for sure a different species, but it's just as reasonable of an explanation as two loci. There's just no way to know for sure at this point.

Barbie

[Loracidlover]

Thats very interesting about your long fin female producing all brown yound when bred with an albino male. As you say, theres no way to know whether it was the result of the long fin fish being a different species or different loci etc.
As you suggest, it may well mean long finned individuals were originally a mutation in a different species to the other "common" albinos you purchased; just more potential evidence that the bristlenoses in shops today are a mess of different species .

Cheers, Conrad

[MouthBrooders]

Wow. thanks, this thread is answering alot of my questions concerning my 2 Abinos producing brown fry? I have isolated this pair and has made sure my others groups don't mix and we'll see what happened. I have seen Albinos produced by my group of fish, but these were just un controlled accidental spawns in a grow out community tank. I'll keep you guys posted.

[FuglyDragon]

I accidentally ended up with a hybrid cross between a Tamboensis Male and a Female L182(? not 100% sure on the 182 but I think thats what she is)... dropped the tambo in the L182 tank while I was cleaning out his and forgot to move him back...

The tambo is brown with a striated wiggly pattern, the L182 is medium grey with fine white spots.

The resulting fry are medium / dark grey with medium sized white spots and very noticeable browny / orange leading edges to dorsal and pectoral fins, they also have the L182 white bar on the trailing edge of the tail and dorsal... they look quite strikeing... and seem very hardy, no more losses than I get from a brood of commons.

[Loracidlover]

Hello fugly dragon, that's very interesting about your accidental hybridisation, do you have any photos you could post showing the offspring?

Cheers, Conrad

[FuglyDragon]

They are still a little too small to get good photos, as soon as I get some will post them.

Male is...


Female is...

[Loracidlover]

Nice fish there mate, though I'm pretty sure that male is a L159, and not a tamboensis. I look forwards to seeing pics of the offspring.

Cheers, Conrad

[FuglyDragon]

Made up a collage of several fry and 1 common sp3 for comparison.

[Loracidlover]

Very interesting pictures, thanks for posting them, looks like there's quite a lot of variation in the fry, the fish at the bottom right looks to have a 'brush tail' like that of A. dolichopterus.
These pics make me think that a lot of Ancistrus species would be capable of hybridiastion.

Conrad

[FuglyDragon]

Yes there is variation between fry, some are very dark almost black, and some are much more orange. Will be interesting to see what hppens to the spots as they get larger, the female's spots are very fine whereas the youngs are more medium sized. Looking at the cat-e-log you are of course right he is L159 not tambo (was listed as a. tamboensis by the importer and I never checked into it. Had 1 male and 2 femles but lost both females to some kind of bacterial infection and couldnt get any more so the male ended up as the cleaning crew of one of my grow out tanks, wasnt till i was cleaning the tank and dropped him in with the L182's (4 if them all females ) that an id became important.

[missplecolover]

Hi guys, so...I have a pair of L144 Ancistrus breeding regularly, about 5th spawn now.

I was wondering about adding another female to the tank as I know a male will breed with more than one female ?? (please correct me if am wrong)

Does anyone know what best variety to mix ? I was thinking maybe a long fin common or super red....are calico ancistrus albino cross common ?

thanks guys

Vicki

[Barbie]

If you want to breed another "type" or species of pleco, you need to get a whole group of them. You don't switch up a partner here or there or you're just making brown mutt fish.

Barbie