L46 and the Belo Monte dam

All posts regarding the care and breeding of these catfishes from South America.
Post Reply
plecoboy
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:28 pm
My cats species list: 9 (i:0, k:1)
My aquaria list: 1 (i:1)
My BLogs: 4 (i:0, p:63)
Spotted: 1
Location 2: De Pere, WI
Interests: plecos

L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by plecoboy » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:22 pm

I was looking at this map of the Rio Xingu and started thinking would the zebras (collected at Altamira) actually be impacted by the building of the proposed dam at Belo Monte? If you notice all of the dark green on the map, that is a lowland area that would probably be flooded by the new dam. Is it possible the zebras won't be affected?


Image
Breeding List: L46,L66,L129,L136a,L183,L201,L260,L270,L333,L340,L400,L411, and Lower Rio Xingus VISIT PLECOBOY AQUATICS ON FACEBOOK

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:29 pm

No H. zebra are collected at Altamira and yes they will be impacted on the proposed dam that no longer is proposed, it's a fact that they will build the dam. Tomorrow I will use your map and show where the H. zebra are located and how the dam will look like etc.

Janne

plecoboy
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Jun 23, 2003 10:28 pm
My cats species list: 9 (i:0, k:1)
My aquaria list: 1 (i:1)
My BLogs: 4 (i:0, p:63)
Spotted: 1
Location 2: De Pere, WI
Interests: plecos

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by plecoboy » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:04 am

Thanks Janne, hey do you know the collection point for the Lower Xingu hypans too?
Breeding List: L46,L66,L129,L136a,L183,L201,L260,L270,L333,L340,L400,L411, and Lower Rio Xingus VISIT PLECOBOY AQUATICS ON FACEBOOK

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:48 am

Todo.

Janne

celticfish
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:51 am
My images: 1
My cats species list: 11 (i:0, k:0)
My aquaria list: 7 (i:0)
Spotted: 1
Location 1: Singapore
Location 2: Singapore
Interests: Scuba diving, divination and FISH!
Pleco fish and Hypancistrus and Pseudacanthicus to be more specific! hehe

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by celticfish » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:57 am

Always appreciate your direct information from Brazil! :thumbsup:

Am I correct to understand that the "dam" is actually a series of 5 dams along the Rio Xingu?
With the series of dams starting from Belo Monte to (unknown to me)?
It is a good day to die!!!

zenyfish
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:03 pm
My cats species list: 15 (i:0, k:0)
Location 1: Orange County, California, USA
Location 2: Orange County, California, USA

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by zenyfish » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:19 am

celticfish wrote: With the series of dams starting from Belo Monte to (unknown to me)?
The river is flowing from south to north in the diagram above I assume? So everything up river will be impacted, as shown in flooded areas.

Seems like there will be a dam downriver also from Belo Monte, as the area is also flooded.

Mike_Noren
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:40 pm
I've donated: $30.00!
My articles: 1
My images: 37
My cats species list: 5 (i:0, k:1)
Spotted: 9
Location 1: Sweden
Location 2: Sweden

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Mike_Noren » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:27 am

More dams have to be built to allow this dam to produce energy year round, so they're a given. Also everything downstream will be impacted, as the river is expected to completely dry out (!) in the dry season after the dam is built. Rheophilic species like H. zebra, gold nugget etc in the affected area of the river will basically only survive in tributaries, if at all.

zenyfish
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:03 pm
My cats species list: 15 (i:0, k:0)
Location 1: Orange County, California, USA
Location 2: Orange County, California, USA

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by zenyfish » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:41 am

Mike_Noren wrote:Also everything downstream will be impacted, as the river is expected to completely dry out (!) in the dry season after the dam is built.
I did not realize they were going to dry out the river downstream. Not just fish, but all river life will be gone ... really depressing.

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:47 pm

The blue is the dam's called "Belo Monte Hydroelectric power plant", the black line is the plant and the red lines is where they cut of the river. 2 channels are built to lead the water to the lower dam at Belo Monte. Between the 2 red lines (The big bend or Volta Grande) no water will flow from the main river Rio xingu, there are one tributary in this area but very small compared with the amount of water flowing in xingu. The yellow mark is the known localities of H. zebra. It's the big bend that risk to dry out completely under dry season, under all circumstances the water flow in the big bend will only be a promille of what it is today, in the big bend we find many endemic species and species adapted to fast oxygenated water flow will not survive in the dam's.
getmap3.gif
Janne

jimoo
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:55 pm
I've donated: $10.00!
My cats species list: 4 (i:0, k:2)
My aquaria list: 1 (i:0)
Spotted: 2
Location 1: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by jimoo » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:07 pm

Simply incredible. So sad. I wish there were another way.

Linus_Cello
Posts: 410
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:43 pm
My cats species list: 1 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 1
Location 2: Washington DC

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Linus_Cello » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:38 pm

Is this dam a World Bank Project? This makes me think of the Three Gorges Dam: I should go and see the river and it's natural treasures before they're destroyed.

Does anyone know if there are any US botanical or zoological institutions that will be working in the area to sample, collect and perhaps transport live specimens to keep as a separate population in captivity in a public facility (zoo/garden)? I'm hoping that some Brazillian Universities or zoological institution will be setting up a captive breeding program for some of the animals in that area.

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:20 pm

Does anyone know if there are any US botanical or zoological institutions that will be working in the area to sample, collect and perhaps transport live specimens to keep as a separate population in captivity in a public facility (zoo/garden)?
Not allowed, and it's understandable.
I'm hoping that some Brazillian Universities or zoological institution will be setting up a captive breeding program for some of the animals in that area.
There are many projects on going within the universities here in Brazil, I'm involved in some of the projects too. The near larger future effects is among fish species and native people, not so much plants and other animals but of course they will be affected in the long term. One of the largest problem that really disturb all kind of conservation projects, field studies and the efforts to increase the value of this particular area of Rio xingu is the illegal trade of fish species, it creates daily conflicts and it decrease all involveds efforts to work with these projects... it take the energy out of people.

"Just empty the shit and don't show any respect for the environment", than nothing will be saved.

Janne

Mike_Noren
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:40 pm
I've donated: $30.00!
My articles: 1
My images: 37
My cats species list: 5 (i:0, k:1)
Spotted: 9
Location 1: Sweden
Location 2: Sweden

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Mike_Noren » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:56 pm

Janne wrote: One of the largest problem that really disturb all kind of conservation projects, field studies and the efforts to increase the value of this particular area of Rio xingu is the illegal trade of fish species, it creates daily conflicts and it decrease all involveds efforts to work with these projects
Oh come on. The Brazilian government is completely destroying one of the richest rivers on Earth, under bullshit pretexts after commissioning a bullshit environmental impact study, a project which even have seen several enviromental activists murdered, and you claim the illegal trade in fish is the biggest problem?
That's ridiculous. It's like complaining about termites in a burning house.

And the projects you're talking about, I assume you mean captive breeding programs? That's not conservation, it's at best a band-aid solution for a very few commercially important species.

User avatar
Suckermouth
Posts: 1609
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:29 pm
My images: 17
My cats species list: 22 (i:0, k:0)
My aquaria list: 2 (i:0)
My BLogs: 6 (i:0, p:237)
Spotted: 14
Location 1: USA
Location 2: Washington, DC

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Suckermouth » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:24 pm

Man, this is depressing. I knew the dam was bad, but not this much.
- Milton Tan
Research Scientist @ Illinois Natural History Survey

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:31 pm

Mike_Noren wrote:Oh come on. The Brazilian government is completely destroying one of the richest rivers on Earth, under bullshit pretexts after commissioning a bullshit environmental impact study, a project which even have seen several enviromental activists murdered, and you claim the illegal trade in fish is the biggest problem?
That's ridiculous. It's like complaining about termites in a burning house.
Yes, its true that this rich river will soner or later be destroyed and the government have already made this decissions, so whats your point... you have to live in the reality? The illegal trade was small at that time the government made the environmental impact study which of course was really bad but the illegal trade is a problem today, but you really mean thats no idea to make any more studies because there are already one made and to late? I really don't get your point and you are working as scientist at NRM... do you want to make the research after some species already is extinct? For the moment there are several universities here working and want to work with projects concerning the huge impact this future dam construction will have on the Rio xingu system, I think you also want these researchers and scientist's to find and describe all species, make as much field studies they can when it' still possible?
Mike_Noren wrote:And the projects you're talking about, I assume you mean captive breeding programs? That's not conservation, it's at best a band-aid solution for a very few commercially important species.
You should not assume nothing, you should only use facts like all scientist's, researchers etc. if not we will have the same problem like they have with the climate change.


Janne

Mike_Noren
Posts: 1395
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:40 pm
I've donated: $30.00!
My articles: 1
My images: 37
My cats species list: 5 (i:0, k:1)
Spotted: 9
Location 1: Sweden
Location 2: Sweden

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Mike_Noren » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:55 pm

Janne wrote:but you really mean thats no idea to make any more studies because there are already one made and to late?
No, I mean that complaining about illegal capture of fish in a river scheduled to be utterly destroyed is silly. I don't think I could have designed a more destructive plan than what's in store for Rio Xingu if I tried - they're even going to divert the entire river several kilometers through concrete tubes! Poaching can, at worst, reduce the numbers of a few commercially important species, but the dam means wholesale destruction of the entire ecosystem and everything in it. I don't see how complaining about poaching makes sense in this context.
I think you also want these researchers and scientist's to find and describe all species, make as much field studies they can when it' still possible?
Of course, but this has what to do with illegal trade in fish, exactly?
You should not assume nothing, you should only use facts like all scientist's, researchers etc
And how could I possibly know which programs you were talking about? If you're not talking about selling animals from captive breeding programs, then I have no idea what conservation programs might find poaching of fish "one of the largest problems".
-- Disclaimer: All I write is strictly my personal and frequently uninformed opinion, I do not speak for the Swedish Museum of Natural History or FishBase! --

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:18 pm

Mike_Noren wrote:No, I mean that complaining about illegal capture of fish in a river scheduled to be utterly destroyed is silly.
Of course, but this has what to do with illegal trade in fish, exactly?
You know just like I know that there are quite many undescribed species with no research so ever made living in extremely small localities within this part of Rio xingu... they disapear much faster than you can imagine. Than we send some researchers from the UFPA to make a study hopefully find these species?? Do you really understand how dam difficult it's just to find them and to study them in nature??? This is not tetras living at the shores, this is higly valuable species needing quite large investments for an expedition... I should invite you and bring you to Rio xingu, put on you some diving equipment and through you in the river ;)
Mike_Noren wrote:I don't think I could have designed a more destructive plan than what's in store for Rio Xingu if I tried - they're even going to divert the entire river several kilometers through concrete tubes! Poaching can, at worst, reduce the numbers of a few commercially important species, but the dam means wholesale destruction of the entire ecosystem and everything in it. I don't see how complaining about poaching makes sense in this context.
This is history, now we have to face the reality and make the best of the situation before the impacts starts to affect the environment... ok?
Mike_Noren wrote:And how could I possibly know which programs you were talking about? If you're not talking about selling animals from captive breeding programs, then I have no idea what conservation programs might find poaching of fish "one of the largest problems".
You know that they only true conservation can only be made in the natural habitat of a species, let us work with that and let me teach them how many of these species biological reproduction works and what needs they need to survive in nature. You know they have not started to build the dam, let see if we can save some parts of this river.

Janne

User avatar
MatsP
Posts: 21038
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:58 pm
My articles: 4
My images: 28
My cats species list: 117 (i:3, k:14)
My aquaria list: 10 (i:8)
My BLogs: 4 (i:0, p:97)
Spotted: 23
Location 1: North of Cambridge
Location 2: England.

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by MatsP » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:30 pm

Just to confirm the statement that Xingu is one of the richest natural resources [with regards to fish at least]:
I did some collation of the occurrence data on Loricariidae in the Cat-eLog, and the single body of water with the most number, of species is Rio Xingu with 42 species, with another 10 if we count upper/middle/lower Xingu as well. All species listed for the Amazon is 46.

--
Mats

User avatar
Janne
Expert
Posts: 1759
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:16 am
My articles: 10
My images: 248
Spotted: 73
Location 2: Belém, Brazil
Contact:

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by Janne » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:55 pm

Mats wrote:I did some collation of the occurrence data on Loricariidae in the Cat-eLog, and the single body of water with the most number, of species is Rio Xingu with 42 species, with another 10 if we count upper/middle/lower Xingu as well. All species listed for the Amazon is 46.
I made a list of Loricariidae species occur in Rio xingu for some years ago, my list contained of +80 species and I'm absolutely sure we can find +100 species without any problem, counting all kind of catfishes we will easily pass +150 withing a few weeks of field studies. The minimum of fish species in Rio xingu with tributaries will easily increase to over 500 species and my guess is somewhere between 700-800 species of fishes can be found within the whole Rio xingu including all tributaries... the area covered is of the size of France for 1 main river and it's in the tropics.

Janne

User avatar
MatsP
Posts: 21038
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:58 pm
My articles: 4
My images: 28
My cats species list: 117 (i:3, k:14)
My aquaria list: 10 (i:8)
My BLogs: 4 (i:0, p:97)
Spotted: 23
Location 1: North of Cambridge
Location 2: England.

Re: L46 and the Belo Monte dam

Post by MatsP » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:21 pm

Janne,

I'm fully aware that we do not have ALL species that are in Rio Xingu (or the Amazon itself!). I was just trying to illustrate that Xingu is indeed species rich.

--
Mats

Post Reply