L46 and the Belo Monte dam

[Janne]

But what I'm thinking in matters like this is, please, Brasil, don't make the errors Europeans made

And stop compare the rest of the world with Brazil, no one benefits from destructive criticism from foreign countries that already have devastated their own countries, it doesn't helps to say that one type of forest is ok to devastate and another is not... use constructive criticism instead.

Janne

[apistomaster]

But what I'm thinking in matters like this is, please, Brasil, don't make the errors Europeans made

And stop compare the rest of the world with Brazil, no one benefits from destructive criticism from foreign countries that already have devastated their own countries, it doesn't helps to say that one type of forest is ok to devastate and another is not... use constructive criticism instead.

Janne

We could substitute any country in the world at a similar state of development and wealth but the criticisms would still be valid.
This is no longer a planet where we can afford not to criticize any country's environmental policies which are extremely harmful.
Brazil doesn't deserve any less or more criticism than any other country which acts without regard to having meaningful conservation laws and enforcement. We could just as easily be beating up the countries in the Mekong River system which are also building hydroelectric projects which will guarantee the extinction of it's unique giant catfish. It has become a time when everything has global ramifications.

[Janne]

We could substitute any country in the world at a similar state of development and wealth but the criticisms would still be valid. This is no longer a planet where we can afford not to criticize any country's environmental policies which are extremely harmful. Brazil doesn't deserve any less or more criticism than any other country which acts without regard to having meaningful conservation laws and enforcement. We could just as easily be beating up the countries in the Mekong River system which are also building hydroelectric projects which will guarantee the extinction of it's unique giant catfish. It has become a time when everything has global ramifications.

Ok, let me put it like this instead: have all this criticism had any success concerning the Belo Monte project? Is it better to make something constructive when there are some time left to do something at all? Everyone knows how destructive we are as humans... all over the world we destroy a part of the nature every day, sitting on a forum and only discuss how bad everyone else are is not so constructive in my world. Discuss something you can do to help... to make a difference etc. that is constructive.

Janne

[apistomaster]

I guess we could lobby our Congressmen and the president to consider invading Brazil next instead of Iran.
Only a few non-Brazilians are being allowed to be in your position, Janne, where you are actually there doing what you are allowed.
The rest of us can only practice our rhetorical skills from a distance.
The only options we have from the outside is figure out ways to get the fish out of harms way but that topic is verboten here.

[Mike_Noren]

Ok, let me put it like this instead: have all this criticism had any success concerning the Belo Monte project?

Brazil is presently not getting any criticism at all from europe simply because it is completely unknown to the rank and file members of the environmental organizations here that some 70 dams are planned in the amazon, that about 1/3rd of the amazon will be converted to soy bean plantation, or what all of this means in terms of lost species. The reason they haven't heard about it is partly the myopic focus on global warming, but also because organizations like WWF apparently feel that foreign pressure will only strengthen the resolve of the brazilian government.

So the question actually is: has the LACK of international pressure had any success concerning the Belo Monte dam?

It's pretty obvious the answer to that question is a resounding 'no'.

[Janne]

The only options we have from the outside is figure out ways to get the fish out of harms way but that topic is verboten here.

You missunderstand, it's not forbidden to become active in organisations working against Brazilian development plans or other countries devastating projects, support different NGO's, local organisations that have really difficult to finance their work against governments etc. Everything that helps to prevent or make better within these countries bad things happens... and to support illegal acting like smuggling out animals is not to support them. Everyone can be active in their own way and possibility to do something.

Brazil is presently not getting any criticism at all from europe simply because it is completely unknown to the rank and file members of the environmental organizations here that some 70 dams are planned in the amazon, that about 1/3rd of the amazon will be converted to soy bean plantation, or what all of this means in terms of lost species.

It's not unknown, all the worlds NGO's are active here in Brazil and knows all about the Brazilian plans for the Amazonas.

But, why do you think there are no pressure from foreign countries authorities? If Brazilian go ahead with their plans means a lot of money and income for our "modern countries"... big business is more important than the environment.

The reason they haven't heard about it is partly the myopic focus on global warming, but also because organizations like WWF apparently feel that foreign pressure will only strengthen the resolve of the brazilian government.

This I agree with some parts, not that they not heard about it but that part about focus... focus on global warming have uptaken to much of their time and money and other problems have been put aside.

Janne

[Mike_Noren]

It's not unknown, all the worlds NGO's are active here in Brazil and knows all about the Brazilian plans for the Amazonas.

Yes, it still is unknown to the public and the local members here in europe. A year ago when I started mailing every organization I could think of, absolutely no one knew anything and I got only replies along the lines of "thank you for your concern but what the hell are you talking about". Including from the WWF, which I knew were active in Brazil.

focus on global warming have uptaken to much of their time and money and other problems have been put aside.

The one good thing about the Copenhagen fiasco is that it once again is possible to care about other issues than global warming.
It is only now, this month, that some news about the projects in the amazon have started reaching the public here. Whether that will translate into pressure remains to be seen.

[Janne]

Yes, it still is unknown to the public and the local members here in europe. A year ago when I started mailing every organization I could think of, absolutely no one knew anything and I got only replies along the lines of "thank you for your concern but what the hell are you talking about". Including from the WWF, which I knew were active in Brazil.

You are probably right, you asked me to publish an article in a Swedish newspaper at that time, they may had printed the article but next day everything would be forgotten and not interesting anymore... they prefer to write about what celibrities are doing on their freetime and how the dress, their makeup etc. and no one criticize them for publish such crap when it's so many other important things to write about happens in this world.

WWF must be completely aware of what is happening here, they have been knowing this at least 20 years now... they maybe not have the total biodiversity clear and think it's just a few fishes and some people to move, I don't know because so far none of them have had any success here. The one that have had success to delay so many projects in Brazil is IBAMA, but even for them life is not easy...

Why don't NGO's like WWF, International Rivers or CI for example send out a bulletine to the world press?
Can we suspect other interest behind the silence?

Janne

[apistomaster]

Janne,

You are very right about the large wildlife NGO and their cousins from Greenpeace to all the others not playing any significant role in attempting to at least bring the subject project and others like have failed to help raise the world's public conscience to become aware of the plans to construct many hydroelectric projects throughout Amazonia.
Sometimes the importance of the Amazon rain forest is given more credit for the stabilization of the climate and contributing to using up our excess CO2 and producing O2 than it actually does but they also seem much slower to attempt to save that rain forest than they are to pit their small Zodiacs against Japanese whaling ships.

The UN isn't much help either. It often seems like the status quo of the 196 or so sovereign nations amount to the Balkanization of the planet where what is really needed is a unified approach to managing the planet as a whole. I think we(as in the collective earth's inhabitants) need to have a central planetary government made up of the various states as Canada is one nation of individual provinces, the USA is a a group of 50 States and the EU is made up of its various member countries.
It will never happen in my lifetime but few people understand that the biosphere is made up of a layer hardly thicker than the water on one's body just after turning off the shower. No body politic is prepared to think globally about the global problems of the exceedingly thin veneer of life on the earth.
Our problems are so much more than just the projects to be built in the Rio Xingu drainage. We, myself included allow, ourselves to take our parochial interests as being so important but this piecemeal approach to managing global threats to our biosphere aren't nearly as high on any agenda as they should be.
We will have so much recorded long after it has become too late to save so much which needs to be saved.

[Shane]

We could substitute any country in the world at a similar state of development and wealth but the criticisms would still be valid.
This is no longer a planet where we can afford not to criticize any country's environmental policies which are extremely harmful.
Brazil doesn't deserve any less or more criticism than any other country which acts without regard to having meaningful conservation laws and enforcement. We could just as easily be beating up the countries in the Mekong River system which are also building hydroelectric projects which will guarantee the extinction of it's unique giant catfish. It has become a time when everything has global ramifications.

Very well said! And yes, if we were on a cichlid forum everyone would be beating up Uganda for their (non)management of Lake Victoria. The extinction of the ngege (small cichlids) has been noted as "the greatest mass extinction of vertebrates in recorded human history." Let that thought sink in a bit...

Environmental concerns, other than global warming, just are not getting a lot of play right now and very, very few aid programs address the environment. Donor countries, in Africa especially, are focused on more immediate life and death concerns. Namely food and HIV/AIDS. The US is providing $360 million a year in Uganda to treat Ugandans with HIV/AIDS. Not a dollar of funding, to my knowledge, is provided to help protect the lake.

-Shane

[Mike_Noren]

Why don't NGO's like WWF, International Rivers or CI for example send out a bulletine to the world press?
Can we suspect other interest behind the silence?

I have talked to a lot of people about it, and have been given two reasons why they would not push the issue here in europe:
1) they felt Brazil was extremely nationalistic, and brazilian public opinion would react negatively to "outside interference" in the form of international pressure.
2) the view that there is only room for one environmental issue at a time, and that talking about dams in the Amazon (or the even worse ones on the Mekong) would take attention away from global warming.
My view was and is that the "silent diplomacy" approach doesn't work when it comes to government-caused environmental issues, and that ignoring a present and immediate threat and focussing on a hypothetical future one is idiotic.

[Janne]

The extinction of the ngege (small c*****ds) has been noted as "the greatest mass extinction of vertebrates in recorded human history." Let that thought sink in a bit...

Rio Madeira, Rio Xingu, Rio Tapajos (Amazonas), Congo River (Democratic Republic of Congo) and southeast Asia with Mekong river and many other rivers through the whole tropical belt around the world... if all these projects fullfills we will wipe out so many species that the extinction of species in Lake Victoria will appear like it had never take place.

The US is providing $360 million a year in Uganda to treat Ugandans with HIV/AIDS. Not a dollar of funding, to my knowledge, is provided to help protect the lake.

How much money does all NGO's together receive each year from donations etc? Must be a few billion USD, of course they have and are doing a lot for many different projects around the world to protect mammals and reefs in the tropic oceans, things that are easy to see and are apreciated in general among us humans, I think one of the problems NGO's may have is to make all problems visible for everyone so it can get accepted to be protected... or something similar like that.

they felt Brazil was extremely nationalistic, and brazilian public opinion would react negatively to "outside interference" in the form of international pressure.

It's true and the government is probably quite tired to listen on NGO's etc. but one positive thing is that people in general here in Brazil are being more and more engaged to protect their enviroment... they even demonstrate on the streets here in Belém sometimes, I think they are quite open to receive help from international organisations even if that is not so popular among the authorities.

I also agree with that NGO's has to be focused on both, devastating of the nature that is ongoing (that contributes to the climate change) and second the climate change itself...

The funders...
http://equator-principles.com/
...and how it works in the reality.
http://www.banktrack.org/

Janne

[matthewfaulkner]

From the maps Ive looked at the Belo Monte dam is located quite far down length of the entire river. How far up the river will the dam effect? Are there any other dams planned/preposed upstream?

[grokefish]

Oh dear.

Janne is quite correct, if enough information can be gathered then there is an outside chance that some of the river can be saved, it is more likely than if no information is gathered.
Sadly if you are around on the day the dam is completed it will be easy and cost effective to collect specimens as they flap around helplessly in the dry river bed or float to the surface after being starved of oxygen.
Are Parancustrus species affected by this plan?
The scale of this dam and it's ecological destruction is unbelievable it'll probably be on sky TV on extreme engineering one day, I wonder if they will highlight the destruction and loss of biodiversity that occurs in the program?

Green power production eh.

[Janne]

From the maps Ive looked at the Belo Monte dam is located quite far down length of the entire river. How far up the river will the dam effect? Are there any other dams planned/preposed upstream?

The 2 dams will be where the diversity are as greatest and of course they have affect upstrems the river, from beginning there was 7 dam planned along xingu... how many it finally will be I think no one knows for sure yet.

Janne

[wrasse]

Janne, I hope it gets across to you how passionate we all are about the Xingu. I reckon we all envy what you have outside your back door. I'm sure everyone on this forum would like to see it preserved and protected.
I don't think the people of the UK for starters, have a clue of what's going on with the Bel Amonte dam and its implications, they haven't heard of it. I reckon the news-makers expose us to a certain amount of environmental concerns, and I reckon they decide on how much... so as not to over-load us with environmental 'stuff'. After all, they don't want us to switch channels.
So in your opinion, is there something that Planet Catfish could do, collectively, to support and highlight the conservation work being done and what's needed? Is it realistic to ask this? I do hope Jools and all concerned don't mind this question being asked - I don't mean to tread on any toes... I guess a forum is where issues are discussed, not where action is taken...?

[Janne]

So in your opinion, is there something that Planet Catfish could do, collectively, to support and highlight the conservation work being done and what's needed? Is it realistic to ask this?

The problem is that no real conservation have been started yet, thats a question for the court to force IBAMA to fulfill what they should already have started. What I can see is not that we can prevent that the dam is built, but with some forces we may can have some influence over the construction make it as less devastating as possible... absolutely force them to not dry out the big bend. The other part of my projects is to create breeding programs for certain species (can't breed them all) but that is both of commercial nature and to provide local and federal universities possibilities for research etc.

But Animal Planet maybe should make a documentary about Rio xingu... it was little pitty they chosed the wrong rivers when they made the Amazonas underwater movie (don't remember the name). Rio xingu is one of the most beautiful places on earth both under and above the water, much easier for underwater pictures and where else can you swim with 2-2,5 m Plesiotrygon iwamae (I think fishBase put the size ~60 cm) in clear water, hundreds of colourful plecos and other fishes.

Janne

[Shane]

it will be easy and cost effective to collect specimens as they flap around helplessly in the dry river bed or float to the surface after being starved of oxygen.

Having now done quite a bit of collecting in and around the Owen Falls Dam at Jinja, I have come across a huge negative factor that I never before realized was an issue: temperature. Flow through the dam is stopped at some point in the middle of the night to start building up the water reserves that will be needed the next evening when electricity demands are highest.
As the sun rises the water level of the river downstream from the dam slowly lowers all day as flow is cut to a trickle. It gets several degrees warmer than what it did before the dam was built. At the same time all day water is building up at a depth behind the dam and it is very cold as it is deep, not wide, and thus the vast majority of the water is not warmed by the sun.
Power consumption peaks about 6 pm so the dam opens its gates at about 5 pm to start generating electricity. The new water coming from behind the dam may be as cold as 60F, while the fish have spent the day in a river all day that might reach 80F. Also, because this release process takes place at night that cool water coming from the dam stays cold for several miles downstream.
As aquarists, I do not need to explain the impact on most tropical fishes that comes with dropping the temperature quickly by such severe amounts day after day.
The "new" method of fishing is to trap or pick up animals stunned by the temperature drop.

This "cycle" probably has little impact when a hydroelectric dam is built on a temperate body of water. However, the impact on a tropical body of water is huge as stable temps are one of the conditions the animals are adapted to. I wonder if anyone has ever studied this?

-Shane

[Suckermouth]

This "cycle" probably has little impact when a hydroelectric dam is built on a temperate body of water. However, the impact on a tropical body of water is huge as stable temps are one of the conditions the animals are adapted to. I wonder if anyone has ever studied this?

-Shane

A quick search on Google scholar says yes, but I can't be bothered to actually read any of them at this moment.

[Jools]

So in your opinion, is there something that Planet Catfish could do, collectively, to support and highlight the conservation work being done and what's needed? Is it realistic to ask this? I do hope Jools and all concerned don't mind this question being asked - I don't mean to tread on any toes... I guess a forum is where issues are discussed, not where action is taken...?

There's already conservation planning in progress as kicked off at the international plecos event. Janne has also been invited, some time ago now, to write all of this up for a more permanent article (or series of articles) to allow others to get a view of the situation.

Jools

[2wheelsx2]

There's already conservation planning in progress as kicked off at the international plecos event. Janne has also been invited, some time ago now, to write all of this up for a more permanent article (or series of articles) to allow others to get a view of the situation.

Jools

That would be great. It would give us (meaning me) who have very little background and current knowledge on the situation, a lot more insight on what's happening there and how to prevent it elsewhere from happening, if at all possible.

[apistomaster]

There are many engineering features which can help mitigate down stream effects of dams and to account for the migrating species of large Characins which would not cost much. Temperature control is easy; let more water from the bottom of the reservoir cool the downstream minimum flows. Fish ladders work for salmon but not well. Some projects in the USA on dams placed on the Columbia River tributaries(large rivers in their own right) are experimenting with small side stream flows in lieu of traditional fish ladders to increase the number of returning fish passage. Down stream migration is more problematic. Presently the fish are driven to confined areas in the reservoir then captured, placed in tanker trucks then transported below the dams. Still not a great solution but it beats going through the generator turbines and experiencing abrupt pressure changes which induce nitrogen bubbles from forming similar to the bends. I am sure there are other design features and techniques yet to be discovered which are more appropriate for tropical fish species. Maintaining at least a minimum flow through the down stream river's course is an extremely important and most easily controlled aspect of the problems to be addressed.

Behind the impoundments, in the resulting reservoirs, there are many other problems which are more intractable to engineering and management fixes.
There will be very drastic shifts in the cross section of fish which will prosper like they never did before and other species that will not be able to adapt.
The body of science pertaining to the effects of damming major tropical rivers is not as extensive as those that are available in the temperate zones such as the Columbia River system in the Pacific Northwestern USA. Salmon and the sea run Rainbow Trout(Steel Head) have been well studied. We have too many damned dams on the Columbia River drainage system and many interested parties. The Native American Tribes in this region are well organized and their treaty rights have been enforced to ensure they are able to continue their fishing traditions by Federal Court Orders where necessary. Since the Columbia River System affects at least 4 states and British Colombia, Canada, there are well established camps of those concerned with the environmental aspects and those which represent the big business concerns which see some very desirable stretches of the rivers which they would love to build even more dams. Many rulings and laws have mitigated some egregious design and management problems there will remain many issues yet to resolved for the next 100 years.

[Mike_Noren]

There are many engineering features which can help mitigate down stream effects of dams and to account for the migrating species of large Characins which would not cost much.

There are possible mitigation efforts yes, but my impressions is that the entire problem has been completely ignored. There is no species list for Xingu and according to the international biodiversity databases the Xingu is extremely species-poor, with just a single endemic species!; the EIA completely ignored aquatic lifeforms; I've seen no environmental organization show public concern for the aquatic species of the Xingu; and every single piece of news I could google were about the displacement of native tribes (important, but to my mind less important than the extinction of double digits of unique vertebrate species).

From my vantage point, 1000 kilometers from the Xingu, it seems there are no mitigation efforts for the fish because politically speaking the issue doesn't exist. It's been completely swept under the rug.

Behind the impoundments, in the resulting reservoirs, there are many other problems which are more intractable to engineering and management fixes.

The first one will be that the water in the dam turns anoxic while it is filled, due to the vast amounts of rotting vegetation. There are eye-witness accounts of how there were literal "heaps" of dead loricariidae, Teleocichla, and other rheophilic species killed by the rotten water when the Tucurui dam was filled. Then when the dam starts producing electricity, the rotten, oxygen-free and hydrogen sulphide-rich, water moves like a "plug" down river, killing sensitive fish for miles downstream.
Breeding cycles of many local fish are disrupted partly because they're no longer able to migrate, but also because there no longer will be any seasonal change in flow.
In the dam itself there will for 5-10 years be a fishery bonanza, due to opportunistic and introduced fish species taking advantage of the enormous amounts of plankton and insect larvae eating all the rotting vegetation.
Then, 25-30 years after the dam was built, it'll typically start silting up and isn't producing much electricity any more; the downstream riverbed is also silting up, resulting in floodings; the fishery in the dam declines sharply; pollution, especially mercury poisoning, becomes a problem around the dam; the bulk of the remaining fishery depends on introduced species; and of the fish species originally found in the area only 20-40% remain (most in tiny refugia, and the commercial ones depend on captive breeding programmes to not go extinct).

At this point, the people who brought you the dam have long since moved on to making new fortunes from new dams in new biodiversity hotspots.

Does anyone know what the projected lifespan of the Xingu dam is? I've been unable to find an estimate.

[apistomaster]

Mike,
You did a pretty good job of describing the typical seqence of events following the completion of a dam.
Most trees of value will be harvested both for they and to minimize to trash which has to be kept out of the generators' penstock so you might have overestimated the anoxic phase. Even that can be mitigated by the rate the impoundment is filled and how well the future basin is scarified.
There is so much I do not know about the scope of site preparation that is part of the contract.
All most of can go on is what and how similar dams were dealt with other than the heroic rescues of monkeys from to tops of submerged trees. If the past is any use as a predictor of how future projects will be handled then the outlook is poor for all life in the drainage.

[Janne]

Rio Xingu is a clear water river and don't carry so much silt so that will be a problem, the forest around Altamira and Belo Monte is heavily logged due to cattle farming but it will contribute with rotting material in the dams.
In all I agree with the rest, the dams will cause enormous damages on the environment and why there are only 1 species listed as endemic is a mystery... I can count much more endemic species than I have fingers and toes and my friends too fingers and toes too. No NGO nor IUCN or any other organisation working to protect all the animals on earth have a clue how many species there are in Rio Xingu and probably nor either in any other river in South America or other continents... except Europe and North America.

At this point, the people who brought you the dam have long since moved on to making new fortunes from new dams in new biodiversity hotspots.

These people are now working with Santo Antonio dam in Rio Madeira, then they move on to next dam Jirau in the same river and then Rio Xingu and than they will build 6 dams in Madre de Dios in Peru and than they will build the dams in Bolivia and than... The whole Amazonas is soon under construction.

Does anyone know what the projected lifespan of the Xingu dam is? I've been unable to find an estimate.

If you find any estimated lifespan for Tucurui you can use that for Belo Monte, both rivers are like twins.

Janne

[Mike_Noren]

Does anyone know what the projected lifespan of the Xingu dam is? I've been unable to find an estimate.

If you find any estimated lifespan for Tucurui you can use that for Belo Monte, both rivers are like twins.

According to the Tucurui Dam case study ( http://www.internationalrivers.org/files/csbrmain.pdf (and a very depressing read it is too)) the estimated lifespan of that project is 50 years.

[celticfish]

Maybe we can get back to the more specific topic of the L46 and the consequence of the dam?

Janne,
Much regret that you were not able to speak during the recent L-Numbers Day.
It would have been very interesting to hear of your project.
Hans Evers did tantalize us with some photos and a brief of what you are doing though.
And three cheers to you for doing something by going to Brazil where the most help can be done!
Maybe I give up my job and go Brazil too... still thinking about it...

From your picture of the dam, I'm incline to believe that the L46 in the dammed up area will not be able to continue thriving.
The dammed up areas always have anerobic bottom areas right behind the dam called "dead zones".
Rendering it un-inhabitable for bottom dwelling fish.
So that leaves only the 3 spots at the cut-off elbow.

If the allow project allows some water to flow through the elbow area enough to classify as a river then there may be hope they continue to exist in this area.
Though I'm sure competition will be very much greater with the river being much smaller than it was.

The worst case being that the area is totally cut-off by the dam project.
This would mean the elbow area turns into a lake (if enough water flows from the single tributory in the map).
In this case I'm incline to believe they may go upstream of the single tributory.
Again the competition will be much greater than before.

In essence this single un-named tributory would be the greatest hope for H. zebras (and all fish in the elbow area) continued existence in the wild.
Do you think the size of this tributory will be able to sustain the "refugees" from the elbow area?

[TwoTankAmin]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is the primary reason that the zebra habitat is so limited is the result of their needs combined with the geography/topography of the river. They live in warm water and also have a need for high oxygen levels in that water. The required oxygen level is created and maintained by the rapids which border their habitat. My understanding is that once you go beyond these "boundry" rapids on either end there are stretches of calmer less well oxygenated water. These waters create a natural lower oxygen boundry which the fish can not survive in and thus which makes it impossible for them to migrate to other suitable areas of the river.

What it boils down to is simple. There are billions to be made from the dams- from building them, to selling the electricity and to using that power to make even more money from mining, agriculture etc. There is no money made from preserving species. If you could magically catch 100% of the zebras in the Xingu and then could sell them to fishkeepers across the globe, the money generated is a pittance compared to the amounts involved in the whole damming project and what results from it. Nothing anybody says or does will change that.

The only real hope for most of the fish species in rivers to be dammed is to get them into tanks across the globe and hope that is enough. Moving them to a similar habitat will not help much in the long run. What makes their habitat suitable for these species to live is also what makes damming that habitat possible and profitable. No matter what river one might be able to put them into will eventually get dammed anyway by the same forces and folks who are promoting and building the current dams.

[Linus_Cello]

Some recent news on the Belo Monte dam (maybe James Cameron keeps L46? lol)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100412/en ... nvironment

[Suckermouth]

His concern appears to be, not surprisingly, for the indigenous people, but obviously the region is important to the people as much as it is to the endemic fishes.