L46 and the Belo Monte dam

[Mike_Noren, posts: 1395]

No mike your ignoring what I was highlighting - it wasnt the fact they were relocating a species in my case a lizard it was the fact that having done so nobody was made accountable for their actions - irespective of how "common" it may be considered.

You're equating a construction company spending time and money translocating a few individuals belonging to the possibly most common and widespread lizard in europe, to Electronorte totally and callously ignoring that their project will cause the complete global extinction of dozens or hundreds of entire species. There is no similarity.

[racoll, posts: 4473]

I think what Mike is getting at, and correct me if i'm wrong, is that if entire species were threatened with extinction in the UK, then the mitigation for that would be commensurate to the rarity or global importance of the species concerned. It would just simply not be allowed to happen.

As an example: if a developer wants to build on the habitat of the sand lizard (Lacerta agilis) in the UK, then there are an entirely different set of rules from that of Z. vivipara, and licences need to be sought from Natural England. They are not at all easy to get in the first place, and one of the conditions are that post-translocation monitoring MUST be carried out. They are therefore highly protected, much more so than Z. vivipara, who's habitat is not protected and it is only illegal to directly kill.

Note that L. agilis is not even that rare on a Europe-wide scale either, but it is very limited in its UK distibution and therefore important locally.

I have to agree with Mike in that the two comparisons are not really equal.

[powerfulpumpkins, posts: 88]

Forgive me Mike and Racoll but I dont work on your principle that its somehow ok because there are plenty more elsewhere. For my cities local biodiversity that particular species is rare as it is found nowhere else (its noted to be declining nationally) - I just wanted to show that even here in the UK development places biodiversity at risk. I dont for a moment suggest that its the same as building a giant dam and destroying all of that Brazilian biodiversity - that itself disgusts me I just wanted to show that even here is a eerr well regulated country wildlife - however rare or common is at risk and if thats the case here what hope is there for wildlife in global wildlife hot spots like Brazil.
I dont know what the answer is to the dam project - well I do - it must be stopped but how !

[racoll, posts: 4473]

Rather depressing update: http://amazonwatch.org/news/2012/0119-brazil-mega-dam-washes-residents-away

[apistomaster, posts: 4569]

It's all over but the flooding.

[powerfulpumpkins, posts: 88]

Shocking totally shocking !

[Taratron, posts: 742]

When people say 'you must move with the times,' what they really mean is 'you must do it my way.'

[plecoboy, posts: 254]

So which species are at immediate risk? Upstream or downstream species?

[MatsP]

So which species are at immediate risk? Upstream or downstream species?

The first problem will probably be silt/sediment from the building project itself. They will also build a temporary dam to allow the machines to work on the base of the river, which will affect flow.

Downstream are more vulnerable than upstream - close upstream are more likely to be affected then further upstream.

--
Mats

[Mike_Noren, posts: 1395]

So which species are at immediate risk? Upstream or downstream species?

With this first dam in the Xingu - there will be several more - all species in the vicinity of the dam (because their habitat will simply cease to exist) plus all species living in the Big Bend/Volta Grande (because the flow during the dry season will be so low the river is effectively reduced to a series of stagnant puddles).

As for an estimate of which species that is... knock yourself out(pdf).
The paper is not exhaustive - the area has not been fully explored and numerous undescribed species are known to occur in the area.
To the best of my knowledge there exist no newer paper on the subject; there is an independent expert review(pdf) from 2009 but they have no list of affected species and appear to conflate local extinction and global extinction.
Also there as far as I know exist no estimate at all for other aquatic organisms (molluscs, crustaceans, insects, mosses...), most of which are even less studied than the fish.

[Mike_Noren, posts: 1395]

Brazil intends to eat its cake and keep it too.

[myjohnson, posts: 39]

Like any other government.

[grokefish, posts: 1531]

Bad news Indeed:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=380984201911642&set=p.380984201911642&type=1&theater

[sidguppy, posts: 3827]

Brazil the rainforest-destroyer hosts Environmental Day

that's like ging the Nobel Peace Prize to a warmongerer who's waging war in 5 countries simultaneously.

oh wait.....

it's going to be one hell of a mental day

it's not going to be good for the environment however

this is giving off the signal: you can kill/destroy/annihilate life on earth as much as you want and we will reward you for it.


I have known for many years that big coorporations, their puppet politicians and their unregulated slah & burn capitalism are THE enemies of life
by now I hope the shoe will drop for the majority of the globe.


but most likely greed, wanton death and stupidity will prevail over ethics and life.

[apistomaster, posts: 4569]

The nation state and all forms of government have been replaced with corporatocracies.
There is one investment company in the USA which has 3.5 Trillion dollars in assets. That is more than any country, including the USA, in the world.
And that is just one company.

[Raiden, posts: 1]

Hey...

I know this topic is kinda old, but this is an issue that I care about quite a bit, and I'm not willing to just sit back and let Belo Monte ruin fish habitat.

A few months ago I pretty much spammed a lengthy post to several animal-keeping forums about this, including a link to the protest form.

The dam is being built, but that doesn't mean it can't still be stopped; there are a myriad of things that are wrong with how it is being built, and they are all things that should, and could, stop it from being completed if it weren't for the ridiculously corrupt government.

I feel like the fishkeeping hobbyists/industry should do something to stop this. Companies like Tetra, API, and others have been around for a while, and have the money and the resources to do something to help stop the dam.

If we like our fish so much, why don't some of us get together and tell the companies and corporations support us to pitch in? It seems like a perfect idea to me; why should we just stand by and watch iconic species like L46 be annhiliated when we could truly show the world how much we care?

This is just an idea; I don't know enough about laws and such to say what an effort like the one above could bring about, but I feel like we're missing an opportunity to step in and deal the final blow to an already shaky project.

[Matt30, posts: 220]

Hey...

I know this topic is kinda old, but this is an issue that I care about quite a bit, and I'm not willing to just sit back and let Belo Monte ruin fish habitat.

A few months ago I pretty much spammed a lengthy post to several animal-keeping forums about this, including a link to the protest form.

The dam is being built, but that doesn't mean it can't still be stopped; there are a myriad of things that are wrong with how it is being built, and they are all things that should, and could, stop it from being completed if it weren't for the ridiculously corrupt government.

I feel like the fishkeeping hobbyists/industry should do something to stop this. Companies like Tetra, API, and others have been around for a while, and have the money and the resources to do something to help stop the dam.

If we like our fish so much, why don't some of us get together and tell the companies and corporations support us to pitch in? It seems like a perfect idea to me; why should we just stand by and watch iconic species like L46 be annhiliated when we could truly show the world how much we care?

This is just an idea; I don't know enough about laws and such to say what an effort like the one above could bring about, but I feel like we're missing an opportunity to step in and deal the final blow to an already shaky project.

Mate, company's like Tetra will not invest no way no how,you will never stop any of this from happening, I admire you passion though.

[Zeno, posts: 102]

I understand your sadness, but as said above, these are things you have to accept. There is too much money involved.

Concerning L46, I don't think we will lose it because it's well spread in captivity worldwide.

At the other hand; we will probably lose some species which will be still unknown to us, at the moment their habitat disappears ...

Zeno

[Mike_Noren, posts: 1395]

I think there's an opportunity to press the Brazilian government this summer. As I posted earlier they're hosting the "United Nations Conference on Sustainable Development", and are probably very sensitive about public and vocal environmental critique. And it's hard to get any less sustainable than Belo Monte, which seems intentionally designed to be as environmentally destructive as humanly possible.

One thing one can do is contact environmental organizations about Belo Monte. Most environmental organizations totally ignore the destruction wrought by dams because of some vague idea that dams are renewable energy and therefore somehow environmentally friendly, and besides International Rivers I don't think a single one cares about any organism living below the surface of the water.

EDIT: I also kind of wonder if the Brazilian opponents of the dam couldn't sue the government for breach of the legally binding Convention on Biological Diversity. I Am Not A Lawyer, but to me it seems that endangering "several hundred" species is hard to reconcile with this legally binding convention which Brazil has signed.

[Janne]

EDIT: I also kind of wonder if the Brazilian opponents of the dam couldn't sue the government for breach of the legally binding Convention on Biological Diversity. I Am Not A Lawyer, but to me it seems that endangering "several hundred" species is hard to reconcile with this legally binding convention which Brazil has signed.

You need to prove that hundreds of species will become endangered and or extinct, with other words it's probably possible to sue the government after the dam is finished if the environmental impact study was properly made... was it?

Janne