Peppermint fry dropping like flies, help please.

[titoman]

Hi,


I have a batch of peppermint catfish fry that I recently got and they're about 1.5cm now, but they've been dropping like flies lately.

No physical signs of any cause... just a very still perfectly formed catfish.

10 died just last night, and each night before that about 2-3 have been dying.

All my water parameters come out okay.. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10 (shows as light orange on API test kit).. ph is 7. I have been testing everyday since the deaths occurred.

Water change once a day (10%).

These fry were born in an egg tumbler as the parents kicked the eggs out, and I've been reading that fry raised in this manner are generally weaker in terms of survival.. would this be a reason? And would they be dying due to the lack of survival on how to eat properly?

I feed them algae discs, and have tried zuchini but they don't seem to touch that (unlike their parents, they love it).

I don't know why they would be dying... any ideas at all?

Thanks!

[MatsP]

Bare bottom tank, by any chance? It is a fairly open secret that baby Loricariidae do better in tanks that have sand or gravel on the bottom of the tank.

Can't see anything wrong besides that guess.

--
Mats

[titoman]

Hi MatsP

Yes it is a barebottom tank!

Why would this be a problem?

I have a bag of black gravel.. about 3-5mm pieces. Would this be suitable?

I also have some gravel that is 2mm that I can take out of another tank if that is preferred.

Thanks for your quick response =]

[MatsP]

The theory, and I don't think anyone has PROVEN this yet, is that the glass on the bottom of the tank [which is where the fry lives] will accumulate a biofilm of bacteria and other micro-organisms. This biofilm contains toxins, and possibly illness causing bacteria (pathogens).

With a layer of sand or gravel, the biofilm will be thinner and the toxins sinks into the sand.

Several members have reported significantly lower loss-rate on introduction of a substrate in the tank.

The other suggestion would be to wipe the bottom of the tank twice a day, but it's far easier to add some substrate.

I don't think it matters much if it's fine or slightly coarser substrate - as long as it's not so big that lumps of food and other stuff gets down deep into the substrate. So 2mm or 3-4mm gravel should be fine. Of course, make sure you clean it THOROUGHLY before you add it to the tank.

--
Mats

[titoman]

Ahh I see,

Thanks for explaining =]

If I use the 5mm gravel, and only have a thin layer of it.. will this be better?

I can use the 2mm, but that just means I'll be disturbing my other tank.


Your theory also kind of fits into my observations... I've noticed the ones that stay inside my driftwood seem to be doing well, whereas the others are dead on the barebottom glass... But that could also be because they're alive enough to be swimming into the driftwood for hiding!

[racoll]

What are "peppermint" catfish?

A scientific name will really help us deal with your problem.

A photo of the parents would help us get an ID.

I believe

Ancistrus dolichopterus

is traded as "peppermint", but so is

Ancistrus sp(l071)

(plus just about any other dark loricariid with white spots).

They require quite different water conditions, so an accurate name will assist us in helping.

[titoman]

Hi racoll,

Not too sure on the scientific ID.
It is whatever is being traded in Australia.

Also, I know that as babies, they have the white tip, but they lose it as adults.

I don't have a camera on hand at the moment (actually just purchased one and waiting for it to arrive next week).

At a guess I'd say l071.

[MatsP]

"Peppermint pleco" is the common name for a captive bred fish in Australia - we've long been trying to figure out what it really is, with poor results. As they haven't been imported (legally) for several years, the source is obscured in history. Suspicion of hybrid of "common + dolichopterus" has been raised, but nowhere near confirmed.

L071

has also been suggested.

Someone may be able to send a fin clipping to you, Racoll, if that helps...

--
Mats

[krazyGeoff]

Hi Titoman,
I always have substrate in my fry tanks after experiencing situations similar to yours. Losses reduced by 90%

Racoll these are australian pepermints. I think we call them starlights in NZ (not my picture, just borrowed it for visual comparison)

Cheers

[Shaun]

Ancistrus sp L071 is a very good match for the "Peppermint Bristlenose" here, fin rays, losing the white edge to the fins as they age etc all match the characteristics outlined by Ingo Seidel in the article on White Seam Bristlenoses...the collection locality of the original specimens will never be known due to their status as an (originally) illegally smuggled-in fish.

[Bwhiskered]

I have found that many of the peppermint type plecos fry feed mainly on live baby brine shrimp as a first food. I hatch my L-184's in a tumbler and move them to a 5 or 10 gallon aquarium when they look ready to feed. It is bare bottom and has a mini filter with a sponge on the inlet. I have found that I only have a problem with biofilm on a bare bottom with regular bushynose plecos being feeding veggies.

I feel that many of the fry that people think are feeding on algae are actually looking for micro organisims in it.

[MatsP]

I feel that many of the fry that people think are feeding on algae are actually looking for micro organisims in it.

Most forms of algae wafers actually contain quite a bit of protein - 30-40% is quite common. So as long as the fry eat the stuff, it's not the same as feeding vegetables (that contain maybe 2-3% protein).

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I think a lot of "plecos" which seem to be algae eaters are actually eating algae for the other organisms living in it.
The young of most species of plecos seem to eat more foods with higher amounts of protein than they do when they are older. This makes some sense to me because the faster the fry grow in the wild the sooner they will become large enough to become less attractive as prey for other fish,
I also believe young tank raised plecos are best raised in tanks with at least a thin layer of substrate rather than in bare bottom tanks. I am not so sure it is so much of a problem that bare glass accumulates a layer of bacteria because I think most of the the life is actually diatoms rather than bacteria, Even a thin layer of substrate offers many times the available surface area for foraging than smooth, bare glass.
In the case of Ancistrus which seem to eat more of the biofilm, be it algae or diatoms, I find Spirulina Sticks by far preferable to algae wafers. The sticks quickly break up into very small pieces which become widely distributed and therefore provide the fry with bite sized bits of food where ever they forage. I find small plecos show little interest in algae wafers when compared to Spirulina sticks. Spirulina Sticks do have a fairly high percentage of protein but I haven't found that to be a problem.
When the fish are half or more full grown their protein requirements seem to diminish. So I don't think the protein content is the problem.
My experience breeding Ancistrus is limited to the aquarium strains of the common A. cf. cirrhosus so I can't speak from experience about the best foods for any of the black water species. In such a biotope algae does not usually thrive as well as it does in water which is more mineral rich. That is one reason why I do not think a vegetarian diet is as important for the black water species. However, in black water environments, terrestrial fruits and leaves play a more important role in the diet of many fish which have specialized in living in low pH, extremely soft waters. The addition of Cattapa leaves may be advantageous as a low protein source of forage to help lessen the dependence of pleco fry on higher protein foods.
I know that the black water specialist Symphysodon discus Heckel eats more terrestrial fruits, leaves and detritus than any other Symphysodon species and unlike any other species of Discus, Heckel Discus love Spirulina Sticks.
There have been extensive field studies of stomach contents of the various Discus and Heckels eat more "crud" than any of the others. Black water species do not have as much choice of foods as those species found in less extreme environments. I am going out on a limb when I extrapolate what I know about Discus and apply it to Ancistrus spp found in similar waters.
Another aspect that is very different regarding the Peppermint Ancistrus bred so much in Australia is that they have been bred in captivity long enough for the aquarium strains to adapt to many of the conventional fish foods so they are now probably less specialized feeders than their wild Ancestors. I think using a substrate and keeping the water quality high are probably now the most important factors in how well the fry do. Only the fry which were able to adapt to aquarium conditions well have been used as breeding stock for quite some time.

[racoll]

They certainly look similar to

L071

Someone may be able to send a fin clipping to you, Racoll, if that helps...

I could only tell you if they are hybrids with common bristlenose, and only if the bristlenose was the mother.

[titoman]

Update:

Well most have died now... such a shame.
At least now I will know for the next batch.

Is there a good link that I can read with good hints so I don't have this happen again?

Thanks!

[MatsP]

Search the site for "fry dying" and you'll probably find several threads of similar content to yours, with the same suggestions. I'm sure Janne wrote about it in one of his breeding articles - problem is that he's written about breeding about a dozen different plecos, so you'll have to scan through a few different articles to find the right one - check the Peckoltia breeding articles first, as I think it may have been one of them.

--
Mats

[stuart264]

From raising about 150 bristlenose fry I would try the following

1. Try feeding slices of courgette (no need to blanch) both on the side of the tank and weighted on the bottom
2. Watch your ammonia levels like a hawk, as with fry having two interests in life (eat and sh*t) the ammonia can get very high in a few hours. For a quick fix, use Seachem Prime at the 5x emergency dose levels and drop your PH to around 6.8.
3. Jack up the temperature to 28C and increase the oxygenation.

Stuart.

[apistomaster]

I have had excellent results feeding pleco fry of common Ancistrus Spirulian Sticks and earth work sticks. I do not use any salad vegetables. I use mostly earth worm sticks for the more carnivorous species and more Spirulina sticks for the mostly vegetarian species. Plecos are all omnivores but some lean more towards the herbivorous foods while others prefer more animal protein.
Whatever your breeders are eating should work just as well for your fry.
Mass die off of fry points more towards poor water quality than it does to being a food problem. You really do need to prevent ammonia/nitrite spikes and careful feeding and adequate water changes of water of the same used in the breeding tank is best. You may have to change half your water every day or every other day if your fry are crowded.
The filters must be fully "cycled" and it never hurts to provide additional aeration with an air stone. Be sure the fry are being kept at the same temperatures as used in their breeding tank.

[titoman]

Thanks heaps for the tips.
Will take it all into account for my next batch =]

Got a new question though..

In the past my tap water hasn't been the most reliable, I've noticed swings in my pH from time to time such as 6.0, 6.4, 7.0.

So what I did was put some coral rubble in and it raised my tank pH to about 7.4 and stable.

Is 7.4 okay for breeding? or will I be better off removing the coral rubble?

[MatsP]

Most captive bred bristlenoses aren't particularly sensitive to pH values, and as long as your pH doesn't swing too much either way during water changes, even a bit of variation in your tap-water won't do that much of a difference.

But yes, coral sand or similar will allow the pH to be more stable. And I'm sure the bristlenoses won't mind the harder water anyways.

--
Mats

[titoman]

Thanks MatsP (always so quick to reply!)

So I guess it doesn't hurt either way I have it... so maybe I'll just have a little bit of coral to please both sides =P

It's just I keep reading a lower range pH is preferred when spawning.
But at the same time, I know my pH has been unreliable to me in the past, and I'd rather it not swing on me.

[apistomaster]

The range your pH is on the best side of 7.0 for raising peppermints. They are not as domesticated as commons A. cf cirrhosus and 6.4 is not really what I consider to be a low pH.
Your KH must be fairly low and many would love to have your "problem".
Unless it is the mains water which is fluctuating that could be annoying but not really a problem with the pH range you have reported and if your water's pH tends to drop over time then that is probably due to a low KH which is actually generally desirable for most SA fish. Increasing the volume and frequency of your routine water changes will help keep the pH more stable.
If you had reported a tendency for the pH to "crash" and drop into the 5.0 to 5.8 range or even lower, only then would I consider using a small amount of oyster shell grit to buffer the pH by raising the KH. But those conditions are great for many fish which are considered difficult to spawn.

Many of us invest a lot of money in RO water systems so we can make water similar to your water, I would consider yourself fortunate. You should consider breeding Discus with your water and make your hobby pay. You should have good success with Rams and Apistogramma with your water which are always in demand.
I strive for conditions like yours to raise Hypancistrus and Peckoltia L134.

[krazyGeoff]

More information, good.
pH issues.
So whilst I'm not in the same country, we are in the same hemisphere.
I can also relate fry deaths to the pH shifts.
Without trying to make Larry cry with envy
My tap water has undetectable KH. As my tanks have aged the pH dropping has become an issue.
After a water change the pH is about 6.8 After 4 days it will be as low as 4.7
These swings are fatal to fry. Whether it is the low level it gets to or the amount of the shift that is the issue I am not sure?
In essence the natural buffering capacity of the substrate has reduced to nothing.
I have tried coral, and oyster shell but have found that the frequency of water changes negates the effect of the buffering capacity of these mineral compounds.
My new formula is to mix 60 grams of baking soda into 500ml of water. Then I add 25ml of this solution to every 50 litres of aquarium water. This gives me a pH of 6.8 and a KH of 1 (dKH I think is the scale I am using). Then I add 10ml of the solution per 50 litres of aquarium water per day (or as required) as a "top up" because the KH is used by the fish being in the aquarium.
This system is working really well on the fry at the moment, and also I am experementing with using similar quantities as part of the pre conditioning process for my other plecs.
I am also experimenting with substrate replacement as an alternative to daily top ups.

Cheers

Geoff

[titoman]

Thanks for all the extra info have taken it all into account =]

The thing is when I say pH of 6.0, I am unsure whether it is very much lower than that, I only own a standard API Test Kit and it only tells me the pH range from 6 to 8 point something.

Sometimes I won't waterchange for a week, and when I check the parameters I am surprised with a 6.0 (or possible lower) pH.
But that was only a once off which urged me to consider coral rubble.

I may have to experiment without coral rubble and see whether this happens again, and if it does I may try introducing small amounts of coral rubble just to keep it from going below 6 (as at this point I will have no idea what's going on).

[apistomaster]

There are now some rather affordable electronic pH meters on yje market and they do not suffer from the limitations of most common colormetric test kits which are almost useless when working within the lowest end of pH used in aquariums.
One caveat about electronic pH meters is to be sure the electrodes are always stored in soft acid water. I use tape around the seam of the reservoir/caps for long term storage. I often use either my RO water or the low end calibration fluid as my storage water.The electrodes are about 80% of the cost of a pH meter.

Yeah, I am jealous of anyone who has extremely soft and slightly acid available out of the tap, I hate waiting for my RO filter to fill my 110 gal reservoir and as a wild Discus keeper I would make more frequent water changes, I keep wild S. haraldi because they are not as demanding of soft acid water as Green and Heckel Discus,
It is useless to rely on oyster shell or aragonite to raise the KH if you have extremely soft water. You do need fast acting chemicals or the more expensive brand name mineral supplements to keep the chemistry stable when you have to make large and frequent water changes.

[MorganH]

Hi mate, how are you? Can I ask all this time later, did you sort this problem out?? I only ask because if you are, who I think you are, I actually bought 19 of that or the next or previous even, batch , again if it is you bro, you were definately having this problem, out of the 19 I took home only 11 made it to 2-3cm (about an inch) and now all this time later, upto 8.5cm. When they were average 2.5cm I actualy noticed a tuft of white growth on the body of one of the fry, I hadn't noticed anything like that before so started researching fungal and bacterial types of problems and came to the possible conclusion that whatever was the problem it was more then likely a fungal infection that was primarily inside of the fish, so I treated them for this..fungi, but also I treated them with antibacterial meds at the same time and then later after a week or so I then treated them for worms using praziquantel with lavamisol meds and I actually quarantined the one fry I had found with the white tuft in a smaller tank, it survived as did the others but was stunted in growth compared to the rest, I reckon because it actually sat about for more then a week looking any minute now it would croak, then finaly it came good too. In fact after the water change I did to clean the first two lot of meds out of the main tank and before worming them, the fish almost immediately coloured up nicer and started to act like what I consider normal. I only did the worming as an extra precaution and I figured I had already stressed them and given them a break so why not, my opinion only and its just a guess is either something called columnaris or similar named bacterial thing I think and or if thats not the right one some kind of fungus that attacks internaly and both or either are carried by the fish that are "cured" of it and sometimes not having the best conditions with your water etc can lead to outbreaks.blah blah. or something like that lol, I really think if you have dramas at all still or anyone you sell fish to do then maybe this info will help, and of course I am not saying this meaning any nastiness at all, I just genuinely think I might know you and am not 100% sure of anything but I did manage to save 100% of the fry left after medicating them.??? I am not even sure your the bro I got the fish from and I am not casteing stones just trying to help, so please..peace mainge.


BTW according to a fishy type character I know lol who states quite believably that 2 types of Starlight, or Black, or White Seam, were brought in illegally to Australia the first shipment into Sydney was l183 a 10cm fish, the second was I think l071 or similar number and is a 20cm+ fish and they were imported into Melbourne. It is these two shipments that made all the Pepps in Australia, according to this fishy bloke anyways LOL. I reckon yours fall toward the L183 scale of the genetic mix because although they lose the seam and have the wrong amount of rays in the dorsal they lack the size , the above mentioned article even states a why that would be, but I think its more to do with throwback one way or the other and as your fish are the 12-14cm etc and not 20cm or larger I think I am right in my calculated guess.
Again the above mentioned article about WHITE SEAM ancistrus on this site/shanesworld talk alot about the hows and why these type fish are what they and is well worth the read, although lol dumb me, a few years back I decided to sell off my Peppermints because lol I dont know what they are L number wise, only to buy some more from you...cheers mate and honestly big rave as you know I am good for but I hope this helps.

[apistomaster]

FWIW, it has been my experience that it is a bad idea to buy or sell any expensive pleco species juveniles less than 4 cm in TL because the smaller fish are very susceptible to the stresses involved in acclimating to new environments, changed diets and shipping stresses, when applicable. Bigger is always better. I have had problems with stunting and excessive mortality with every batch of fish I have bought which were only about 2.5 cm TL, regardless of species with the exception of the very hardy and adaptable common Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus varieties.

There is a price for being impatient whether as a buyer or a seller in not growing the juveniles to a larger size before distributing them.
Many species are rather slow growing like H. zebra and others but if most specimens experience stunted growth and/or high mortality rates, then this completely nullifies any "bargains" that cheaper smaller fish may seem to offer. It is just my opinion and my practice not to distribute very small juvenile plecos. I may keep some species twice as long before distributing any and my prices may be higher, but my customer satisfaction is very good. I do not like to deal with any avoidable disappointed customers nor waste the lives of any rare fish.

It sounds like there may be some complicating factors at work if it is true that the Peppermint plecos raised in Australia are the products of hybridization. Only those who have direct experience with these fish can say what is normal growth, mortality and survival rates.
I can only speak to the issues common among distributing very small specimens of juvenile plecos in general.

[titoman]

Hi MorganH,

Sorry that wasn't me.
I'm in Victoria =P

But I appreciate the info you've provided, so cheers!

[zeby1]

Hi Tito

I am in the same boat as you are now !!!

I have lost 100,ssss of the little buggers anyone that can help it would be a big help

My parrameters are

PH 6.6
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 0-20ppm
I do water changes evey 2-4 days
feed premium Algae waffers and zucchini every now and then shrimp pellets .. adults are healthy and have no issues .. laying eggs every 6-8 weeks and fry get to about the 8-9 th day and then drop.. all dead withing 24-36h every time the same .

I have tried gravel and also bare tanks
I have also taken log out with dad and with wrigglers hatched 3-4 days and put into a cycled tank with clean water bare tank and sponge filter temp is 25-27 .. they get to the 9-10th day max and Gonskiiiii
ooo i have in the system also breeding and growing L/F Albino s/f albino L/F Normal S/F normals + the same in calico bushy nose all breeding and growing well????
This is Now driving mee Batttyyyyyyyyyyy HELP EXPERTS PLEASE!!!