L-173b from Glaser

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Jools »

Chris,

I think you need to take into consideration that this is an international forum and that English is not many contributors first language. So instead of trying to win arguments, we should all chill out a bit and try to get to the bottom of each others meaning.

There is no personal attack going on here, people are trying, with the best endeavours to respond to your request for feedback. I would not blame them for avoiding any further responses but it is good that we're all trying to clear this up.

Does anyone actually know what the history of "L173b" (as opposed to L173 - which clearly Glasers think is different otherwise why the "b") is? I do not.

From your photograph, don't you think the eyes are unusually big in relation to the size of the fish? I think this is Yann's point and I agree the fish doesn't look right. I don't think that's a slight on your (clearly dedicated and skilled) abilities as a fishkeeper, it could be a problem with the breeder of the fish for example. So, one can't say it's your, your supplier or Glasers "fault". Where I have seen such problems it is my experience (limited, I've only bred three species of Hypancistrus), that they happen in the first few days of life.

So, if we could all just bear in mind that we're trying to help each other, and that we are expressing opinions, then we can get back on track. I really don't want to have to lock a thread with so many well meaning contributors.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Does anyone actually know what the history of "L173b" (as opposed to L173 - which clearly Glasers think is different otherwise why the "b") is? I do not.
Jools this is what Glaser says on its 173b page:
19.Feb.2008) After a long break back in our stock: German offspring of L 173.
I assume that the b designation therefore refers to 173 offspring which were bred in Germany. Another way I would guess it could have been described is as "German bred F1"? This is what I assumed the b designation meant. I suppose we could contact Glaser and ask.

I also notice that there are several other L-numbers which have a letter added on by Glaser but when I look into the PC L number resource here, there is no corresponding fish listed. Here is a list:
Cochliodon spec. var. marbled L 360a
Hypancistrus spec. L 173b
Hypancistrus spec. L 236x
Panaque spec. „Papa Ojo Chico“ L 90a
L 200 und L 200a

Only the last fish, L200, the 200 and the 200a might be used to indicate Baryancistrus demantoides vs Hemiancistrus subviridis. I have no idea what those other letters might mean.

Please don't close this thread as I have said all I want to on this subject and I would hate to see others who might wish to add comments not being able to do so.

One last note, to those who have asked what I paid for the fish, without meaning to be rude, it isn't anybody's business what I pay for my fish. What I will say is that in America we should expect to pay more for any Glaser fish than folks who buy them wholesale directly from Glaser in Germany or from one of their local wholesale customer's retail outlets. The American who imports their fish has to pay in advance, has to bear the risks of losing fish either because they suffered from transport handling, delays or stress. They are entitled to make a profit for their risk and capital outlay. In addition, there are currency issues- the exchange rates fluctuate. So it really isn't fair to compare the costs of fish in Europe or Asia vs the USA.

When the dollar is strong against the Euro or Deutschmark, then the cost to American buyers will be lower and vice versa. I have lost out on a few fish over the years because the Japanese buyers could pay much more due to favorable exchange rates and all the fish got sent there.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by matthewfaulkner »

TwoTankAmin wrote:
I also notice that there are several other L-numbers which have a letter added on by Glaser but when I look into the PC L number resource here, there is no corresponding fish listed. Here is a list:
Cochliodon spec. var. marbled L 360a
Hypancistrus spec. L 173b
Hypancistrus spec. L 236x
Panaque spec. „Papa Ojo Chico“ L 90a
L 200 und L 200a

Only the last fish, L200, the 200 and the 200a might be used to indicate Baryancistrus demantoides vs Hemiancistrus subviridis. I have no idea what those other letters might mean.
I can only speak for L090a and L360a, but these are simply used to differentiate unusually marked specimens that resemble an accepted L number but don't have their own designation yet. I've seen various letters added to L090, from A to E, all just different ways to say . And L360a is known as in the Cat-eLog.

Off topic, but another L number that gets heavily added to is L027 or Panaque cf. armbrusteri. Again, I've seen L027 A - D, each denoting a river variant because no other L number exists.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Jools »

TwoTankAmin wrote:Jools this is what Glaser says on its 173b page:
19.Feb.2008) After a long break back in our stock: German offspring of L 173.
I assume that the b designation therefore refers to 173 offspring which were bred in Germany. Another way I would guess it could have been described is as "German bred F1"? This is what I assumed the b designation meant. I suppose we could contact Glaser and ask.

I also notice that there are several other L-numbers which have a letter added on by Glaser but when I look into the PC L number resource here, there is no corresponding fish listed.
This isn't an exact science but that's because they're widely accepted trade names. L010a is the classic example. They are not l-numbers in the sense that they were introduced via DATZ. The extra letters are something of an Aqualog add on and, in the main, add rather than remove, confusion.

Anyway, I would not assume the b means F1 and I also would be very cautious about them. I mean, if their parents are L173, why not sell them as L173?

For me the L173b is a way of saying like L173 without saying they are or are not, but still make them commercially attractive.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by ceh »

I asked for the price of fish because I wanted to know the price of fish in the USA and nothing else
I did not thought it was so private, I'm sorry,
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by HaakonH »

The 'b' simply means it's German bred.

I know Glaser has customers in the Asian market, and judging by the pricetag on nice specimens of these Hypancistrus there I wouldn't be surprised if the individuals with the most striking pattern are shipped in that direction for higher price. L173 is variable, there will be many specimens in a stock that don't look as appealing as most buyers expect and want. So, Glaser can't avoid a certain amount of baffled and disappointed customers.

On the other hand, Glaser is making a great job keeping it a secret who breeds the fish for them. Everyone would love to see the parentfish used to breed, but this information is just not available. If you buy L173 from Glaser you expect to get what you want, but that doesn't necessarily turn out to be the case...

The depicted fish has too large eyes. The fault is likely to lie with the breeder. Glaser should know better than to ship out such specimens, but they don't. They sent me a flatnosed L173 once, I got a refund after I complained.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by ceh »

HaakonH wrote:


On the other hand, Glaser is making a great job keeping it a secret who breeds the fish for them. Everyone would love to see the parentfish used to breed, but this information is just not available.
http://www.l173.de/impressum.html ........
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Yann »

Hi!!

Well I can explain a few things there:

the fish named L-236-x means it is a bred fish, you will see after the species name...g.br, which mean german bred

L90a
L200a
L81n
etc... are denomination they used in the aqualog but never actually represented a real L-number, they often got none or had it afterwards...if they had none, it was mainly because it has been used in the hobby for a long time

On the other hand, if you look correctly over the internet or in books and magazine, at no moment a L173b has been mentioned
If indeed they are what they pretend to be, why using a different code system than the rest of the fish. This make no sense.
What I understand...possibly an adult is L173, but the young they produce do not look like the adult (which basically take down the whole possibility this fish represent a "real" species by itself and would only show it is either a natural hybrid or an aberrant coloration of another "species"
Last possibility, one of the parent is indeed L173, the other is not...

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by HaakonH »

Ceh,

I was under the impression that Will is not the breeder for Glaser? I'm pretty sure I read a statement from them about the issue somewhere...actually I think it was posted on their website, but I can't find it there now. Anyway, Glaser's L173s don't look anything like the ones presented on the L173 website.

Yann,

You're right :) the x is commonly used after the nubercode to show it's an aquarium bred fish. In fact, the 'b' is only used very rarely. I'm going to ask them what it's meant to symbolize.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Yann »

Hi!¨

Regarding Will, I am sure they are not their breeder as well.

a good friend of mine is a breeder for them...but not for the L173 for sure

Yes both look different
it is very possible the fish is indeed a natural hybrid or an aberrant pattern fish...which suprise me it is a high variability of pattern within a small group of tank raise fish...although variability is known within the genus Hypancistrus, such high variability within a "species" is suspicious

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by HaakonH »

I'm very tempted to believe that L173 is a naturally occuring exception within the striped Hypancistrus of Xingu. I believe that sometimes closely related forms interact and crossbreed in the river. I think this is why bigger numbers/colonies of L173 has not been found, just one-offs (at least to my knowledge).

I also believe that L173 can differ in genetics. I suppose two very similar looking L173 can actually contain genes from different strains of striped Hypancistrus, say for example H.zebra x L066 or H.zebra x L399 and so on. If these are bred further in captivity, the variation will reveal itself through extremely variable appearances. If a breeder decides to purebreed a strain into a direction with say more white, the way to do it would be to select parent fish with the most desireable pattern and repeat it for a few generations. I believe this is what happens in Germany and Asia.

As a result, some strains of L173 will be very striking (and perhaps even include that extra bit of H.zebra in the mix to make them even more so), whereas other strains will be less striking due to stronger genes from less striking ancestors. That's my theory anyway, same goes for L236 ;)

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Ab this just circles back to my earlier post in this thread where I said there really is no scientifically sound answer on species ID for a lot of the B&W hypans from the Xingu.

While I know from my own experience that zebras seem to breed pretty true when one starts with typical stock, this point becomes moot with some of the more unusual fish such as 98, 173, 236 and 250. I have never ever seen a post in which there is a picture of a zebra get responses questioning what it is. Similarly, I have never seen a post anywhere picturing 173/236/250 in which there was no disagreement as to what the fish is. While I would like to see more consistency in the fish as well as there being caught in larger numbers in given locations, I also do not believe either of these things is a prerequisite for determining if they are distinct pure species or not.

In the end it is only the science of genetics which might answer these questions. But due to the time and money needed for such a project, I doubt it will ever be undertaken. Now that Brazil is getting ready to destroy the Xingu ecosystem and wipe out many of these fish in the wild, I fear that it will put the final nail into the ID coffin.

What I can say is I will continue to raise up the fish I pictured in this thread and hopefully have them spawn. From my underside photos it is clear I have fish of both sexes and male fish7 has been caving for several months. I had to break apart his cave to get him out for pics.

You can expect me to post pictures of them again down the line after they grow out more and especially if they spawn and produce fry.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by monkiecat »

just like to say h will does not supply to glasers and these 173s are deffently not from him as i have 6 iv bought from him 6 months ago.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Janne »

TwoTankAmin wrote:In the end it is only the science of genetics which might answer these questions. But due to the time and money needed for such a project, I doubt it will ever be undertaken. Now that Brazil is getting ready to destroy the Xingu ecosystem and wipe out many of these fish in the wild, I fear that it will put the final nail into the ID coffin.
There are already a genetic project in Brazil for Hypancistrus in Xingu, but they will have a problem of the fact that all "species" are so close related that it will be impossible to only use genetic to divide a specie... but it will help a little.
For the moment the Belo Monte project is halted once again, we all try to buy time and if not able to stop the project it will be delayed, each time the project are stopped the more time the science will have to finish their work. Then it's another question if the work is good enough in the end...

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by racoll »

Janne wrote:but they will have a problem of the fact that all "species" are so close related that it will be impossible to only use genetic to divide a species
Hi Janne. Is this your opinion, or have some results started to emerge?

I'm not sure I entirely agree with your assessment though. If some of these forms really do have evolutionary independence, then there WILL be a genetic signal. It's just a question of how/if you are able to read it. Mitochondrial DNA data might be too coarse an approach, and one may need to carry out a genome wide SNP scan to tease out the pattern.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Janne »

racoll wrote:It's just a question of how/if you are able to read it. Mitochondrial DNA data might be too coarse an approach, and one may need to carry out a genome wide SNP scan to tease out the pattern.
My opinion, this is Brazil and they need help but maybe don't want to ask for it.
There are some good researchers and there are many not so good, not sure what the result will be in the end though.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by pleco22 »

Hi,

today I visited Aquarium Glaser, and asked them about the "b" in L 173b. So here comes the official version:

They sell typical marked german tank raised L 173 with this L-Number. Only a few per year.
L 173 with an untypical marking, but from the same parents, are offered as L 173b with a lower pricetag. So if you buy L 173b it is possible, that you could get strange looking fish. If L 173 is a kind of a transition form, and this is my opinion, you could get fish looking more like L 399 or L 400 or even L 287. But that means also, that some of the offspring of L 173b will look like real L 173.

L 173b
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Unungy »

Great info.
Now we know where those L173b come from.
I guess Chris will have to assess which of those in his group are L173B or L173.
I've no doubts that some fish from his Glaser group definitely resemble the L173 family, however there is one, maybe two that can clearly be questioned.

For example those in the above picture, don't look nothing like L173 to me.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Marc van Arc »

Great info indeed, for now everybody should know what to do: think twice before buying, for you may end up with an unwanted surprise.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Bellenz »

I believe this is L173b, because I got the same kind of fish from Glaser using the label L173b. Up till now, Aquarium Glaser still sell this fish using the same label.








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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Unungy »

any pictures?

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Bellenz »

Please look at the pictures in my web. Go to galleries at www.bellenz.com.







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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Champ-BKK »

Bellenz wrote:Please look at the pictures in my web. Go to galleries at http://www.bellenz.com.

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I do not mean to reanimate a dead thread. But I promised to post if these fish ever spawned for me. This evening I spotted a fry in the tank. It had not quite lost all of its yolk sac. The dad was doing some fanning and would not let me see the back of the cave, so I assume he is hiding a few more fry. The lone one was in and out of the cave, the last time blown out by dads fanning.

I know I have serveral females and have 3 fish caved including the dad, so I am hoping this is the start of having several spawns. Optimistically looking ahead, I will be very curious to see how the fry turn out.

I was not able to get pictures when I moved the fish from a 20 gal. long to their current 33 gal. long.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Barbie »

Congratulations! Those resurrections are always welcome!

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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I have to do it again. The first spawn resulted in confirmed free swimmers. I spotted them during maint for the next two weeks and then have not seen a trace of them since. Fast forward.

Last mid Oct. I tripped and broke a hip and have been recovering since. A couple of very nice ladies I know were kind enough to do my tank work at 2 week intervals. On their last visit they spotted the same male on eggs. Despite my neglect of tanks by cutting down the frequency of things, I have been able to do it at a reduced pace. Last weekend as I was cleaning the tank, a dead fry flushed out. During the rest of cleaning I spotted 4 live free swimmers which I pulled to a trap which circulates tank water. So far so good. I did not want to chance losing them since it looks like I lost the first spawn. The spawns seem to be quite small I don't think there could have been more than 7 eggs in either spawn. I consider this a good sign in terms of what the fish are since my experience is Hypans which give the smaller spawn sizes seem to be the more desirable ones in terms of availability and cost.

I am still inclined to believe the variability in appearance belief for 173 and also the 173b designation being created by Glasser to apply to their 173 offspring which are variable enough to make them less than ideal looking specimens. I never felt it was more than their "private" designation. The only way for me to confirm it all is to do what Glaser represents should happen when they say some of the fry from should come out much closer to the ideal look we all want for this fish. That is to produce some fry that actually do. My bet is it will take a whole bunch more fry than 4 for that.

There is no point in pictures as they would be meaningless in terms of species info. If I can keep them alive and grow them out, when they begin to look more interesting, I will get pics for the thread.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by exasperatus2002 »

Great job. Keep us posted.

p.s we all love baby pics.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Raul-7 »

Whatever happened? Did you get any fry resembling the "typical" L173?

I mean L236 can often times look drab, but then you get a few specimens that resemble the famous picture of Ingo Seidel.
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Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I have 3 fry which at last spotting were over an inch TL at least. This past year has been a challenge and many fish were lost, including fry due to an inability to do the needed regular maint. on tanks. I only see these fry from on my back under the tank looking up through the bottom glass.
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My cats species list: 2 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 10
Location 1: USA - CA
Location 2: Sunland, CA 91040
Interests: Collecting rare fish.
Contact:

Re: L-173b from Glaser

Post by Unungy »

TwoTankAmin wrote:I have 3 fry which at last spotting were over and inch TL at least. This past year has been a challenge and many fish were lost, including fry due to an inability to do the needed regular maint. on tanks. I only see these fry from on my back under the tank looking up through the bottom glass.

Sorry to hear that Chris. I hope things get well soon.
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