My L134 Breeding efforts

[apistomaster]

I began using RO water reconstituted to still be very soft during my first couple years but then I found they bred fine in my tap water so I quit using anything else. My tap water isn't all that hard. The TDS is 140 ppm and pH is 7.4. At first I used water with a TDS between 40 and 60 ppm and a pH between 6.0 and 6.6
I have raised a couple thousand L134's over the past six years so there are few mysteries about them to me with the exception of their seasonal breeding pattern.
I began breeding my own F1's and selling some F2's and F1's in the last three years. Even my tank raised fish have kept to that seasonal pattern.

[2wheelsx2]

Just a data point. Our tap water comes out at <20 ppm TDS. The 5 I got from you have not bred yet, but appear to be old/large enough this year, so we'll see what happens. My adult breeding group of WC ones don't breed as prolific as Dave's either as mine stopped in November and have not started this year, but I did lose the biggest female due to excessive aggression last year, so maybe that stopped them. We'll have to see as this will be the first full year I've had this group.

[apistomaster]

Hi 2wheels,
The specimens you guys bought from me are now about the age my F1 L134 do usually begin to spawn.
During their first spawning season they usually produce fewer fry than larger, older wild fish but get more prolific as they grow older.
The minimum age of any I have bred was about 24 month old females which spawned with approximately 7 or 8 year old wild males. The all tank raised breeders began producing well at about three years of age.

Despite my larger numbers bred over the years I do think they are easier to breed in softer water than my tap water but since I still produced so many using only my tap water I haven't had much incentive to try to manage them in softer water.
It isn't difficult for me to make some large RO replacement water changes so I will give this a try to see if it doesn't help with making my 3 plus year old F1's become more productive. Your water seems to be ideal for breeding them.
I rarely sold young of the year because selling larger size TR plecos is a point of pride for me.
I have only tank raised F1 breeders now having put out my old wiid fish to pasture. If I get plenty of fry this year it won't pay off immediately since I raise the fish I sell for one year so they are about 2-1/2 to 2-3/4 inches. It will take me about two years to restore my productivity to my former levels of larger sizes.

You guys have done very well with breeding your L134's. I doubt if I will get as many British Columbia customers in the future as I have in the past now that you guys are raising significant numbers up there.

[Forester]

All my experience indicates that P. compta are seasonal breeders but I do think that when a pair spawns it releases pheromones in the tank water which can help the others in the tank to breed.

Would having breeding pairs of bristlenose in with the L-134s and other L-numbers stimulate them to breed? Or would they just fight?

Thanks,

Lucas

[pleconut]

I have heard pheromones released into the water, from other breeding plecos eg BNs can have this effect, its not necessary to have them in the same tank though, it may interfere with breeding of the groups. Species tanks are better for most plecos, and providing parameters are safe and the same, no disease present, I'm just covering the obvious here. A water change using water from the breeding plecos tank will work, that being the theory actually works in the practice.

[Forester]

I have heard pheromones released into the water, from other breeding plecos eg BNs can have this effect, its not necessary to have them in the same tank though, it may interfere with breeding of the groups. Species tanks are better for most plecos, and providing parameters are safe and the same, no disease present, I'm just covering the obvious here. A water change using water from the breeding plecos tank will work, that being the theory actually works in the practice.

Thanks. Just one last question: apistomaster noted earlier that for most plecos breeding them in groups is preferable. Does this also apply to BNs? Ive always bred mine in pairs or trios but would prefer to just stick a few pairs or trios in a 40g breeder.

Thanks,

Lucas

[pleconut]

Either pairs, trios, or groups - with a small number of males for BNs are fine. But you would have lots of fry production with a group to house and rear, Another way is to start with two pairs. When breeding is imminent removal of a sub dominant male works as there's competition between males for a chance to breed. This will often trigger spawning. (I read this in a shanes world article) , Trios can work with other plecos, some grow to such a size where a colony is unfeasible, or stress from territorial tendencies would impede breeding anyway, if too many are present. The smaller plecos that are managed well in a colony, increase the chances of spawning, it would probably work this way for larger plecos too, but only a lucky few have the kind of sized tanks required.

[Forester]

Teresa I sent you a PM.

Thanks

[apistomaster]

I always maintained breeding colonies with only one species per group.
Who knows if pheromones are used by these fishes for some sort of signals or stimuli. It doesn't seem too farfetched although I never have depended upon this hypothetical.
Liberal, frequent water changes plus several feedings of live worms weekly sure never kept my fishes' from breeding.

[bekateen]

On a technical note, "pheromones" have very specific definitions in biology, and scientists need to identify several features of a suspected chemical pheromone in order to properly define the meaning of the communication it represents.

One such feature (about all types of communication, not just pheromonal communication) is, "who is the intended recipient of the message?" For mating pheromones, the answer is usually "potential mates," i.e., the pheromone is intended to attract or stimulate members of the opposite sex to make them more willing or ready to spawn with the individual sending the message (secreting the pheromone).

As a result, mating (sex, courtship, or reproductive, whatever you call them) pheromones are often NOT intended to be detected by animals of different species because the sender of the message doesn't want to attract animals of the wrong species (at least wasting the sender's efforts to spawn with a proper mate, and potentially creating interspecific hybrids), and the sender CERTAINLY doesn't want to get the attention of potential predators which might follow the pheromone trail back to the sender and eat them, or at least be attracted to the scene and potentially eat the resulting eggs or babies (should the fish successfully mate beforehand). Sometimes these pheromones are so specific that they can't even be detected by members of the same species but of the wrong sex (i.e., in some species, males don't respond to pheromones secreted by other males). So this type of mating pheromone would work only on potential mates in the correct species.

That said, there are other things going on in nature too. Although some pheromones are very specific, others are not. For example, males will naturally have testosterone metabolites in their urine, and females will naturally have estrogen metabolites in their urine. And as you might expect, the amounts of these substances (or other hormones and metabolites associated with reproduction) in the urine will increase when the animal's sexual activity increases, and decrease during the non-spawning season. As a result, some animals use these hormonal waste products of sexual activity as coincidental pheromones (that's not a technical term, just a figurative concept). For some animals, these almost "universal" signals are more "easy-to-understand" by unintended recipients - members of the same sex, fish of different species, and even potential enemies or predators. And there's nothing the sending animals can do about it; when they are sexually active, their sex hormone levels increase and therefore their urinary release of these will also increase; and if other animals can smell these metabolites, then they will know what you're doing.

It is this latter type of chemical which may work to stimulate spawning between species. But there's no guarantee that the fish you are working with can smell or detect the chemical signals released by the fish you're using as a "source." It would be wonderful if we as fish keepers could keep a log about which species work with which others, and which species don't seem to have any effect when paired together in a two-species tank.

To be realistic, though, there could potentially be so many confounding factors. If you are able to get one species to spawn by changing the water (its pH, temperature, conductivity, etc.) or altering food supply/quality, then it may be these same triggers that are stimulating the other fish species, too, and not specifically a pheromone being released by the first species.

The issue would be difficult to confirm in the end, but definitely, it would behoove us to start making such a list in order to get the conversation started.

Cheers, Eric

[pleconut]

If this theory was to be true, the concept of artificially injecting a fish not known to breed in captive tanks, but kept in close proximity to larger numbers fish of the same species. Wouldn't injecting only a certain amount of the population, i assume, both males and females with different hormones be enough to trigger a response in the whole population. If the theory behind this was feasible? Are the hormones used the same even for different species?

[bekateen]

If this theory was to be true, the concept of artificially injecting a fish not known to breed in captive tanks, but kept in close proximity to larger numbers fish of the same species. Wouldn't injecting only a certain amount of the population, i assume, both males and females with different hormones be enough to trigger a response in the whole population. If the theory behind this was feasible?

The theory does hold true (Trust me; this is what I work on for a living, except in frogs, not fish), but it is not universal for all species. So just because it works for some species, we can't expect that it will work for any random species also, without us first finding out whether the species uses mating pheromones to begin with (many don't), and whether the pheromone is a very specific one or a more general one ( or even potentially a mix).

That said, you're idea is valid, although we wouldn't expect the "whole" population to respond. More than likely, in a population of individuals of the same species, you can imagine that some of them may be ready to mate right now, some others will be almost ready to mate but they might need more conditioning, and some just aren't close to being ready, even if they are sexually mature (maybe they are subordinate in the social structure of the population; maybe they are otherwise stressed; maybe they can't find adequate mating sites, etc.).

So if you inject some individuals with hormones to stimulate their reproductive systems and spawning motivation, they may secrete pheromones which will also excite other fish which are "ready," and maybe also most of those which are "almost ready," but the pheromones will probably have no effect on fish which are nowhere close to being ready. Also, if the pheromones they release are sex-specific, then getting males to secrete pheromones for females won't automatically stimulate other males to come into spawning behavior; however, if the females then reciprocate and secrete pheromones of their own (intended for males), then this could excite the other males coincidently.

Cheers, Eric

P.S.

Trust me; this is what I work on for a living...

I apologize if this sounds snobby; I don't intend it to be. Rather, I stated it because this subject is really interesting to me, so I enjoy pondering the possibilities in this subject (and that's why I work in this area ).