Raising TDS Using Calcium Carbonate?

[Narwhal72]

my mistake Mats. I sometimes confuse GH with TDS. What I meant to say is that sodium increases TDS without affecting pH.

[MatsP]

Glad we sorted that out (and I'm not going mad! ;) [any more than usual at least!])

--
Mats

[Sue Foster]

Mt. Kisco, if I remember right just above NYC a bit. I'm an escaped NYer. It's a big enough town where you might find water reports online or at least nearby towns.

poof! Here it is....

http://www.mountkisco.org/Pages/MtKisco ... r/2004.pdf

and a more recent one from the county

http://www.westchestergov.com/planningd ... itions.pdf

I have really, really soft water. Like dissolve snails and shrimp within days soft. I use an organic garden lime, Espoma brand to add to the water. Outside in the garden I use cheaper stuff but for the tanks I use this brand because the organic labeling provides some safeguards as far as heavy metal contamination. It also dissolves a little faster than the $4 for 80lb garden lime.

There is a breakdown of just what is in it on the back of the bag. Lots cheaper than buying ready made stuff. It can be found at most garden centers and walmart.

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r182 ... t=lime.jpg

[MatsP]

Outside in the garden I use cheaper stuff but for the tanks I use this brand because the organic labeling provides some safeguards as far as heavy metal contamination. It also dissolves a little faster than the $4 for 80lb garden lime.

I'm not familiar with this product, but I'm curious as to what these guarantees are - and more importantly, what indications there are that other products aren't just as good.

The fact that it dissolves better is clearly a good thing, so that in itself may be a good reason to use this particular product.

--
Mats

[Sue Foster]

The USDA protects the word organic and actually defines what is and isn't to the point where it is silly.
For example I have a very large vegetable garden. In good years I will sell the excess vegetables in front of the house. I can't technically say the vegetables are organic because I am not organically certified.I use no chemical fertilizers or pesticides. Just lime which is allowed and manures from my horses and poultry. As far as most people are concerned that's organic. But legally I can't post them that way.
They come and check and make you pay for it. So a lot of small farms started saying things were grown "naturally" now the USDA is trying to take control of that word too. I've noticed some of the local farms now advertising their produce as "no weird stuff used".

Sore spot.
Our USDA bigwigs are largely from the industrial agriculture giants like Monsanto and Cargill. Slowly choking the small farm under peoples noses. Enough of that! Nothing to do with fish.

Anyway one good thing about it is if a product is mass marketed with the word organic on it they are watched closely for heavy metals and other pollutants you wouldn't want.

It's a glorious day! I'm stepping away from this computer and into the real world.

[apistomaster]

I have had many L134 spawns when the breeding tank was allowed to be replaced gradually with tap water to facilitate removing their accumulated fry to 40 breeders filled with tap water.(My broods typically range between 25 and 35 fry). At these times, instead of the water TDS being below 100 ppm it was as high as 340 ppm. When L134 are in their spawning season, water quality matters far more than the hardness and pH.
Getting L134 in the mood is what is the mysterious and hard part. I still do not have a full understanding of exactly what it take to induce them to spawn despite having raised well over 700 of them. I don't know why many who have bred L134 only get 5 or so fry. I only had 3 fry from one spawn that happened to occur in the winter when they normally have not spawned for me.

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- you folks seem to be missing some of the main issues.

Sue- thanks for the information, but we are on our own well. So none of it is really relevant.

Larry- my problem is not getting spawns from the 134, its been getting them to survive. None of 6 spawns has made it a day into free swimming yet. There is also the issue with the deformed contradens. I think these are both TDS related.

Finally, there is the fact that for many years almost anything would spawn in my tanks. Now its all pretty much stopped. Again I think its the TDS.

My take is that the TDS drop in my tap is likely from a lack of calcium specifically though not exclusively. Wgich is what got me to the Calcium Carbonate as a way to deal with things. That and it was what the FINS site suggested.

The same vendor for the Calcium Carbonate also offers Calcium Chloride http://www.amazon.com/Calcium-Chloride- ... 096&sr=1-1

I need to try one of the two. I just wonder why FINS said use the Carbonate rather than the Chloride?

[racoll]

I just wonder why FINS said use the Carbonate rather than the Chloride?

Carbonates should change the alkalinity (KH), while chloride won't.

[TwoTankAmin]

racoll- Thanks for explaining that. I will wait to decide what to try until the GH/KH kit arrives. Using them in conjunction w/ the TDS meter should give me a better idea of where things stand.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Carbonates should change the alkalinity (KH), while chloride won't.

This is true, another reason is that calcium chloride is much more soluble than calcium carbonate as well.
I'm not convinced that this is a calcium, TDS, dKH/dGH or pH issue. Even if it is a calcium issue, the crushed coral (the more soluble aragonite form of CaCO3) should cover this and guard against acidosis, due to the increase in dKH from the dissolved HCO3- ions. Alternatively either of these mixes will work:

You can make your own mix using Bicarbonate of Soda and CaCO3 in the right proportions, and possibly some MgSO4 & "I'd use calcium chloride, "Epsom Salts" (magnesium sulphate heptahydrate) and potassium bicarbonate".

After some thought about your fry deaths, I would be tempted to use a water conditioner that contains EDTA(as long as your water isn't iron rich), or an HMA filter, as I think this may be a heavy metal issue. Another possibility would be traces of pesticides in the water (possibly synthetic pyrethroid or organo-phosphate insecticides), again an HMA filter would eliminate these.

Calcium solubility.
CaCl2 - 74.5 g/100mL (20°C)
CaCO3 - 0.00015 mol/L (25°C) (CaCO3 = 100.1g in 1 litre = molar so approx. 0.0015g/mL), although calcium bicarbonate - Ca(HCO3)2 - 16.6 g/100 mL (20°C) is more soluble.

cheers Darrel

[Sue Foster]

Upstate NY is the poster child for acid rain and chemical runoff from groomed lawns. I'd be testing the well for your own safety. How far are you from that huge country club?

New England soils are notoriously low in calcium. You're just a breath away from NE.

A lot of the general values in the water reports do apply. You are tapping the same water table in the same general area. They probably have a more in-depth report available but don't post it.

Dug wells tend to be very soft and acid. Artesian wells contain more minerals but still tend to lack. Granite is mostly inert but just a tad on the acid side. Radon is also an issue with deep wells over granite bedrock.

I saw a report recently from the area on LI that I came from. I was kind of horrified. I didn't know what a lot of the chemicals showing up in the water were exactly but the names told me they were from solvents and petroleum products. There was also vague mention about the pollution to the aquifer caused by Grumman in it's heyday.

[apistomaster]

I also agree that the possibility of contaminates is likely causing the problem as deformities are not the result of any of the basic chemistry of the water parameters we fish keepers usually worry about.

[TwoTankAmin]

If my water was in any way "toxic" or "bad" for fish, then I assume the 8 wild caught Altum angels I have been raising now for close to 18 months would have long ago died or at least become ill and/or deformed? I keep a pretty decent variety of fish and I see no other indications that suggest water quality issues. My discus are fine, my clown loaches I have had for about 9 years are fine. My red cherry and amano shrimp are fine.

Our house is at close to the highest elevation in the county, we are on rock- to put in a pool or a basement in this area requires the use of explosives. So surface water percolates through a lot of natural filteration. If anybody suffers from runoff issues they would be our runoff effecting them not the reverse. This is a 4 acre zoning area, i.e. one house/4 acres and the other zoning regs mean that most home sites exceed that maximum. Moreover there are a number of sanctuaries in the area which means a lot of the area is not occupied. There are no factories there are no commercial farms, this is a residential area.

My issues are simple as is the evidence:
-My traditional method of letting water "dirty" up to simulate the dry season stopped working.
-Fish which are seasonal spawners have mostly stopped.
-In the past 9 months some some fry have been deformed.
-L134 spawns (6 to date) do not survive past 1 day free swimming. Most die sooner.
-Other sensitive fish show no issues.
-TDS which for years was steady at about 6dg GH and 5dg have dropped. TDS from the tap used to be in the 100-120ppm range and is now in the 75-78ppm range.
-Local population growth has been substantial over the past decade which has accelerated the rate that water moves into and out of the underground systems. It spends less time in contact with the rock and thus has less time to pick up mineralization from the contact.

As a student of Occam's razor, I tend to look for the simplest solution first. Yes I realize that there could be a less simple explanation here, but I feel I need to look first at what appears to be the most obvious problem in light of the known facts.

I have worked with crushed coral in the past with my co2 added planted tank. My issue with it is that it is not a precise nor easily controllable solution. It works slowly and when used in smaller quantities would result in fluctuations due to water changes. This was fine in the planted tank but would not be so acceptable whe seasonal spawning is involved. So I am looking for a better way to get a similar result but in a simpler and more controllable fashion.

I do not plan to megadose anything, I am using additives sparingly and at a measured pace. So I am not worried about harming the fish because water parameters are changed radically and quickly.

[racoll]

With dying or deformed fry, the first thing I would look at is bacterial levels.

Not saying you aren't running a tight ship, but it could always be tighter.

I would review your rearing methods, and see if any improvements in cleanliness can be made, such as for example: stopping using bare-bottom tanks, make more water changes, clean out detritus and water change daily, clean the filter more often, feed a different food, reduce feeding, maybe try a UV unit, maybe strip down and sterilise equipment. Just some ideas.

If you are convinced it is the mineral problems, I would first of all go with R/O right as an experiment (very little effort). If things work with that, then maybe think about mixing up your own cheaper alternative?

[apistomaster]

If we rule out chemical contamination, and I think that is a safe assumption, the deformities tend to occur most frequently among pleco eggs which are incubated in nets instead of naturally.

[TwoTankAmin]

I have probably produced well over 2,000+ pleco fry in the last 10 years, this includes 500+ zebra fry countless bristlenose fry and about 150 contradens fry. I have basically used the same systems and methods for all of this. I spawn in both bare bottom and substrated tanks and the same for raising fry. I prefer the bare bottom tanks. I have followed the same weekly water change and filter cleaning routines for years. Plus, I feed my fish a better selection and quality of foods than most people get.

Of 500+ zebra fry I have seen exactly 3-4 snubbers period. I had no issues with bristlenose and it is only the most recent batch or two of contradens fry had deformation issues. I am raising wild altums, keeping discus and have a few clown loaches with me for 9+ years now. Over the years I have had the following spawn as well: rosy barbs (to F3); montezuma swords; zebra and choprae danio; threadfin, gertrudae and furcatus rainbows; dd black angels; panda, paleatus, sterbai and similis corys (no fry from the latter); red cherry shrimp; P. nicholsi; betta imbellis; farlowella vittata and A. australe.

My problems in the past have been having too many fry, that is until the past year. I do not understand why no matter how many times I have reiterated the facts that so many responders here seem to have ignored these facts and insist upon looking at everything and anything but them.

Fish are not dying on me, fish are not sick in my tanks. The problems are all recent and the only measurable factor there is at this point is that the TDS of my tap water has dropped from the range of 106-124ppm to its present levels in the upper 70s ppm and that my pH has dropped from 7.4 to just over 7. The pH drop could very well be related to lower KH. Moreover raising GH/KH is often accomplished by using calcium carbonate.

Given that I have also has some deformed contradens (the fish that continued producing viable spawns the longest before finally halting), looking to calcium deficiency seemed one logical thing to consider. Not having 134 fry make it to free swimming also seemed that it might be the result of low TDS as well.

Given that most plecos are seasonal spawners and that markedly different TDS levels are an integral part of dry and rainy seasons, the drop in my tap TDS again would seem to point towards this being an issue.

If I had problems with metals, bacteria in the water or poor maintenance, the altums would have been floaters, the discus as well not to mention the shrimp. I should have lost a lot of fry too. So all of the indications point towards TDS/GH/KH related issues as the likely cause while other facts would seem to eliminate a lot of the other possibilities being mentioned.

So I plan to pursue the solution here not as anything more complicated than needing more calcium and higher TDS levels. Once the new GH/KH kit arrives I will post in this thread what the tap levels for them are. One last note, I am dealing with this issue in 7 pleco tanks currently, all Hypans save one tank of wc 134s.

[apistomaster]

Hi twotank,
I know you to be a very successful fish breeder and I never meant to insult your intelligence in any of my comments. But I do not see how this recent drop in your tap water's hardness and TDS could be responsible for any of your recent problems. I would expect it to be working in your favor.

It is a fact as a few of us have written that the water chemistry changes very little between the wet and dry seasons. However the wet season does bring many profound and complex changes to the fishes environment. Namely the increased area of their habitat in the available and fertile flooded flood plain forests, an increase in the food supply for both conditioning the breeding fish and their fry food supplies. A hiccup wherein I could not get my fish to breed as they had previously is inevitable. Case in point, this year I haven't been able to get any of my L134 to spawn. .

I know you see a cause and effect relationship associated with your now much softer water but even at this new level it is still harder water than these fishes native habitats. That is why I do not think that is the problem.
It may be merely a coincidence that your fish are having trouble because as you said, your Altum Angels and Discus continue to thrive. That your altums thrive in particular is a good indication of you still have excellent water from your tap.
I have bred wild Discus and many plecos but have also experienced problems such as this year my L134 still have not spawned after 4 years of consistently getting about 200 fry each season from a small group of 6 wild breeders. I haven't changed any conditions that I am aware of. Only their increasing age is what I know is changing. It is always possible to hit a wall once in awhile whenever you are involved with raising any living things. Think about the risks of farming and ranching. They have good and bad years and mediocre years. Sometimes all one can do is ride them out because breeding and raising fishes is not ever guaranteed regardless of how experienced one may be. I think any advanced breeder of fishes has had similar experiences at different times in their fish breeding careers. I know how frustrated I am because I have become accustomed to producing so many L134 every year then suddenly this year I have had no spawns to date.
I only know one thing to do and that is to keep at it and be patient. That is how you got to where you are and it will be how you will come out the other side of this current dearth in productivity. I can not see any reasons why having softer water now can be the cause of the problem. It would actually be more unusual for one to not have a bad year once in awhile.
I spent many years where about all i did was breed Killiefish and I took it for granted that I could breed anything anytime I wanted but I have hit that wall at times and couldn't seem to breed even easier species like A. australe. I lost count of how many Killiefish species I have propagated somewhere around the 100th species mark. I began breeding them in 1968. I have been a an AKA member off and on since 1968 and still am now. I have had the same thing happen with Apistogramma where I seemed to be able to breed anything I could get my hands on and yet at times I can't even get the beginners Apistos to breed. I accept this as part of being a fish breeder. I could give up but I find if I persist I will eventually see the pendulum swing back in my favor. I am now beginning my 50th year of breeding fishes and I have seen my share of ups and downs and I like to think I am growing wiser but that makes me no less immune from hitting walls.
Fish are simply never sure things to propagate regardless of one's level of experience and skill. It will be your experience and skill combined with your persistence that will let you over come the present difficulties. Neither one of us has chosen the easiest fish in the hobby to breed and with that comes times of frustration. You will get back in a groove again but it may be different than your previous stages. That has been my experience. I used to have a wet thumb for breeding wild Discus but then after several dry years I'll get a pair to breed. Yet I know more about them now than I have ever known in the past.
I sometimes delve into breeding some Tetras or something other than my primary money makers as distractions to help me through the the hard times. I sometimes breed some wild Bettas too. I only like the small bubble nesting species and have raised 1000's of B. imbellis and Betta species "Mahachai" plus some Betta smaragdina. I am still having trouble with breeding Betta coccina complex species but they are more difficult than the others. Presently they are one of my distracting side projects. Diversions away from pleco breeding problems which I expect will be resolved by continuing to try but with more patience.

I am just trying to share with you that despite my own considerable experience I still have my share of problems and am sharing some of the ways I deal with them by dabbling with some other fish while I await my primary fish to get back in their groove.
I never use artificial rearing of pleco eggs and fry unless I find some ejected eggs. I think it is because it is easy to damage some of the developing embryos during the transference to a breeding net or hatching tank. I only have encountered some deformed pleco fry among those I raised artificially.
One of the reasons the fish breeding hobby is so attractive to us is not because we are always successful but for reasons similar to a gambling addiction where positive reinforcement is variable and not predictable.

[TwoTankAmin]

Larry-

I appreciate your input and decades of experience. It far exceeds mine. However, lets just look at a single species, the zebra. They are seasonal spawners like so many SA fish, but theirs' is a pretty different experience than many of the other seasonal spawners.

While rivers do overflow their banks and create vast flood plain areas, this has no relevance to the zebra. It lives deep in faster flowing waters and to the best of my knowledge does not leave this habitat no matter how flooded the region around the river where they live becomes. So everything that they experience has to come to them, they do not go to it.

If the flood plains per se have no bearing on how and why they spawn, then it seems to me it has to be the other factors which do change in their environment that trigger them to spawn. And that would be some changes in water temperature, water levels, GH, KH, flow rates and pH levels. And once again this brings me back to TDS and what goes into it and also how it may effect pH. Of course there is also the availability of food playing some role as well as the barometric pressure changes that accompany the changes between the dry and rainy seasons.

Chris

[apistomaster]

Since H. zebra are a very localized species found around Altimira rapids in the Rio Xingu when the wet season arrives, the rapids do flood out into the broader areas of rocky habitats. I know they do not breed in the broader flood plains where Discus and other fish breed but the available rocky environment definitely increases to many times that of the low water line. The food supplies are increased by both the flooded forests and newly covered exposed rocky areas. The majority of aquatic insects time their emergence and breeding to the seasonal water level fluctuations just like many fish so the Zebras do have much more breeding habitat and increased food supplies during the high water. So great is the increased coverage of the rocky environment at high water that fishing for them is impossible at high water. It is irrelevant that it is illegal to fish for H. zebra. Poaching still is going on when the fish become more accessible. The salient point is at high water the fish have much more rocky environment available for breeding and the food supplies are at their peak. Of course they do not penetrate the flooded jungles as that is not the kind of habitat they have evolved to exploit. I see this same phenomenon with Trout in the fast large rivers out west. That is when the native Rainbows and Cutthroat trout spawn. There is more spawning bed gravels available and larger numbers of aquatic insect larvae that both the adults and fry require. It is at the highest water levels of the year and no Trout fishing in rivers is allowed until after the spawning season has ended. Even if it was open the fishing would be much harder since the rocky river beds are full from bank to bank due to spring run off.
The actual water chemistry does not change much in tropical South American rivers seasonally. There is a dramatic increase in fresh water, available suitable breeding habitat and increased food supplies. These are the factors that I believe are more relevant than the small changes in their already extremely soft and acidic waters. I find it incredulous to believe that minute changes of their water chemistry and/or barometric pressures matters more than the increased volume of fresh water, spawning habitat and food supplies.

I haven't bred H. zebra but I have been breeding L260 for 4 years and they seem to be seasonal for the most part. L260 and H. zebra are similar in nearly every respect when it comes to their habits and size. Mine breed most often in the late fall and early winter.
My L134 only breed between Feb 15 to August 30. Not every fish species has the same spawning season. I do not presume to know everything about their biology. If I did I would not presently be undergoing my own disruption in L134 breeding or would know what I could do differently to induce them to breed. I have measured my water enough for both species to know they can breed very successfully in water with a pH as high as 7.5 and since I mainly test TDS, it has been as high as 350 ppm. I have also had them breed well when the pH was about 6.0 and the TDS was about 40 ppm. This tells me that water chemistry is not all that important.
We each are experiencing similar difficulties in breeding some plecos we have come to believe that we thought we understood better than we apparently do.
In both L260 and Peckoltia compta I have had them breed in their apparent seasons when my water was straight from the tap although I typically have had the majority of spawns occur when I am keeping them in mostly RO water. I really do not measure the hardness often. I simply keep in mind the approximate ratio of RO to tap water in mind but I do not keep close tabs on the pH nor any other water chemistry measurements. When I am not expecting them to breed I simply keep them in straight tap water.
I do know I allow my hardness to vary greatly even when the water is being kept highly diluted with RO water. I have never found a compelling reason to do more. If the fish want to breed they do in spite of and not necessarily because of what chemical changes I may have made. I guess it is my somewhat cavalier disregard for water chemistry that makes me think the small change which has occurred in your tap water has much to do with your frustrating or my frustrating current lack of good results we both have come to expect of our breeding groups.
I simply take better care of my fish just before and during when they have historically been their most productive.
I daresay I do not put nearly as much effort into caring for my fish as you and others do. It would be very difficult to find a successful fish breeder with a more lackadaisical approach to fish breeding than mine. It is hard for me to do the basic routine aquarium care because I have some mobility and severe pain issues. I do no more than is necessary out of necessity.
So in no way am I being critical of your greater degree of attention. I am merely trying to demonstrate how little attention I can provide and still get results and my lessor degree of actual care is my evidence of how low I consider the importance of minor changes of water chemistry is to breeding plecos. I present my approach as not an example of better methodology but as an example of how little role we may play in getting fish to breed. To me, plecos are a boring fish to keep and breed because all they do is hide. I am delighted when I turn on the lights and see new pleco fry. Those are the days when the effort seems well worthwhile. I consider what little care or I should say effort I can put into them is work I resent but find that by stepping up my game at the right time sometimes makes the damned fish breed. And how sometimes it doesn't. I do not advise anyone to try to use my approach because my idea of "benign neglect" is others ideas of almost total disregard for my fish. Sometimes this costs me dearly and I kill a couple thousand dollars worth of fish. It is the price I pay for taking on more than I can physically handle sometimes. In balance, I manage to raise and sell enough fish to help me have my hobby pay for itself and sometimes earn a few extra dollars I otherwise couldn't due to my disabilities.
I consider myself fortunate that before I became disabled, I had a lifetime of experience breeding fish and learned some ways to help me work around my present day limitations.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
I'm not looking to pick an argument either, but I have to agree with Larry - "Apistomaster".

But I do not see how this recent drop in your tap water's hardness and TDS could be responsible for any of your recent problems. I would expect it to be working in your favor.

I think that an HMA filter may be the way forward, as it could be a heavy metal or pesticide issue.

I'd use a water conditioner that contains EDTA(as long as your water isn't iron rich), or an HMA filter, as I think this may be a heavy metal issue. Another possibility would be traces of pesticides in the water (possibly synthetic pyrethroid or organo-phosphate insecticides), again an HMA filter would eliminate these.

I also think Racoll may have a point

With dying or deformed fry, the first thing I would look at is bacterial levels.

I personally like a substrate as well as I know I'm not a "conscientious cleaner", and a coarse sand substrate offers advantages in maintaining stable water parameters.

I have worked with crushed coral in the past with my co2 added planted tank. My issue with it is that it is not a precise nor easily controllable solution. It works slowly and when used in smaller quantities would result in fluctuations due to water changes. This was fine in the planted tank but would not be so acceptable when seasonal spawning is involved. So I am looking for a better way to get a similar result but in a simpler and more controllable fashion.

If you don't want to use crushed coral, a combination of calcium chloride, potassium or sodium bi-carbonate and magnesium sulphate heptahydrate can be adjusted to give any TDS, dkH and gKH value you want, the pH effect is more dependent upon other factors.

PM if you want an Excel spreadsheet (to help with the calculations).

cheers Darrel

[racoll]

I do not understand why no matter how many times I have reiterated the facts that so many responders here seem to have ignored these facts and insist upon looking at everything and anything but them.

We're just making suggestions based on our experiences. No need to get uppity. It pays to be polite when people are giving their time to help, regardless of whether you agree with them.

[TwoTankAmin]

Finally got the GH and KH kits. Tap water tested at 86ppm with the TDS Meter and GH tested st barely 5dg while KH tested at 3dg.

I am using pretreated water for water changes on 7 tanks. I began two weeks back by putting bags of crushed coral on a few filters and had them on all 9 tanks by the end of last week. I have been doing my own mix to pre-treat the water which consists of running a HOT Magnum filter filled with crushed coral in a 20 gal can of tap water. To this I add about 3 teaspoons of Epsom and about 1/6 teaspoon of baking soda. The result is water that gives a TDS reading of between 125 and 140 ppm. I will mix in more tap if its above 130 ppm to bring it down below that level. The changing water tests at GH 7dg and KH still at 3dg (however, I think it is slightly higher but under 4dg). The pH on this mix was just under 7.4 vs just over 7.0 for tap.

The TDS levels on all of the 7 tanks are now between 113 and 126 ppm. I have seen no signs of distress from any of the fish. My plan is to reach a level in the range of 115-120 ppm for growout tanks and slightly higher for breeder tanks and hold it there for a while. Eventually I will look to raise the levels in 4 Hypancistrus breeding tanks using a combination of reduced water changes and higher TDS replacement water. The Peckoltia compta I will not raise.

Hopefully, some time this summer I should be able to switch over to rainy season by using untreated tap and a good storm.

[krazyGeoff]

Hi TwoTank,
I have been following this post as someone who has bred some stuff and has the following readings from my tap water;
pH 7.2
TDS 80-90ppm
kH = 0
GH = 0

I agree with your idea, but I am using the TDS, pH etc readings as indicators of change, rather than literal values.
Anyway I have experienced the "all stop now " with the breeding of the plecs.
Part of my thoery is about the natual buffering capacity of the tanks, and associated furniture.
The point that I have found which may be of interest to you is once the buffering capacity of the "tank" has been reduced then I found it nearly impossible (and frightfully expensive) to increase the buffering capacity with any degree of stability with any calcium / calcium carbonate based products.
Currently I am using Seachem Neutral Regulator, which I believe is a phosphate based product?
The stability of my systems is 100 times better than with the previous products I have used.
Time will tell I guess as to whether it makes a difference.
As you suggest the "rainy season" will be straight tap water.
Whilst I am by no means an expert on water conditions, nor do I have years and years of breeding experience, I do feel that I am understanding your water issues as you have described them. (and I have no intention of explaining why your water has changed)

I am very intereested in the results.
Cheers
Geoff

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Tap water tested at 86ppm with the TDS Meter and GH tested st barely 5dg while KH tested at 3dg.

Those sound good parameters for most SA fish, 86ppm TDS should be about 130 microS conductivity, and 5dGH is also absolutely fine. I'd be happy with 3dKH as well, but you can raise this with your coral gravel or sodium or potassium bicarbonate to 4 or 5 dKH if you are worried about acidosis (from the conversion of NH3 to NO2- to NO3- + H+).

The TDS levels on all of the 7 tanks are now between 113 and 126 ppm.

Job done, all you need to do now is monitor the TDS with the meter and keep it in the 110 - 130 ppm range, if you want to drop the TDS, you can just use a large tap water change. Because I'm not convinced that this is a mineral issue, I would add a conditioner containing EDTA to all your tap water if you don't want to go to the expense of having a HMA filter.

Currently I am using Seachem Neutral Regulator, which I believe is a phosphate based product? The stability of my systems is 100 times better than with the previous products I have used.

I'm not familiar with the "Seachem Neutral regulator" but I would be pretty sure it is a mix of monosodium phosphate and its conjugate base, disodium phosphate, these buffer at just over pH7 and are very stable, but you can adjust it about 1 unit up or down by varying the proportion of the acid and base.

The point that I have found which may be of interest to you is once the buffering capacity of the "tank" has been reduced then I found it nearly impossible (and frightfully expensive) to increase the buffering capacity with any degree of stability with any calcium / calcium carbonate based products.

Personally I'm not a great fan of "pH down" buffers, as a low pH maintained by a buffer is very different from a naturally low pH, but I've never had any problem with raising the pH. Have you tried the various DIY salt mixes on <http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/buffer_recipe.php> etc?

cheers Darrel

[MatsP]

Looking at Seachem's description of "Neutral Regulator", it seems to contain several other components, beyond the phosphate buffer.

"It softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium while removing any chlorine, chloramine, or ammonia."

Sounds fantastic, but I'm not sure it's quite as good as it sounds...

Whole blurb is here:
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... lator.html

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

Because I'm not convinced that this is a mineral issue, I would add a conditioner containing EDTA to all your tap water if you don't want to go to the expense of having a HMA filter.

Lets assume for a moment that there is an issue with heavy metals or pesticides or anything else in the well water that would necessitate the use of EDTA or an HMA filter. Forget about the spawning pleco side of things. What would you expect would be the effect on various fish, what physical or behavioral symptoms should manifest themselves on these species specifically:

Wild caught altums angels?
Domestic and wild caught discus?
Clown loaches?
Rummynose Tetras?
Assorted zebra pleco fry ranging from 1 -2 inches and assorted contradens fry ranging from .75- 2 inches? (All fry born in my tanks.)
FW shrimp and snails?

Also, while it isn't a huge difference, I mis-reported my tap TDS at 86ppm, they are 83 ppm. This is still up a tad from initial tests showing potential problems with levels in the high 70 ppms.

As to why I am interested in raising the KH, aside from its contribution to TDS, is because in several tanks I have a lot of bog wood which has a tendency to lower soften the water as well as lower the pH. On today's list of fishroom ToDos is testing the GH, KH and pH in several of the tanks both before and after doing weekly water changes.

Finally, due to some of the replies in this thread I have been doing further research into the water parameters of SA rivers, especially the Amazon. One of the more interesting things I ran across was this:

In the São Félix do Xingu region, southern portion of Amazonian craton, voluminous well-preserved Late Paleoproterozoic volcanic and plutonic rocks are grouped in the Sobreiro and Santa Rosa formations. The basal Sobreiro Formation (1.88 Ga) is composed of massive andesitic to rhyodacitic flows and volcaniclastic facies that are high-K and metaluminous, geochemically similar to calc-alkaline granitoids of volcanic arcs

From http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... archtype=a
Would this not relate to TDS levels in the Xingu? There are some interesting research papers (for which I can only see the Abstract w/o paying $30-$40 for the full paper]. They deal with mineralization and sediments in the Amazon, especially those originating in the Andes.

I also ran across this article:
"Dry and Rainy Seasons in the Tank

by Kristian Adolfsson
of Sweden, web site http://www.corydoras.net"

It discussed the various

"Spawning triggers in nature:

Below follows a list of the different changes that can occur during the rainy season's beginning and that might trigger a species to spawn. They are not listed in any particular order, and which of them various species need to spawn is not fully known.

Item # 6

Dilution of dissolved substances in the water
The longer the dry season lasts, the more salts, humic substances and organic material are concentrated in the water that remains. When the rain starts the concentration of these substances decreases due to dilution. The river, the stream etc. is diluted with rainwater that has zero hardness, which lowers the hardness and often even the pH.

How do we simulate these things in the tank?

Below are suggestions on how to simulate the different stimuli that are listed above. Which to choose depends on which species is to be bred. Certain species might require only a few, e.g. good feeding and a water change with lower water temperature, while others need most of the items from the list.

Dilution of dissolved substances in the water
Build a higher level of humic substances ( e.g. peat and alder cones) and salts (fertiliser, CaCO3, MgSO4) during the simulated dry season. Later, dilute with as soft water as possible when the rainy season begins (preferably RO water).

The full article can be found here http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/bre ... asons.html

[MatsP]

From this:
http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/A-xingu.html

Rio Xingu would appear to have a conductivity of about 120 uS/cm in "dry season", and around 20 uS/cm in "wet season". That corresponds to a TDS meter reading of somewhere around 80 and 14 respectively.

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

Thanks for the info MatsP. What I am curious about however is the fact that:

Conversion of conductivity to ppm is always an approximation since conductivity will vary with the water composition, pH, CO2 content, and temperature of the stream.

I also wonder how relevant is the fact that the two measurements that are referenced in that article were made about 12 years apart.

[MatsP]

Right, you can't say "X uS/cm = Y ppm" precisely - or even roughly. However, your TDS meter is a EC meter with "different numbers on the dial" (a bit like a car speedo adjusted from MPH to KM/H). The only way to CORRECTLY measure the TDS is to take a sample of water, keep it in an oven at 180'C, and weigh the remains when all the water has evaporated. All other methods are approximations. Note that I said "...on a TDS meter that corresponds to...". The word "meter" in that quote is important.

As to the measurements being years apart, yes, that is true. Generally, rivers that have been flowing for approximately 10 million years, and the chemical composition of wet season and dry season will vary within a range. These are just two samples from dry and wet season respectively. Clearly that doesn't mean that it's ALWAYS 120 uS/cm in dry season and 20 uS/cm in wet season. But it shows that the variation is much larger than what you PROBABLY are doing in your tank. And that your current water, from a EC perspective is about dry season.

Now, another point to consider here is that EC is probably more important than particular readings of KH, pH, GH, CO2 levels, or whatever else you care to measure. However, ALL of these are related in the sense that if you (attempt to) change one, one or more of the others will change too in some way or another. It is a bid like a baloon filled with rice that you are trying to make into a certain shape - if you push one place, it bulges out elsewhere - and it doesn't matter which way you push or pull, SOMEWHERE else there will also be a change.

--
Mats

[racoll]

Rio Xingu would appear to have a conductivity of about 120 uS/cm in "dry season", and around 20 uS/cm in "wet season".

Yes, Evers & Seidel (2005) report 120 uS/cm for the Xingu at Altamira at the end of September (peak dry season). I can't find a reference for when river flows are highest in March/April, as probably few people bother to visit as fishes are too hard to catch. I expect about 20 uS/cm is not far wrong.

That corresponds to a TDS meter reading of somewhere around 80 and 14 respectively.

My TDS/EC meter just divides the EC by 2 to get TDS.

Would this not relate to TDS levels in the Xingu? There are some interesting research papers (for which I can only see the Abstract w/o paying $30-$40 for the full paper]. They deal with mineralization and sediments in the Amazon, especially those originating in the Andes.

Not sure if you can extrapolate anything about water in the rivers from that paper.

For a good general overview, look out for the Smithsonian Atlas of the Amazon. It doesn't give you detailed breakdowns of water parameters in every river, but presents a really nice geography of the region's rivers.