Raising TDS Using Calcium Carbonate?

[TwoTankAmin]

According to FINS (mirror site of thekrib.com):

To raise both GH and KH simultaneously, add calcium carbonate (CaCO3). 1/2 teaspoon per 100 liters of water will increase both the KH and GH by about 1-2 dH. Alternatively, add some sea shells, coral, limestone, marble chips, etc. to your filter.

Would this be a safe bet? http://www.amazon.com/Calcium-Carbonate ... B004MNVFW8

My tap has dropped into the high 70sppm TDS. I need to be able to get it up in the range of 200-250 ppm to simulate the dry season and then use my pure tap to get back to the rainy season. Using crushed coral seems to be much less precise and harder to manage.

[racoll]

Yes, this sounds like a viable plan.

I am not sure though which of the major electrolytes the fish will actually respond to (it might be more than just calcium). Could be worth trying a complete mix of GH salts (such as Kent Marine's "R/O Right")?

Apologies if this below is obvious, but it's a good idea to mention anyway...

Before messing around with adding chemicals to the tank, make sure you have a decent KH chemical test kit, and digital TDS/pH meters.

Be sure to also never add these chemicals direct to the tank. Make up a bucket and test it for pH/KH/TDS before/after aeration for 48 hours.

Once you have a good idea of how you have changed this water, then add it to the tank as part of weekly water changes.

[Bas Pels]

I'm glad Racoil mentioned pH - adding CaCO3 will raise your pH markedly, and will perhaps limit the amount used.

NEVER raise (or lower) the pH more than a whole point. And how much stuff you may add within these limits depends on the water in your tank - I can not do any calculation

[TwoTankAmin]

It has been suggested to me that it make more sense to use something like Kent R/O Right which uses several minerals/chemicals to raise the TDS not just a single one.

[PlecoCrazy]

It has been suggested to me that it make more sense to use something like Kent R/O Right which uses several minerals/chemicals to raise the TDS not just a single one.

That's what I use. Get's expensive though.

[MatsP]

So, you can make your own mix using Bicarbonate of Soda and CaCO3 in the right proportions, and possibly some MgSO4.

--
Mats

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It has been suggested to me that it make more sense to use something like Kent R/O Right which uses several minerals/chemicals to raise the TDS not just a single one.

Kent Marine won't tell you exactly what is in RO right, but it is about 60% sodium chloride (ordinary salt).

So, you can make your own mix using Bicarbonate of Soda and CaCO3 in the right proportions, and possibly some MgSO4.

I'd definitely go for that as a recipe, but I'd just change the chemicals slightly (but not the concept). I'd use calcium chloride (much more soluble than calcium carbonate, you can get it from "Home Brew" shops), "Epsom Salts" (Magnesium sulphate heptahydrate) and potassium bicarbonate (but only better than sodium bicarbonate if you have a planted tank). This should prove a lot cheaper. If you are worried about micro-elements a mixed diet should supply these, but as plants and animals largely have the same requirements you could use a micro-nutrient supplement designed for the planted aquarium.

cheers Darrel

[racoll]

Kent Marine won't tell you exactly what is in RO right, but it is about 60% sodium chloride (ordinary salt).

If they won't tell us, how do you know?

[dw1305]

Hi all,

If they won't tell us, how do you know?

Fair question, but they can't stop people analysing their products. I have access to a "Varian 220FS Atomic Absorption Spectrophotometer" <http://www.geogshare.dur.ac.uk/sites/la ... .aspx?id=2>, but to analyse a solution for sodium ions, you only need a flame photometer. We also have selective ion electrodes.

There is also the MSDS information supplied by Kent:
Ingredient Name %
CALCIUM SALTS < 0 - 20
CARBONIC SALTS < 0 - 20
MAGNESIUM SALTS < 0 - 20
SODIUM SALTS < 0 - 40
SULFATES < 0 - 20

and this is from their technical department:

This is the extent of what I am able to give out except that a major part of the salts in the product is sodium chloride as this is the highest occurring salt found in nature. The specific ingredients are held proprietary. I am not even allowed to see the breakdown formula.

I also have access to gas chromatography kit and an HPLC, so potentially we could analyse for any organic compounds, as well as ions, but this is more difficult, unless you have a fair idea of what compounds are present, (because you need a library of compounds to compare against).

cheers Darrel

[TwoTankAmin]

Nothing is ever simple in the world of fish keeping.

1. I really do not believe that salt is an ideal ingredient. It may be fine for African cichlids but not for plecos. So I would prefer not to use it in the quest to raise TDS.

2. Epsom salt is a great diuretic for fish and may be plant friendly, but I have enough pleco poop already and I rarely use plants in Hypancistrus tanks. So again I would prefer not to use this ingredient either.

3. Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3), aka baking soda, tends to drive pH towards an equilibrium of about 8.2, again something I do not want in the tanks. I presume if the amount used is held to a minimum the pH effects could be minimized, but then so too would the TDS increasing effect.

So I am back to the idea of working with mostly the CaCo3 and perhaps adding a pinch of baking. I do use Tropica Plant Nutrition liquid (or rather its old form, Mastergrow) in my planted tanks and could dose some of this as well despite no plants. Lets also not forget I am not starting with ro water but rather low TDS tap which does contain some level of the other elements.

[MatsP]

I'm not at all convinced that Epsom salt is that much of a laxative - I suspect the benefit as a treatment is the general addition of mineral/conductivity and the benefits that this CAN HAVE.

Aside from that, I wouldn't recommend the mix to have a LARGE proportion of Epsom salt. Just a tiny bit. It adds hardness without adding KH - which means it doesn't alter the pH. If we go by the Seachem Equilibrium recipe, it contains approx 2% Mg. The other ingredients are 19.5% Potassium, 8% Calcium, and about 0.15% of Iron and Manganese. The remaining approximately 70% is SO4.

Olive oil can be used as a laxative in humans, but no one suggests that you should stop using olive oil as an ingredient.

--
Mats

[apistomaster]

I am with MatsP on the Epsom salt as laxative. I am full of skepticism. This is gospel among the Discus community but Discus lore is full of misconceptions taken as faith.
I have said this on Discus forums and personally think that it is an example of anthropomorphism applied to fish at it's most ridiculous logical extremes.

I am very satisfied just using my tap water as my mineral supplement for RO water. I know our water has a nice balance between all the important chemicals and trace elements and no product or concoction I could make would be as complete or as well balanced when considering the KH buffering and Mg content.

[MatsP]

As to the other two points:
1. Yes, I don't think either me or Darrel is suggesting you use the Kent Marine ingredients as such, and certainly not huge proportions of Salt - that is just what Kent Marine's RO Right contains. I use a product called TMC Re-Mineralize, and at least from my taste-buds, I'd say it doesn't contain any large proportion of NaCl. [I don't have any of the expensive machines that Darrel has access to - but I can tell NaCl by taste!].

2. Covered above.

3. Indeed - which is exactly why you want it. You would get bicarbonate from Calcium Carbonate when dissolved in water (in fact, calcium carbonate as such doesn't dissolve in water at all - only the bicarbonate form does, unless I've completely misunderstood things). If you have NO bicarbonate, your pH will be somewhere between 4.0 and 5.0, which I doubt you actually want. It only pushes TOWARDS 8.2, and if you use the right amount (aiming for a KH of around 3 -> pH of around 6.5-7), it will be fine.

Now, I would be the first to agree that getting the RIGHT MIX for these things will not be trivial...

--
Mats

[TwoTankAmin]

I just ordered a new API GH/KH test kit. My old one is not reliable.

Let me again say that I am talking about supplementing my tap water. It has a pH of just over 7, which is down from its long standing level of 7.4. The GH had tested out at 6dg and the KH at 5dg for many years. It is only over the past year that the parameters have changed. As best as I could guestimate without having had a TDS meter, I pegged my tap in the range of 100-120 ppm.

All of this allowed me to get some approximation of a dry season by skipping and minimizing water changes to allow the TDS to rise. Now I find I have under 80ppm out of my tap. I would bet when the test kit arrives that the GH is in the 4dg and KH the 2dg range.

So my goal here is to figure the simplest and most easily controlled method to raise my tap TDS to get dry season parameters. My tap makes it is easy to get rainy season ones. I do not want to raise my pH beyond a couple of tenths or a point at most.

calcium carbonate as such doesn't dissolve in water at all

If this is indeed the case then why would thekrib.com say to use it to raise GH and KH? Are you saying they have it completely wrong? My poking around shows it is just poorly soluble and the extent depends somewhat on the level of co2? I never took chemistry in school so I am a boob when it comes to all this stuff.

[apistomaster]

Twotank,
I would be over joyed if my tap water changed as your tap water did.
You are over thinking the "problem."

Your techniques intended to simulate the dry and wet seasons are merely just that; Simulations and what is the real basis that the change in seasons affects the timing of breeding Amazon basin fishes? Lots more fresh water and a more abundant food supplies for adults and fry. The actual water chemistry down there never deviates very much.
You should get the desired effect by keeping fish with a touch of benign neglect; make fewer and smaller water changes then abruptly step up your game and increase the frozen and live foods. You will achieve the desired results which is simply a change of conditions that stimulate the fishes breeding conditions.

All the plecos you breed may originated from soft, acid water but all can be bred in drastically harder and more alkaline water.
It isn't really possible to prove that your former methods were really any better than another alternative successful approach. I certainly can't prove why I have been able to breed my plecos in the past and at other times I can't even if they were very seasonal in the past, they have ignored past behaviors and have produced when I did not expect it. They have also failed to produce despite no change in my usual simulated breeding conditions.

No matter whether it is wild Discus or plecos, the benign neglect followed by intensively good care has been the most productive approach. People with really hard and alkaline water have it tougher but you have great water out of the tap. Your water chemistry is not the source of any problem you are currently trying to solve. Remove the water chemistry from your calculations and focus on what other factors are at play. You know that people like barbie and me have harder water than you yet between us we have bred quite the gamut of Loricariidae. Sometimes we have used RO water and sometimes we haven't. I have had every one of the species I have bred, breed in conditions I thought were fine and conditions I thought were unsuitable.
Man, I wish I had your tap water! Plecos are nothing compared to breeding Cardinals or Rummy Nose Tetras. These are fish which if the water is not very soft and acid their eggs don't have a snow ball's chance of hatching despite a mere 24 hour incubation period.
And it is incredibly difficult to provide their fry with a suitable first food and still not pollute their water. Plecos are far easier.

[Narwhal72]

An interesting topic. One might find more information here.
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/T0537E/T0537E02.htm

Check out tables 2.6 and 2.7. You will find the ionic concentrations for the mean of South America as well as different blackwater river basins. If you take the time to read the entire report you will see that there is also a significant difference in ionic concentration between dry and rainy seasons in river systems.

It is important to include sodium in any GH buffer. Sodium naturally is found in 2-4 times the concentration of Magnesium and only calcium is found in greater concentrations. Eliminating sodium would be making the water unnatural. Many sodium chloride salts also have the ability to raise GH without affecting pH or KH.

Calcium carbonate will add calcium which will raise GH but will also be adding carbonate to the system. This will raise the pH up beyond desired levels. It also has a much lower solubility than other calcium salts like calcium chloride.

But the really important thing to remember is that fish (especially river fish) are very adaptable to subtle changes in water chemistry and as long as nothing is extremely out of their normal range they will still thrive. That is of course assuming that the fish are properly fed and housed.

[MatsP]

Many sodium chloride salts also have the ability to raise GH without affecting pH or KH.

Huh? that doesn't make ANY sense. Chloride salts may well have this effect, but sodium does not in any way alter GH. It alters conductivity, but not hardness, because technically hardness is any two-valent (or higher) metal ion. Since sodium is a one-valent ion, it can not possibly affect hardess.

--
Mats

[PseudaSmart]

I hope anyone reading this thread does not lose sight of one simple thing, proceed with caution when trying something new, the results can be costly!

I gave up trying to tweak my water with home brews. I do it the simple way, 100% RO mixed to 'taste' (just kidding I use a meter)with RO right. I change the hardness as needed w/o problems. I know it is expensive but my well water is horrible and I have 1700 gallons of tanks to maintain. It is just easier for me. I have raised both Discus and Plecos this way.

One low tech suggestion that works in the winter is to put your tap water into a large tray or tub and let the water evaporate. This will maintain the ratio of minerals in your water and will increase the hardness. If you have a large tank it is not so pratical.

Good luck and be careful!
Jim

[TwoTankAmin]

Quick Update-

Did water changes on some tanks today. I had run a HOT magnum filled w/ crushed coral over night on just under 5 gals of water and it showed TDS of 96ppm up from 78ppm. To this bucket I added about 1 teaspoon of Epsom Salt and 1/16 teaspoon of baking soda. The result was TDS 129ppm but the pH shot up to 8.2.

I then put the coral filter on a 20 gal can of 78ppm tap and let it run while doing other stuff. I also added about a tablespoon of Epsom and a about an 1/8 a teaspoon of baking soda. Result was TDS about 106 and pH at 7.2.

Using a mix of the water from the two buckets I was able to raise most tanks 15-20 ppm and to keep one tank stable at 106ish. These tanks also have a small bag of crushed coral in a filter as well.

I tried the let things dirty approach which has served me so well for so long. It no longer works. It seems it no longer works because I have lost some of the hardness and KH in my water as well as a touch of the pH.

My biggest wish is to find a better way than using the crushed coral to up my hardness re calcium. TDS of 125-130 is fine with me if I can make it easily And I want to see if the 134 spawns make it if the water is in that range as well.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

I would be over joyed if my tap water changed as your tap water did. You are over thinking the "problem." Your techniques intended to simulate the dry and wet seasons are merely just that; Simulations and what is the real basis that the change in seasons affects the timing of breeding Amazon basin fishes? Lots more fresh water and a more abundant food supplies for adults and fry. The actual water chemistry down there never deviates very much.You should get the desired effect by keeping fish with a touch of benign neglect; make fewer and smaller water changes then abruptly step up your game and increase the frozen and live foods. You will achieve the desired results which is simply a change of conditions that stimulate the fishes breeding conditions.

I agree with Apistomaster and MatsP, your water is pretty good and I'd be quite happy to use it how it is.

Indeed - which is exactly why you want it. You would get bicarbonate from calcium carbonate when dissolved in water (in fact, calcium carbonate as such doesn't dissolve in water at all - only the bicarbonate form does, unless I've completely misunderstood things). If you have NO bicarbonate, your pH will be somewhere between 4.0 and 5.0, which I doubt you actually want. It only pushes TOWARDS 8.2, and if you use the right amount (aiming for a KH of around 3 -> pH of around 6.5-7), it will be fine

What we are trying to say is that you can add compounds to your water to achieve any parameter that you want, but this has potential complications, unless you fully understand these. It is almost always better to work with what you've got, and then look at the other issues that may be effecting your fish (like MatsP suggests).

Sodium naturally is found in 2-4 times the concentration of Magnesium and only calcium is found in greater concentrations. Eliminating sodium would be making the water unnatural.

I'll just do this one, this isn't relevant to most of S. America, the water is almost devoid of all cations (sodium, calcium, magnesium, potassium etc.), and any small amount of carbonates will have been entirely used up by the humic acids in the water (from fallen leaf litter).

Good link earlier in the post: <http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/T0537E/T0537E02.htm>

You can't really explain this without some chemistry, but I'll have a go:
Some compounds are relatively straightforward and will disassociate immediately (they are completely soluble) like NaCl (Na+ Cl- ions) (or MgSO4.7H2O) and they will raise the conductivity, and (dependent upon whether they are H+ ion acceptors or donors) alter the pH either up or down. Other compounds like CaCO3 are "buffers", where their solubility changes around a pH value with compounds able to go in and out of solution, but usually with some proportion of compound in the undissolved state.

The reservoir of carbonate buffering is the dKH, and that is why it is important.

These reactions e.g. NaCl disassociating to Na+ & Cl- is an example of an acid / base interaction, but we can look at a specific acid / base pair and the pairing that is probably most relevant to us is the reaction between CO2 and carbonates, this is slightly complicated by the disassociation into bicarbonate and carbonate, but starts with:

CO2 dissolving to form carbonic acid (H2CO3):

CO2 + H2O is in equilibrium with H2CO3.

You can drive the equation in either direction by adding either CO2 or a source of carbonates:

CO32− +2 H2O ↔ HCO3− + H2O + OH− ↔ H2CO3 +2 OH−
&
H2CO3 +2 H2O ↔ HCO3− + H3O+ + H2O ↔ CO32− +2 H3O+

In very hard carbonate rich water (water with a high dKH "K(c)arbonate Hardness") you have a large supply of carbonate, this is "buffering", the potential to neutralise acids (or technically to accept H+ ions). The dKH is from the carbon dioxide (CO2, but dissolved as H2CO3 in rainwater) reacting with limestone (calcium carbonate (CaCO3)) to form soluble calcium bicarbonate (Ca(HCO3)2) and giving you a large reserve of carbonate buffering in the water.

cheers Darrel

[Narwhal72]

my mistake Mats. I sometimes confuse GH with TDS. What I meant to say is that sodium increases TDS without affecting pH.

[MatsP]

Glad we sorted that out (and I'm not going mad! ;) [any more than usual at least!])

--
Mats

[Sue Foster]

Mt. Kisco, if I remember right just above NYC a bit. I'm an escaped NYer. It's a big enough town where you might find water reports online or at least nearby towns.

poof! Here it is....

http://www.mountkisco.org/Pages/MtKisco ... r/2004.pdf

and a more recent one from the county

http://www.westchestergov.com/planningd ... itions.pdf

I have really, really soft water. Like dissolve snails and shrimp within days soft. I use an organic garden lime, Espoma brand to add to the water. Outside in the garden I use cheaper stuff but for the tanks I use this brand because the organic labeling provides some safeguards as far as heavy metal contamination. It also dissolves a little faster than the $4 for 80lb garden lime.

There is a breakdown of just what is in it on the back of the bag. Lots cheaper than buying ready made stuff. It can be found at most garden centers and walmart.

http://s144.photobucket.com/albums/r182 ... t=lime.jpg

[MatsP]

Outside in the garden I use cheaper stuff but for the tanks I use this brand because the organic labeling provides some safeguards as far as heavy metal contamination. It also dissolves a little faster than the $4 for 80lb garden lime.

I'm not familiar with this product, but I'm curious as to what these guarantees are - and more importantly, what indications there are that other products aren't just as good.

The fact that it dissolves better is clearly a good thing, so that in itself may be a good reason to use this particular product.

--
Mats

[Sue Foster]

The USDA protects the word organic and actually defines what is and isn't to the point where it is silly.
For example I have a very large vegetable garden. In good years I will sell the excess vegetables in front of the house. I can't technically say the vegetables are organic because I am not organically certified.I use no chemical fertilizers or pesticides. Just lime which is allowed and manures from my horses and poultry. As far as most people are concerned that's organic. But legally I can't post them that way.
They come and check and make you pay for it. So a lot of small farms started saying things were grown "naturally" now the USDA is trying to take control of that word too. I've noticed some of the local farms now advertising their produce as "no weird stuff used".

Sore spot.
Our USDA bigwigs are largely from the industrial agriculture giants like Monsanto and Cargill. Slowly choking the small farm under peoples noses. Enough of that! Nothing to do with fish.

Anyway one good thing about it is if a product is mass marketed with the word organic on it they are watched closely for heavy metals and other pollutants you wouldn't want.

It's a glorious day! I'm stepping away from this computer and into the real world.

[apistomaster]

I have had many L134 spawns when the breeding tank was allowed to be replaced gradually with tap water to facilitate removing their accumulated fry to 40 breeders filled with tap water.(My broods typically range between 25 and 35 fry). At these times, instead of the water TDS being below 100 ppm it was as high as 340 ppm. When L134 are in their spawning season, water quality matters far more than the hardness and pH.
Getting L134 in the mood is what is the mysterious and hard part. I still do not have a full understanding of exactly what it take to induce them to spawn despite having raised well over 700 of them. I don't know why many who have bred L134 only get 5 or so fry. I only had 3 fry from one spawn that happened to occur in the winter when they normally have not spawned for me.

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- you folks seem to be missing some of the main issues.

Sue- thanks for the information, but we are on our own well. So none of it is really relevant.

Larry- my problem is not getting spawns from the 134, its been getting them to survive. None of 6 spawns has made it a day into free swimming yet. There is also the issue with the deformed contradens. I think these are both TDS related.

Finally, there is the fact that for many years almost anything would spawn in my tanks. Now its all pretty much stopped. Again I think its the TDS.

My take is that the TDS drop in my tap is likely from a lack of calcium specifically though not exclusively. Wgich is what got me to the Calcium Carbonate as a way to deal with things. That and it was what the FINS site suggested.

The same vendor for the Calcium Carbonate also offers Calcium Chloride http://www.amazon.com/Calcium-Chloride- ... 096&sr=1-1

I need to try one of the two. I just wonder why FINS said use the Carbonate rather than the Chloride?

[racoll]

I just wonder why FINS said use the Carbonate rather than the Chloride?

Carbonates should change the alkalinity (KH), while chloride won't.

[TwoTankAmin]

racoll- Thanks for explaining that. I will wait to decide what to try until the GH/KH kit arrives. Using them in conjunction w/ the TDS meter should give me a better idea of where things stand.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Carbonates should change the alkalinity (KH), while chloride won't.

This is true, another reason is that calcium chloride is much more soluble than calcium carbonate as well.
I'm not convinced that this is a calcium, TDS, dKH/dGH or pH issue. Even if it is a calcium issue, the crushed coral (the more soluble aragonite form of CaCO3) should cover this and guard against acidosis, due to the increase in dKH from the dissolved HCO3- ions. Alternatively either of these mixes will work:

You can make your own mix using Bicarbonate of Soda and CaCO3 in the right proportions, and possibly some MgSO4 & "I'd use calcium chloride, "Epsom Salts" (magnesium sulphate heptahydrate) and potassium bicarbonate".

After some thought about your fry deaths, I would be tempted to use a water conditioner that contains EDTA(as long as your water isn't iron rich), or an HMA filter, as I think this may be a heavy metal issue. Another possibility would be traces of pesticides in the water (possibly synthetic pyrethroid or organo-phosphate insecticides), again an HMA filter would eliminate these.

Calcium solubility.
CaCl2 - 74.5 g/100mL (20°C)
CaCO3 - 0.00015 mol/L (25°C) (CaCO3 = 100.1g in 1 litre = molar so approx. 0.0015g/mL), although calcium bicarbonate - Ca(HCO3)2 - 16.6 g/100 mL (20°C) is more soluble.

cheers Darrel