panaque nigro spawning ??

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by grokefish »

Oh my I completely forgot how much I love these fish since my 8yr old one died, off to the LFS me thinks.......

On topic, I dont think that is territorial behaviour, I thought it was at first but it's just not nasty enough.

My two panaques nigro and blue eyed had such violent battles I had to give the blue eye to friend.
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Firestorming »

I read an online "account" of a nigrolineatus spawn.

Apparently the fish hollowed out a nest in dense collapsed val or some similar plant.

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... naque.html
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by bigamefish »

@grokefish
Wow I wish I was your friend! It isnt every day that you just get a panaque cochliodon
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by ElTofi »

matthewfaulkner wrote:
Image

Image
@Matt :

and you dare telling me you're envious of my fishes and tank ? :d I AM the one who should be envious about such a beauty and mature Panaque... Let's wait a 2-3 years and we'll have a talk, you and me, Matt :))
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by rob rensen »

awesome Panaque !! Great fish
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by MatsP »

Firestorming wrote:I read an online "account" of a nigrolineatus spawn.

Apparently the fish hollowed out a nest in dense collapsed val or some similar plant.

http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/aq ... naque.html
There are several people who have shown doubt that this is ACTUALLY a large Panaque spawn.

I heard someone say they have bred "Royal pleco" at a "Open day" at Maidenehead aquatics. I didn't actually meet the claimant myself.

I would be very surprised if these fish don't lay eggs on/in wood.

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by rob rensen »

MatsP wrote:[[/

T

I would be very surprised if these fish don't lay eggs on/in wood.

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I agree....we'll wait and see what happens
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Firestorming »

I met a guy here (Sydney) who went on a collecting trip to the Amazon. Anything interesting he caught went to the US and Europe with other guys on his trip as we cant bring anything in. One of the things they caught was a royal type panaque in reasonable numbers on wood and on any fallen branches, usually between 2-4cm. When he asked the local guide he told him that he had found adults with many young in soft wood holes and around tree roots. I will try to track him down and see if I can get any more info. He is a cichlid guy though so...... /:)
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Acanthicus »

Realized, that the youngster in the picture is a common Ancistrus? And the shown specimens are really very small, too small I guess.
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by ElTofi »

there had been a debate about this article... and most of the readers came to the same conclusion as Acanthicus...

Panaque too small to breed...
Fry looks very similar to Ancistrus fry
No decent quality picture to illustrate the "pseudo" spawning

When I first read this article, a few years ago, I must admit my heart beagan to beat faster... and then... /:)
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by ElTofi »

Firestorming wrote:I met a guy here (Sydney) who went on a collecting trip to the Amazon. Anything interesting he caught went to the US and Europe with other guys on his trip as we cant bring anything in. One of the things they caught was a royal type panaque in reasonable numbers on wood and on any fallen branches, usually between 2-4cm. When he asked the local guide he told him that he had found adults with many young in soft wood holes and around tree roots. I will try to track him down and see if I can get any more info. He is a cichlid guy though so...... /:)
heard about this version too... and about another saying that Panaque could possibly have migration spawning behaviour... based on the fact that most little Panaque are found far away from the places of the big ones...

a lot of theories, but nothing really checked...
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Barbie »

When I said cave, I meant enclosed area for the male to protect the eggs, not particularly a stonework type of cave. Sorry I was unclear. With their shape, I would be quite shocked to find that the male does not find an area he can defend for spawning.

Years ago I saw an easily 18" Royal (I have no idea which variety) at a shop in Wichita, KS. I realize they do not need to reach anything near their adult size to spawn, but I do think most spawning attempts are going to require large fish and there just hasn't been many people with groups of these fish in the size range necessary for success until very recently, has there?

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by rob rensen »

We'll just wait and see what happens....I have 7 Nigro's in a 2.50 tank with a lot of wood, a lot of current (8.000 ltr/hour).

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by ElTofi »

Barbie wrote:...I do think most spawning attempts are going to require large fish and there just hasn't been many people with groups of these fish in the size range necessary for success until very recently, has there?
Barbie
I'm getting close to... with the 6 fishes group of L191, between 16 and 22 cm, it won't be too long (maybe one year) to get to "maturity size"... Maybe I'm listening too much my dreams, but I think fishes of around 30 cm should be mature enough to attempt a spawning, shouldn't they ?

and I have another group of 4 Panaque schaeferi, smaller but still 15 cm TL, which could be candidates to spawning within the next 2 years...

the international "Panaque spawning" race has begun a few months ago :-BD ... several runners on the start... let's see what will happen these next months...

@Rob Rensen : good luck with your group and sorry for flooding your topic...
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by rob rensen »

It doesn't matter Ettofi.... :d
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by rob rensen »

About the article....I have also my doubts. The nigro's on the picture are very small , I think too small to breed
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by jac »

ElTofi wrote:
Firestorming wrote:I met a guy here (Sydney) who went on a collecting trip to the Amazon. Anything interesting he caught went to the US and Europe with other guys on his trip as we cant bring anything in. One of the things they caught was a royal type panaque in reasonable numbers on wood and on any fallen branches, usually between 2-4cm. When he asked the local guide he told him that he had found adults with many young in soft wood holes and around tree roots. I will try to track him down and see if I can get any more info. He is a cichlid guy though so...... /:)
heard about this version too... and about another saying that Panaque could possibly have migration spawning behaviour... based on the fact that most little Panaque are found far away from the places of the big ones...

a lot of theories, but nothing really checked...
I have read/heard this too. Wasn't it at the Lnumber days in Hannover?
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by HaakonH »

This may be nothing but a rumour too, but I heard/read somewhere that Royals are being bred at some farms in Asia. The climate there allows the farmers to keep their fish in large outdoor pools. The story is that they used large, more elongate containers where they created enough water flow to simulate riverine conditions as opposed to more stagnant ones like in other breeding pools. They added large chunks of wood which the Royals chewed on, creating cavities where eggs were laid.

Has anyone here received Royals from Asian suppliers?

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by nvcichlids »

my LFS has gotten some tiny royals from an asian supplier in the past year. I would say tiny being maybe 2" TL. I don't recall the supplier, but they havent ordered from them again as they lost a lot of fish in that order.
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by dw1305 »

Hi all,
They added large chunks of wood which the Royals chewed on, creating cavities where eggs were laid.
That would definitely be my suggestion, I save all my large holey wood for a Parrot breeder for exactly this reason. Something like a palm trunk would naturally form a circular depression as it decayed, and this would give an opening that the male could work on.

cheers Darrel
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Acanthicus »

ElTofi wrote:
Firestorming wrote: heard about this version too... and about another saying that Panaque could possibly have migration spawning behaviour... based on the fact that most little Panaque are found far away from the places of the big ones...

a lot of theories, but nothing really checked...

I investigated several months of field operation in my theory that Cochliodon migrate in the upper riverpart to spawn. I also wrote about it in DATZ, and the answer is: Yes, they do migrate. So, I am quite sure Panaque do as well.

The idea with elongated containers is really a good one, but unfortunately not practicable here.


cheers,
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by matthewfaulkner »

Here's a picture showing some sexual characteristics. You can sort of see the chubby pelvic/ventral fins and the odontodes along the body. Do you think this points to a male fish?

Image
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Jools »

I'm not sure body odontodes point to gender in (by which I mean Panaque not Panaqolus and Scobinancistrus). The genital papillae seems blunt and that points to a female... I think with these guys a picture of that is the best way to tell. I am not sure of the rest.

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by MatsP »

Acanthicus wrote:Yes, they do migrate. So, I am quite sure Panaque do as well.
Does this also mean that they spawn in the middle/late part of the rainy season when water levels are at their highest? One could expect so...
The idea with elongated containers is really a good one, but unfortunately not practicable here.
Unless you can make a very large, and quite long "river" running into the tank?

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by matthewfaulkner »

Jools wrote:I'm not sure body odontodes point to gender in (by which I mean Panaque not Panaqolus and Scobinancistrus). The genital papillae seems blunt and that points to a female... I think with these guys a picture of that is the best way to tell. I am not sure of the rest.

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I agree that the body odontodes are probably inconclusive, as it seems that these fish tend to have them as a prominent feature anyway. What do you think about the pelvic/ventral fins? It's my understanding that enlarged fins point towards a male. The genital papillae is blunt and seems to pulsate a lot with a peristalsis like movement. I don't know whether that's normal or just because the fish was pooing at the time.

I hope more people can post similar pictures so we can see any similarities/differences.

Image

Image

And although not related to the topic, I thought I'd share his/her wood gnashers.

Image
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by ElTofi »

matthewfaulkner wrote:And although not related to the topic, I thought I'd share his/her wood gnashers.

Image
Awesome ! really awesome ! Thanks for sharing... :-BD
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by pleco_breeder »

Enlarged pelvic fins does point to male in a lot of species. I don't know if this holds true in Panaque.

Likewise, the peristaltic contractions tends to point to male. This is only an observation I've made, but it seems the genitalia of females is usually too bulbous to be able to note if any movement is taking place. I see it in males of most plecos rather often, but don't recall ever noting it on a known female. I don't think it's sexually related, but something that seems to happen quite a bit.

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Scleropages »

MatsP wrote:Unless you can make a very large, and quite long "river" running into the tank?
Or, unless you live in southern Florida and are designing your own pond. Sounds like a project for Viktor!
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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by MatsP »

Scleropages wrote:Or, unless you live in southern Florida and are designing your own pond. Sounds like a project for Viktor!
Yes, of course in (sub-)tropical regions, you could do this as well.

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Re: panaque nigro spawning ??

Post by Jools »

Pectoral fins enlarging in Panaque I am not sure about, I come to that from my experience with which have the most spiny thick rayed females I have seen.

However, those ventral fins look really interesting. Crazy notion - what if these guys spawn like ...

Jools
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