False L144 vs L144

o_beas · Post by **o_beas** » 07 Oct 2014, 23:21

Hello my name is Octavio. I'm new to this site and have just started to venture into the world of freshwater aquariums (never owned one in my life but wanted to start it as a hobby)!! I'm interested in buying nothing but bottom dweller type fish, in specific catfish.

Reason for my post is because I have a chance to buy some L144 plecos from a breeder and wanted to know the difference between an L144 and the False L144?

Can anyone on here help me figure out how to distinguish the difference? Some are saying that one has black eyes and the other doesn't but when I look online it seems as though all of them have black eyes..

Anyways!! If someone could help me I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks for all your time!!

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 07 Oct 2014, 23:41

It's easy to tell them apart.

Did you buy them directly from German hobbyist breeders who have a known record of provenance that the fishes descended directly from a very small number of wild-caught Paraguayan stock animals?

---> "Yes": Congratulations, your fish is real .

---> "No": Your fish is the yellow colour form of the .

P.S. welcome to the site Octavio

o_beas · Post by **o_beas** » 08 Oct 2014, 04:40

I found out that these are Common Albino Red Eye Brittlenose Catfish.

Thanks for your help RO!!

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 08 Oct 2014, 05:11

They are neither or the "false L144" common bristlenose phenotype. They are albino common bristlenose, so are therefore the same species as "false L144", but they have a slightly different colour mutation.

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 09 Oct 2014, 19:54

Doesn't have the false L144 black eyes instead of blue eyes for the real one ?

aquariumhobbyist · Post by **aquariumhobbyist** » 10 Oct 2014, 14:47

CoryfanAad wrote:Doesn't have the false L144 black eyes instead of blue eyes for the real one ?

The false L144, aka Ancistrus sp. (4), differes from the Albino variant with the lack of the red eye typically associated with albinism, as well as a lack of pattern coloration on the fins as well as the body that is present on the albino BN pleco.

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 10 Oct 2014, 18:55

aquariumhobbyist wrote:
CoryfanAad wrote:Doesn't have the false L144 black eyes instead of blue eyes for the real one ?
The false L144, aka Ancistrus sp. (4), differes from the Albino variant with the lack of the red eye typically associated with albinism, as well as a lack of pattern coloration on the fins as well as the body that is present on the albino BN pleco.

thanks but I know that, and know the difference between the L144 and the albino. There are two different strains to my believe without red eyes. One with blue eyes (mine and the true L144) and another with black eyes (the false L144 to my believe) Regards Aad

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 10 Oct 2014, 18:57

Besides of that there seem to be two ore more strains of albinos. A "yellowish" one with red eyes and a more whitish / pink strain with red eyes. The first is often sold and mislabeled as L144

o_beas · Post by **o_beas** » 10 Oct 2014, 20:37

Just so you know the breeder had the ones with blue eyes as well but I still don't think they were L144.

but what do I know lol thanks for the input guys

Octavio

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 10 Oct 2014, 20:49

Always good to try to keep in mind that we base all of our understanding of L144 from one single photograph of one single fish. It really was a terrible idea to give that fish an L number.

Post by **Borbi** » 11 Oct 2014, 07:45

Hi,

Did you buy them directly from German hobbyist breeders who have a known record of provenance that the fishes descended directly from a very small number of wild-caught Paraguayan stock animals?

---> "Yes": Congratulations, your fish is real L144.

---> "No": Your fish is the yellow colour form of the common bristlenose catfish.

Well, in this case even that won´t help, because there appear to be no real L144 available anymore (there might be one or two hobbyists remaining that still have them, but basically all Germans have the xanthoristic variant of the common bristlenose by now, and we have come to call them Ancistrus sp. "Yellow-Black Eye"). They are being sold as L144 everywhere.

Eye coloration does not distinguish L144 from the xanthoristic variant of the common bristlenose (you can make both of them have either blue or black eyes depending on the lighting conditions while taking pictures).
The real L144 is the xanthoristic variant of a species from Paraguay (probably Ancistrus sp. "Rio Paraguay") and is supposed to be nowhere near as colorful as the common variant (which is why the xanthoristic variant of the common bristlenose replaced them).
I wrote up a somewhat detailed history of L144 somewhere on this forum a while back, but I can´t seem to find it right now..

Cheers,
Sandor

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 11 Oct 2014, 15:20

Thanks Sandor. Only think it isn't the light that causes black or blue eyes. My 2 females do have blue eyes, but I've seen "normal" black eyes elsewhere.

Thanks for explaining the "Rio Paraquay" - story. You're the first to me that uses the word Xanthoristic in english (I've a yellow peppered Cory with blue eyes) Could the black eyed one be a Leucistic variaty? Regards Aad

Quite interesting !!

Post by **Borbi** » 12 Oct 2014, 08:32

Hi,

well, I am not a biologist, so perhaps a geneticist can better explain (or perhaps even explain why my explanation is wrong).
And after looking it up again, I realize that the english word is actually xanthism..

Those are different kinds of mutations: leucistic individuals do not have melanocytes at all (and thus tend to be white), while xanthistic individuals lack in melanine production, while the xanthophores (producing ceratines) are still functioning at normal levels, thus making the individual yellowish (even reddish; see the "Super-Red" variety).

Thus, a leucistic form should actually be white (see Astyanax jordani for example), while xanthistic forms are yellow.
So from that I do not believe that the black eyed varieties are leucistic, they probably are xanthistic as well (but perhaps with a different form of genetic defect).

With respect to eye colors: I wasn´t suggesting that it is only light that causes blue eyes, and you are right, there indeed are black as well as blue eyes in different forms. What I was hinting at is the fact that a fish with black eyes can appear to have blue eyes in a picture under certain lighting conditions (this is probably not general: not every fish will have blue eyes on pictures under certain conditions).
This means (and this is the most important point I was trying to make with it) that just because a fish has blue eyes on a picture does not automatically mean that it absolutely needs to have blue eyes in real life to fit the bill.

Cheers,
Sandor

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 12 Oct 2014, 11:43

Borbi wrote:Hi,

well, I am not a biologist, so perhaps a geneticist can better explain (or perhaps even explain why my explanation is wrong).
And after looking it up again, I realize that the english word is actually xanthism..

Those are different kinds of mutations: leucistic individuals do not have melanocytes at all (and thus tend to be white), while xanthistic individuals lack in melanine production, while the xanthophores (producing ceratines) are still functioning at normal levels, thus making the individual yellowish (even reddish; see the "Super-Red" variety).

Thus, a leucistic form should actually be white (see Astyanax jordani for example), while xanthistic forms are yellow.
So from that I do not believe that the black eyed varieties are leucistic, they probably are xanthistic as well (but perhaps with a different form of genetic defect).

With respect to eye colors: I wasn´t suggesting that it is only light that causes blue eyes, and you are right, there indeed are black as well as blue eyes in different forms. What I was hinting at is the fact that a fish with black eyes can appear to have blue eyes in a picture under certain lighting conditions (this is probably not general: not every fish will have blue eyes on pictures under certain conditions).
This means (and this is the most important point I was trying to make with it) that just because a fish has blue eyes on a picture does not automatically mean that it absolutely needs to have blue eyes in real life to fit the bill.

Cheers,
Sandor

Thanks again !! A pic of my Peppered Cory

kribensislover · Post by **kribensislover** » 15 Oct 2014, 03:47

Beautiful [emoji7]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mattcham · Post by **mattcham** » 15 Oct 2014, 19:31

CoryfanAad wrote: Thanks again !! A pic of my Peppered Cory

Nice cory. Does that cory have black or red eyes? Also, is that cory yellow or white bodied in real life?
Lighting can make white fish look yellow.

Speaking of body color, I know that my albino BN plecos can change body color depending on:
1) Diet - foods that have standard red color enhancers (like Tetra Min Color) can make my white albinos turn yellowish gold.
2) Emotion - when they are ill or frightened (trying to catch them with a net) they can go from yellow gold to snow white.

You can see here some blue eyed bn pleco, some are white, some are yellow (these are not my fish and not my photo):
http://www.angelsplus.com/FishBristlenoseBE.htm

CoryfanAad · Post by **CoryfanAad** » 15 Oct 2014, 19:38

mattcham wrote:
CoryfanAad wrote: Thanks again !! A pic of my Peppered Cory
Nice cory. Does that cory have black or red eyes? Also, is that cory yellow or white bodied in real life?
Lighting can make white fish look yellow.

Speaking of body color, I know that my albino BN plecos can change body color depending on:
1) Diet - foods that have standard red color enhancers (like Tetra Min Color) can make my white albinos turn yellowish gold.
2) Emotion - when they are ill or frightened (trying to catch them with a net) they can go from yellow gold to snow white.

You can see here some blue eyed bn pleco, some are white, some are yellow (these are not my fish and not my photo):
http://www.angelsplus.com/FishBristlenoseBE.htm

It is yellow with blue / black eyes : defo not an albino !! I adopted it some years ago, but never seen a Cory alike !!

I know BN's can change color, but as said there seem to be albinos sold as L144 (yellow / gold) and a "real" albino that is whitish / pinkish. The first ones are sold al lot overhere (Holland), at the UK forum I often see the second ones.

Regards, Aad

A better pic

mattcham · Post by **mattcham** » 15 Oct 2014, 22:57

Wow, that's a really nice Cory. Are you trying to breed it?

In the USA we have a web site called AquaBid which is ebay for fish and all of the L144 from different vendors look nothing alike. I must have come across 10 or more "L144" varieties in the past year. The only thing that they all have in common is blue or black eyes with white or yellow body. The body shapes, color and facial appearances are so different. Nobody knows where they came from...