Blue eye Panaque water temp/real panaque suttonorum?

[7Pete]

Hi,

Is it safe to keep blue eye panaque in +31 celsius water? Most plecos are from Brazil Amazon basin and used to high temps but blue eye is from Colombia or Venezuela. I do know that most fish tolerate higher temps than recommended if oxygen saturation is at "max". Which makes me think there is no problem.

Greetings

Petri O.

[Jools]

I've never kept them, but if I did, I wouldn't keep them that warm. Why would you if you don't need to, it just adds risk and expense.



Jools

[7Pete]

I wouldn't consider it either, but i would like to put it to same tank with other plecos and nowadays I have discus too.

Here are blue eye and discus in same tank although it isn't probably the best comparison and ideal living conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDBIRueZds

[Jools]

it isn't probably the best comparison and ideal living conditions.

Indeed. If you look far enough on the internet, you'll find anything is possible. That is a far cry from what is best or even acceptable to serious aquarists.

In terms of keeping them with discus the other problem you've got is they shouldn't eat too much food that you put in for discus but they will. If you want to keep them with high bodied flat fishes, look into non-pirhana

Serrasalmidae

.

Jools

[7Pete]

Yes, discus food isn't good in long term, but I wouldn't be too afraid of that. I think I have enough experience with my other panaques. Still i will pay attention for this matter if discus and blue eye panaque in even possible to keep together in terms of water temperature. I'm more of a earth eater cichlid guy than non-piranha. Both are quite greedy so discus is better if kept together with plecos.

I will first try +28 and see how it goes with the discus and blue eye, but obviously they are not the best tank mates and I will set another tank for discus or so later. I got a good deal with the blue eye so I had no time to do things in "proper way".

[Kostas]

Blue eyes like it cooler, 24-26C is warm enough for them to be in breeding mood. L27 "Araguaia" on the other hand like it at 30+C

[7Pete]

My fish is Panaque Suttonorum.

From L-welse website: T:25-29 C, pH:5.5-7.5
http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... 780/cat/42

[Jools]

My fish is Panaque Suttonorum.

From L-welse website: T:25-29 C, pH:5.5-7.5
http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showp ... 780/cat/42

Are you sure?
From PlanetCatfish website:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/shanesworl ... cle_id=376

Jools

[7Pete]

[7Pete]

Yes BES, based on body odontodes and head shape.

http://www.plecoplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16163

[7Pete]

Here video which shows respiratory rate. Water ~+28 celsius.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA9faljHRp8

[Jools]

The useful features you linked to (quoted below) help tell apart two species, what if there are three or more?

Supraoccipital hump -

Panaque cochliodon

- present
Supraoccipital hump -

Panaque suttonorum

- absent

Maxillary barbel - Panaque cochliodon - short
Maxillary barbel - Panaque suttonorum - long

Adult caudal fin shape - Panaque cochliodon - lunate
Adult caudal fin shape - Panaque suttonorum - lunate or forked

Posterior fin reach of pelvic fin spine - Panaque cochliodon - beyond posterior insertion of anal fin
Posterior fin reach of pelvic fin spine - Panaque suttonorum - between anterior and posterior insertion of anal fin

In my view, your fish is

Panaque cf_cochliodon`upper_magdalena`

. If you search the forum, there is a lot of info on this. This species is absent from Nathan Lujan's excellent paper on Panaque, so it is unsafe to identify it as a valid species.

Let me summarise 30 years of blue eyed plecos:

Panaque cf_cochliodon`upper_magdalena`

is the "species" common in the 80s/90s, black when young, strong blue eyes, long head. It was sold for £ or $20 a fish as it was possible to export in numbers and was shipped over road to Bogota and to the world. It doesn't make financial, logistical or practical sense all these fishes were collected in the Maracaibo basin especially at that time. That they stopped being exported was either due to overfishing/habitat degradation (unlikely) or civil war (likely).

Panaque cochliodon

was cleverly "rediscovered" a decade or so after people starting wondering what had happened to these beautiful fishes. As collectors went further afield and the geopolitical map of Columbia changed, we saw some high value ($/£500) blue eyed plecos exported out of Bogota. These were lighter, dome headed, the higher cost was because they were adult fishes (which as easier to trap, but lower yeild) and were flown into Bogota. It appears to be a lower Magdalena species typically collected in Cauca state. They were never seen at a small size.

Panaque suttonorum

may never have been exported for the aquarium trade, if they did they'd be high end fishes exported by "go there, find it, export some" one off expeditions. I think it is restricted to the rivers that flow into the Maracaibo basin, there are at least two perhaps three dusky Panaque from that region which is heavily under threat from man's activities - it is not impossible all three "species" mentioned here are or were present in the Maracaibo. The only verified pictures I have show a fish with a white belly and black odontodes. The original description (I have it, and must have read it 100 times or more) is reworded on the cat-elog species page. Young fish have a white band around the caudal peduncle like

L191

. Isbrucker put this species name to the upper Magdalena fish when he was shown live examples of it at a CAGB event in London in the 80's. I've spoken with people in that conversation, there was no discussion of where it came from other than "Colombia". Sands was also in that conversation, and used the name in his seminal CotW books which is where the two things got muddled for 30+ years.




Jools

[7Pete]

Thank you for your info. This is an interesting matter. Yes I don't know which river my fish was collected and I don't really know the real name of the fish, but my fish doesn't look like the ones that are "said" to be Upper Magdalena panaque cochilodon's.

German importer: "Hi, we have imported them directly from Venezuela, so there is a chance that they are P. suttonorum."

That is all what I know about my fish. It's now 28 cm.

[7Pete]

Hi,

I have been keeping my blue eye in average 29 celsius water almost an year and there hasn't been any issues. Eating very well Novo Pleco XL tablets and very small quantities of other foods.

I will add pictures later. Interesting detail is that it dropped all it's brownish whiskers and grew new "beautiful" white/light grey whiskers back. Also pectoral fins have longer white odontodes. I have heard that males drop their "whiskers" sometimes and females do not, but i don't have any experience about that or know if it's a fact.

[7Pete]

Some pictures.

1st piece. Old brownish whiskers.

1st. New whiskers.

[7Pete]

I have now two pieces. These both panaques are from the same group of four fish that were exported from Venezuela to Germany. Both are about 30 cm long.

2nd piece:

This 2nd piece has longer whiskers and pectoral fin odontodes. Genital papillae looks also rounder. Could it be male? Odontodes is pectoral fins were damaged during the shipping and only few longer ones were left.

1st piece genital papillae:

[pleco_breeder]

Based upon genital papillae I would say you have a pair.

Larry Vires

[bekateen]

Very nice specimens!

Cheers, Eric

[Jobro]

Stunning fish, indeed!

Btw, Diskus do not need high water temps like that. 25-26°C is fine, if you refrain from feeding them bad foods... meaning any sort of meat/chicken/pork... They grow and are healthy in colder water if you feed them appropriate. No idea what idiot came up with the nonsense that diskus would need meat -.- they can't even diggest it correctly and get stomach problems from it, if the water temp is not very high. That's where the rumours that they need hot water comes from. Not from the fish's biotope, it's from the food suppliers...

[Shane]

German importer: "Hi, we have imported them directly from Venezuela, so there is a chance that they are P. suttonorum."


So Pete there is an obvious issue here. It has been illegal to export any wildlife from Venezuela for 30 years. Fish are illegally exported from Venezuela, but this happens mainly down in the south where the Orinoco forms the border and Colombian collectors can enter sparsely populated areas and get fish back to Purto Carreno and eventually to Bogota for export. There have been crossings up north from Colombia into Venezuela to collect fishes, but as Jools noted these have been one off trips by American and European hobbyists.
-Shane

[7Pete]

Thank you all for interest.

Jobro thanks. Good to know. I only feed discus with "dry" foods and they have seem to be okay for an year.

Shane: Yes it's quite well known that wildlife export is illegal in Venezuela and I have wondered German importers statement too. What ever and where these fish came from they don't look like ones from the upper Magdalena river. These fish seem to be the another "species" than panaque cochliodon as we can see from the pictures.

[7Pete]

Got a decent pic of my female specimen. Loving the blue body color.

[Jobro]

Stunning fish! really nice picture!

The size of this snail is insane xD