"Common pleco" popeye, feeding, and other issues

[fat meloe!]

Hello Planet Catfish, before I type in all the data regarding pH, tankmates, etc. I will ask some questions that probably do not need this data, since typing it in is time consuming. If it turns out they do, please note so. Edit: rapid responses are highly appreciated, because of the fish's unpleasant circumstances. I will introduce its history in the next post.

1. Over the weekend I finally got the starving fish to eat a piece of carrot for several hours, since the yellow koi (I know koi are not ideal tankmates) steals the algae wafers and mouth them until they become small enough to swallow. Dumping wafers behind plants or in the pleco cave is useless, and so is nightfeeding (Goldfish/koi will do anything for their food!). Although all koi lose interest in the carrot chunks (but not ridiculously long julienned salad carrots, which are eaten like noodles, or ridiculously big blanched vegetable leaves, swallowed whole), the yellow one knows how to swallow wafers. Any ideas for feeding the wafers? Handfeeding also worked for a previous common pleco, which has now died from disease, but only with instantly swallowable foods like tetra crisps and not wafers. The current one seems to ignore hands, will train it in future.

2. Some internet sites say "fresh vegs once a week". Is fresh vegs every day a good temporary food until I find a way to successfully feed wafers, and are there sources (internet, book, etc) to back up your experience? Just a few days.

3. If I resort to smashing wafers into insta-swallowable chunks for hand feeding, how much do I give, and are there sources to back up your experience? Plecos can insta-swallow much faster than they can rasp, and so the "feeding plecos part 1" article (feed as much as they eat in a night) and the package directions do not apply.

4. Apparently, fish "pacing" up and down against glass (not food-begging related) is known as glass surfing and is a sign of stress, according to posts from other forum websites when this is googled, as well as a chain-store website rather vaguely (Warning signs: If fish shows frantic swimming behavior). I have seen this frantic behavior in stores with bad fishkeeping, but even the video of

Tridensimilis brevis

by planetcatfish ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJcwuAhYE2E ) shows this. I know it may have multiple causes, but does anyone have reliable sources of info on this (Jools counts as a reliable source)?

5. Automatic gravel vacuums keep the bottom feces-free, depending on brand/type, right? And do they work when there is no gravel? (Researching this as I wait for a reply)

And yes, I know commons get really big (50/60 gallon tank, will plan to remove when it is too large), are not hypostomus usually, and that toilet flushing is a bad idea, as well as some other general fish welfare info, but if you have any comments about this sort of thing it is better to post than not to, even if you fear I already know it.

Stay tuned for the ph, gallons, filtration, pics, etc.
And this list may be updated as I think of more ?s, stay tuned for edits

[Jools]

The main issue is the koi, if the fish is staving, step one is remove the koi or introduce a tank divider.

Jools

[fat meloe!]

Oh dear, this was exactly the answer I didn't want. It just goes to show that people still may have a hard time helping you if you don't provide all the info (like not having any quarantine tank to dump the pleco into)! What things can be used as nontoxic quarantine tanks? I swear the info-dump will get here in a day or three!

[Jools]

Large storage tub will work, for the koi. Moving the weaker fish isn't the better option. If a common pleco isn't eating then there is something significantly wrong mostly likely with conditions.

I don't think people want an dense text "info dump" but the number, size of koi, the size of the tank, the feeding regime, the size of the plecos and the water parameters would help.

Jools

[fat meloe!]

If a common pleco isn't eating then there is something significantly wrong mostly likely with conditions.

There is a major difference between having no appetite, and realizing your cousin ate all the ice cream from the freezer! The fish eats, but it competes poorly with its hungry tankmates.

I don't think people want an dense text "info dump" but the number, size of koi, the size of the tank, the feeding regime, the size of the plecos and the water parameters would help.

I wasn't trying to make it a dense-texter, since I'm calling it an infodump because it takes so long to write.

Here it is:
1. Water parameters
Temp range: Last time I checked during the night it was 70 F (just below the green safe-zone on on the water thermometer), but I think it goes up into the green zone during hotter days or during the summer. Our winters almost never produce snow, although grass may grow frost crystals during cold mornings (soon melting) and hail may uncommonly appear.

PH, GH, KH: Will consult nearest petstore for a water test. Keep eyes peeled for rapid editing!

Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate: as stated above, not known yet.

Water change frequency: 1-2 times a year, I estimate (I plan to "suck" the bottom to remove fish wastes very soon, though)]

2. Tank setup
Size: Either 50 or 60 gal, not sure which one

Substrate: Big river rocks, a few seashells. Big gaps between the rocks allow large amounts of glass to be visible.

Filtration: Penn-Plax Cascade filter, only sucks from one spot, allowing fish wastes to accumulate. Not sure which size it is; as with PH, beware of fast edits.

Furnishings: Large amounts of plastic plants, plastic corals to the side. Big cave in the middle, pleco hides in one of its holes. Cave is plastic I think. There is an airstone behind the rightmost fakeplant clump, and an alligator which blows big bubbles, said to be DIY-made by petco employees. Also, buddha-statue. I am suspicious of some of the decor, because I fear it may be poisonous (already removed a real coral skeleton, which was bought as souvenir and may have carried chemical treatments) Anyone know methods of determining toxicity of the ornaments? Some (including cave) were from a LFS and may have been toxically treated, and better safe than sorry, but I don't feel good about terrifying inhabitants by removing every single decoration. Other decorations I am not sure about the origin.

Other tankmates: 4 koi. 3 are bigger than pleco, one is similar size to pleco. Big ones estimated 4-6 inches, small one estimated to be 2.5 to 3 inches. Numbers will change once I measure the fish.

How long: Several yrs (maybe 3-4 years)?

When was last new fish added? The two biggest koi were added I think several months ago. Three koi, one around 4 in. and 2 around 2 in. were carted off to make room before they entered.

Foods used, frequency: Koi eat goldfish pellets, one-two tiny portions a day, but recently have been giving them fasts (1 day) due to unwanted possible overfeeding by other people. The overfeeding probably is mild. Last sunday, as described, the pleco got a carrot chunk for several hours. The koi also get raw frozen deshelled corn kernels, cut into bits, frozen deshelled peas, cut into bits, fresh lettuce, cabbage, Chinese cabbage, carrot bits, and similar things (hardboiled eggwhite, an amputated cricket leg, and mushroom were some rarer ones), and fruit (mostly tiny bitesize banana bits and orange bits). Unfortunately, due to personal overfeeding-related problems, I have given them nearly none of this, except for the one carrot chunk. The big koi seemed unable to ingest any part of the carrot chunk and gave up on it, but the small one ate a tiny bitesize bit and seemed to swallow it. In the future, more veggies planned.

I did not give any pleco wafers because the koi always ate it (overeating fears), but I will as soon as the koi are separated. Unfortunately, the pleco has been living on a diet of mostly dropped goldfish pellets and algae. The sunday carrot chunk was only fed once, since now I am getting paranoid about possible bacteria (dark carrot spots) on the rest of the carrots, despite being in the freezer.

3. Problem description: Threefold.
1. Pleco cannot eat wafers because they become koifood, so I stopped giving them for now.
2. Possible ich: Pleco has strange white particles. One day they appear in large numbers, the next day they are gone, a few weeks later they reappear. One particle had sharp edges and was probably just junk stuck to the fish. Other particles seem loose, waving in the current but still attached. Some are definitely attached however.
3: Popeye? Fish had what looks like pop eye. See photo, which is coming soon.

4. Actions taken: (besides having incoherent fish nightmares) The pleco seemed to have pop eye on and off for the approximate year or two it lived in my tank, and this was previously treated with melafix I think (not sure). Currently the tank is saturated with a malachite green based medicine without activated carbon for ich at half strength, because the package said that scaleless fish should only have half the normal dose. However, the medicine has been going around in the tank for too long and the label directions were not followed and the activated carbon still hasn't been put in. I am worried about ich parasites developing antibiotic resistance. Also, for the current popeye I have not used anything. Does t c tetracycline cure popeyes? Package does not mention it. Also, put in some API Stress Coat. I have tried mushrooms, carrot julienne sticks, and blanched bok choy and wafers for pleco feeding, which failed and all caused overfeeding of koi and a one day fast. I have tried hand feeding and the pleco ignores me. Likely, it isn't tame enough. The carrot chunk was my only success, but tonight I will deploy some more koi proof veggies for the pleco. Also, pellets for koi deployed more slowly so the pleco does not overdose on meat and starch.

Some additional comments:
If the pleco has more than ten fin rays and has a spotted abdomen, it is undeniably

Pterygoplichthys pardalis

right?

Judging from my tank conditions, do you know what kind of cause the popeye was caused by?

The pleco came from a tank with ick infested inhabitants. No quarantine for pleco or any koi.

Are all storage tubs good quarantines? If not, which ones are good? I worry that some tubs are good for solid things but poisonous for liquid things.

The koi that were moved away are still in my possession, but really far away and not under my control. See separate thread which will appear here soon.

[fat meloe!]

Additional notes: Anyone know of what other precautions to take when moving fish?

Edit: If the pleco swims around in the water column frequently like a "typical" fish, is it a sign of anything? Both this fish and a previous deceased one (the dead one probably had disease and was not starved, but had too much meaty food) exhibited this. Two in a row makes me suspicious.

[fat meloe!]

Pics:

[Jools]

The pleco looks healthy and doesn't have popeye. I can't see that it has a sunken belly, and I don't see any white spots or signs of disease. It's relatively small, so try adding cucumber as a food that it will eat and the koi shouldn't eat much. I'd also feed sinking catfish pellets which the koi will also hoover up, but the pleco should get the hand of eating after several attempts.

Jools

[fat meloe!]

It does have a sunken belly. Luckily it isn't too bad, because the fish has been eating goldfish sinking pellets.

Thanks a lot!

However, I did notice an orange dusty patch around the fish's vent, which wasn't there before. Is it a bleeding area from some disease? See pic coming soon

[fat meloe!]

Does anyone care to state why they haven't replied? Is there insufficient info to make a diagnosis? Did the additional questions in the edits go unnoticed?

[Birger]

To be honest there is so much info it makes it difficult to decipher quickly what question you are asking.

Yes it is definitely a Pterogoplichthys.

I think an active one of these plecos in the way you mention is a bad sign...but a consistent supply of veggies will put a stop to this eventually.Looks healthy enough just needs veggies supplied that the koi will have difficulty eating...zuchini etc.

Shaming people into answering your questions is bad form...people here are generally very helpful. Maybe reword your question without all the extra bits.
It is not a requirment that we answer...most of us do not have much extra time to decipher posts.

Birger

[fat meloe!]

Shaming people into answering your questions is bad form...people here are generally very helpful. Maybe reword your question without all the extra bits.
It is not a requirment that we answer...most of us do not have much extra time to decipher posts.

Birger

Sorry if I sounded impolite to anyone, I had no intention to shame anyone. I was only curious about why no one was answering, so I could make the question better. I will be careful with words in the future.

And to all, on a more humorous note:

Watching a hungry pterygoplichthys surface, attach itself to a cucumber slice, float around in the water column with the slice stuck to its mouth in a very un-loricariid fashion, sink to the bottom and continue eating despite having landed upside down is hilarious! The cucumber feeding was a success.

[Jools]

Many regulars will take "care to state why they haven't replied" as a red flag and avoid replying to this post and may ignore others by the same author elsewhere. If multiplied by dense, unfocused text, then the chances of getting a reply, diminishes. Bear in mind some members have been here for 15 years+.

I didn't reply because I've been away from the computer (it is the Easter holiday here) and now I find the topic has moved on, I think, I too have a little trouble following what is being asked.

Jools