Do you actually find L236 in the wild ???

[gehandylan]

I have the opportunity to purchase a group of L236 Glaser.

There is a lot of debate that the L236 does not actually exist in the wild and that they are actual hybrids of other L species like L333/L066 that have since been line bred. The L236 is being referred to by some as a 'fancy' pleco.

To add to this, I have never seen or heard any WC L236 coming out of South America. None of the importers of South American fish I've spoke to is able to get me L236 from South America.

It's just that I would not want to invest in a L236 group if they are man-made and do not exist in the wild.

My simple question is ..... Does L236 exist in the wild?

[pleco_breeder]

Yes they exist, and have been imported out of Brazil. However, they are not on any positive list, and not available LEGALLY as wild anymore. This is why they are not available via export.

I cannot speak for the origin of the fish from Glaser, but am assuming they are coming from a breeder. The authenticity of the fish will depend upon the source.

Larry Vires

[Jools]

You did 25 years ago or so. No one knows if they are currently found in the wild. As it says in the cat-elog, what you see now are line bred.

Jools

[TwoTankAmin]

@Jools

Didn't you and Eric both get some purported L236 years back in Scandinavia? Or was that only L173?
I got my "L236" as offspring from Eric.

I am completely convinced that what we see as 236 today is likely not a species if it represents what is supposedly a "real" species labelled L236. Zebras have not been on the positive list either but for many years they were available in numbers from Brazil. Since a "real" 236 and "real" 173s would sell for even more than zebras, would they not have been collectable in larger numbers if that had been possible?

Based on the fish I have worked with, which is somewhat limited, I have come to believe L173 is likely to become an identified species but L236 will not. (Likely, my opinion and a ticket will get you into any show you want to see....)

[pleco_breeder]

I think this is a bit misleading in that it's assuming that "real", in most peoples' view, refers only to the bright white with crisp black lines variants. There's a MASSIVE amount of variation among tank raised lines of these fish based only upon second-hand information. With that in mind, I tend to believe that we likely won't know anything about the Xingu area Hypancistrus for some time.

@TwoTankAmin Have you got any updates with regards to the color of the recent L173 fry? Coming from adults of known "real" color, and the reported history of variation, it would definitely be of interest to know whether the same holds true.

Larry Vires

[TwoTankAmin]

@pleco_breeder

On Wednesday and Thursday this week, Rachel O'Leary was here. One of the reason for the visit was for her to shoot pictures and vids of the 173 breeder group (I have some pics posted in the forum of them when I first got them to work with). The we shot the F1 group which I have been growing out for some time. Finally we shot the 13 surviving fry from the breeding group. They are basically B&W when they get big enough to stop looking gray to these old eyes.

My 236 offspring are highly variable. So are those from my L173b from Glaser. The L173 appear to be more variable than they really are in the long run as far as i have seen. All my breeding group looks similar. My F1 group is going though a phase where some look very zebralike while others look more like a 236 type. But from there they morph again and begin looking like the breeders.

I finds zebras have a more consistent appearance although there is variation to some degree. The same appears to apply to the 173 adult appearance. The difference between the two fish, in terms of their appearance only, is that one can positively identify almost any zebra from the time it is free swimming until it's death. The same does not seem to apply to L173. If I am right about this, it might explain why so few 173s have made it into the hobby.

My experience is limited to what is in my tanks. I have never seen any of the fish in the wild. So my conclusions are based only on what I have seen.

As soon as Rachel has edited the images and vids she will post them on her Youtube pages and I will post a link here. I have some of the raw pictures and vids on a USB drive and have mot had time to view them. She did post a vid about the visit. But I must warn, you she makes me sound more accomplished than I am. It made me blush. The only thing I have that is pretty unique are the L173. The vid is not limited to L173 but does show some footage of them. It also shows 173b and 236. She shot the 450s as well. I do not think we shot the sw 236.

If you watch the vid, at about the 5:30 point she shows one of my zebra tanks. Keep an eye out for a fist sized rock with oranges blotches. This rock was sent to me by Jools who collected it from the Xingu. It is as close as I will ever get to the river https://youtu.be/M7nV7o0fgjo

[bekateen]

Thanks for sharing, TTA. Nice to see your tanks in video mode.

Cheers, Eric

[Ltygress]

I'm having my own dilemma with L236 looking so vastly different. I purchased 6 from "Alloddballaquatics" on Aquabid (I know, Aquabid is never a trustable source) and then two purchased from discusmadness.com. I managed to eke out that the discusmadness.com version comes from a private breeder in the Phillipines, but that's about it. They came to me with VERY thick black bars and coloring, and super-thin tan lines. Meanwhile, the version I got on Aquabid is about 50/50.

Also, the ones I got from discusmadness are growing REALLY fast! They came to me less than one inch long, and one of them has almost matched my adult zebra (L046) in size. And that was less than 2 months ago! Meanwhile, the aquabid versions have just barely grown.

Yes, I'll probably post photos of all of them at some point in the future for opinions and/or verification - since neither source is known to me. But for now, I like them, and they're happy in their tanks, so they're here to stay.

[TwoTankAmin]

alloddball is Eric from whom I got mine. He is a highly experienced and well known breeder out of the Pittsburgh area.

Some of my tanks Rachel showed in her video are actually outside. They are temporary summer tanks. One held about 60 L450s, one had about 40 L236 and the other about 38 L173b. I had another tank with the 13 L173 fry. We hit the high 40s F last night and will again tonight. I brought the 10 gal with the 173 fry back inside, I could not do that with the other tanks. I have them wrapped with many towels and twice the heaters I would usually use. Fortunately, all of the breeder tanks are always indoors.

Rachel got one thing wrong in the vid. She was shooting the 173s especially not 173b. She is not a pleco person and the 173/173b stuff can be confusing. But she was correct about the b being highly variable looking. I can say is the kids look nothing like the parents do. They also don't look much like real 173s either. But there are some very neat looking ones for sure.

[Jools]

@Jools

Didn't you and Eric both get some purported L236 years back in Scandinavia? Or was that only L173?
I got my "L236" as offspring from Eric.

Yes, we got both, from @HaakonH via Jorn. I think Haakon got them from Germany IIRC. When we have this discussion we need to stop talking about species.

It might help if we think of the conversation being more along the lines of what shade of red (or is it orange) that your guppy's tail is.

Except that a guppy is a described species and wavy lined Hypancistrus from the Xingu are (presently) not.

Jools

[Ltygress]

alloddball is Eric from whom I got mine. He is a highly experienced and well known breeder out of the Pittsburgh area.

Then I guess that already confirms the six I got from him. I'll try to get pictures of the discusmadness version, but those are the ones that hide the most! Eric's are just out and about all the time. It's hard to get a CLEAR photo, because my movement will indeed send them scattering. But the discusmadness versions are almost never out when lights are on. And when their lights are off, I'm usually sleeping! LOL!

[Ltygress]

alloddball is Eric from whom I got mine. He is a highly experienced and well known breeder out of the Pittsburgh..

Wait, Bekateen = Alloddball? Or a different one?

[pleco_breeder]

Different Eric

[Ltygress]

Okay, got it.

[gehandylan]

Thanks for all your comments to my post. I am little bit wiser on this subject thanks to all of you'll.

Yesterday I checked out and adult group (3+ inches) of 10 L236 Glaser. They are the offspring of the L236 Glaser group that was first imported to Canada. Both the seller and importer/breeder are known to me and are absolutely decent and honorable people. I was very disappointed with what I saw. Most L333 I have seen are way nicer and are at a fraction of the cost of these L236 which were priced at CAN$2600. Just cannot quite comprehend why anyone would fork out so much money on a fish that does not look like a $250 fish. Is it because of the hope of one day getting a SW fry out of say 100?

[TwoTankAmin]

I do not think it has to do with super white. My passion is driven by the whole black and white patterning. Start with zebras. There is a very high degree of uniformity in their overall appearance. They are not identical and show some variation for sure. But I have never misidentified a zebra from the time it goes free swimming until the day it dies.

So why have I pursued L236, L173 and sw 236? I thing they look amazing. When they are truly black and white, they have a look unlike all those brightly colored fish and lets not even compare them to some of the rare and/or really interesting but drab looking fish. I have kept 333, 260, P. compta and assorted bn. None of them catch my eye like the B&W ones. I got 236 because I hoped they would produce some pretty offspring.

The there is the consideration of the Belo Monte Dam and whether the Hypancistrus from the Big Bend will be eradicated as a result. My belief has been yes they will from day one. So the only way any of these fish might survive into the future is if fish keepers across the world keep them in their tanks.

I can speak from personal experience. But the little information I about things in the wild has led me to believe that the smuggling of all sorts of desired fish from Brazil which used to come out of the country has greatly declined over the past year or so, This mat be connected to the addition to the CITES Appendix of zebras. It is one thing to get around the rules and authorities in Brazil is that is the only impediment. But when the countries into which such fish are sent begin enforcing their importation, that really changed the game.

I can also say that when I bough my 236 and my 173, I new there was a decent chance they would not be "real." By that I mean what has come to be considered the typical appearance of these two L numbers. My experience has led me to think that 173 should end up with a similar patterning as adults. For my 236 I have no idea how the individual in any spawn might and up looking. Some will look really nice and some will be almost the opposite.

In this hobby there are some strange things. Consider discus. They come in all sorts of colors and patterns. But no matter what these may be, there is never any doubt that any one is a discus. This does not hold true for many of the the B&W Hypans. Look at that recent paper suggesting 66 and 333 are essentially the same "species."

Edited to correct typos, bad spelling and grammer.
I am not sure science will ever get it all sorted out, and I am not sure I really care. I bought what I bought, I sell them as what I bought and I always try to insure any buyers understands the controversy surrounding these fish. I can trace the origin of most of my breeders pretty well. What I am unqualified to do is to determine is any given L number is a species or will turn out to be a natural or man made hybrid.

Here is what I would ask of folks like Jools, Eric or Haakon etc. When you bought the 236 fish you did which appear to be the line that I have, what did you think you were buying? And when you got fry and shared/sold them, what did you call them then?

When I sell my 236 at events, I have a one page handout I offer potential buyers. It quotes Eric B's comments when he lists his for sale on AquaBid, Haakon from his Chaos in B&W article as well as a link to a thread here on PC and to Shane's World three part 236 articles.

# Jools
I disagree with your guppy analogy. Guppies are intentionally manipulated to produce a desired result. if this is successful they should breed pretty true. Is there anybody out there working with L236 who can say they breed even close to true? A line bred super white 236 does not even breed true as far as I can tell.

In the end any fish is worth exactly what you are willing to pay for it. I keep wild altum angels. They cost me between $20 and $30 each. But they are not easy to keep alive, even for me being in the hobby a while. Most folks will not buy them because of this. If one cannot keep a fish alive and thriving in their tanks, why would you buy it even if it is not overly expensive? If you do not like how a given fish looks, why would you want it (forget the financial gain side of things)? When it comes the unidentified B&W Hypans, just go into it with your eyes wide open.

As always, just this person's opinion here.

[gehandylan]

Can someone please tell me how to upload pics to a thread in this Forum. Thanks

@TwoTankAmin - Why each person pursue a particular fish can be for very different reasons. Why an expert like you pursued L236 and why an absolute novice like me was interested in them are vastly different. What matters is being able to have a healthy debate while seeing and respecting each others point view. Just my opinion!

[TwoTankAmin]

@gehandylan

I think we bought them for the same reason, we love how they look. The only difference between us is that I like to spawn my fish. Due to space limitations Hypans are ideal for me. They don't give huge spawns and they are pretty easy to sell and they can be kept in relatively smaller tanks. I am neither an expert nor a professional. I am a hobbyist. I just happen to love the Hypans and, because they are mostly so pricey and because I have too many tanks, I wanted my hobby to pay for itself. The other thing I have is amazing well water for the SA and other softer water fish. I really do believe my water contains a natural fish aphrodisiac more than i think I have any special skills.

Believe me when I say that I get just as excited today when I see any of my plecos on eggs as I did when I saw the very first swordtail fry in my first tank. The other thing I like is seeing my fish go into other keepers tanks to enjoy. That is only beaten by hearing from them that the fish they got from me have spawned for them.

One other thing that my pleco offspring have allowed me to do is to support, in some small way, sites like PC and events like CatCon or the NEC. I can do this either by donating the fish, selling the fish and donating the proceeds or by being a sponsor.

[Linus_Cello]

In the end any fish is worth exactly what you are willing to pay for it. I keep wild altum angels. They cost me between $20 and $30 each. But they are not easy to keep alive, even for me being in the hobby a while. Most folks will not buy them because of this. If one cannot keep a fish alive and thriving in their tanks, why would you buy it even if it is not overly expensive?

Tangent- how do you keep your altums alive?

[TwoTankAmin]

Since they come in wild, I receive them into very acid low TDS water. Then I watch carefully for the need to treat them. Often they come in sick and weak and that is a fight. I have lost a number within weeks. Assuming they make it past a couple of weeks, I then begin a program of staining their water and gradually raising the parameters over several months. I then keep them at a about 60-70 ppm TDS and 6.0-6.5 pH. The pH rises some between water changes. It is essential to do regular maintenance on their tank.

When I had hip surgery a couple of years back as the result of an accident I had about 18 -20 altums in two tanks. I got some help with maint., but not weekly. By the time I was able to resume normal fish care I was down to 5. They we never the same however and I just lost the last one yesterday (gutted). Fortunately I got some replacements a while back. Their tank takes a lot of work as I prepared changing water such that it returns the tank to the ideal parameters. I am using alder cones, catappa leaves, and rooibos tea. I use ro/di water and muriatic acid to help keep the parameters where I want them. I also have a continuous digital monitor on the tank to read Temp., TDS (or conductivity) and pH.

Just to circle this back to plecos, I have kept two Hypancistrus contradens in the angel tank now for several years. They do fine in 6.0 stained water.

There is an excellent site for wild angels. You must join to read the forums, but not to view the rest. http://www.finarama.com/ There are some true experts there. That is where I learned about using the rooibos from one of the admins who is a professor of Biochemistry at the University of Stellenbosch. I consider the level of knowledge and credentials of the experts there to be on a par with this site.

[bekateen]

Except that a guppy is a described species and wavy lined Hypancistrus from the Xingu are (presently) not.

For people unfamiliar with what goes in to describing species, this is a good read: A good primer on describing/indentifying fish species

[lukan]

@gehandylan

I think we bought them for the same reason, we love how they look. The only difference between us is that I like to spawn my fish. Due to space limitations Hypans are ideal for me. They don't give huge spawns and they are pretty easy to sell and they can be kept in relatively smaller tanks. I am neither an expert nor a professional. I am a hobbyist. I just happen to love the Hypans and, because they are mostly so pricey and because I have too many tanks, I wanted my hobby to pay for itself. The other thing I have is amazing well water for the SA and other softer water fish. I really do believe my water contains a natural fish aphrodisiac more than i think I have any special skills.

Believe me when I say that I get just as excited today when I see any of my plecos on eggs as I did when I saw the very first swordtail fry in my first tank. The other thing I like is seeing my fish go into other keepers tanks to enjoy. That is only beaten by hearing from them that the fish they got from me have spawned for them.

One other thing that my pleco offspring have allowed me to do is to support, in some small way, sites like PC and events like CatCon or the NEC. I can do this either by donating the fish, selling the fish and donating the proceeds or by being a sponsor.

Very well said Sir. You have covered all the reasons.