Need help saving abused emaciated 15 yr old iridescent shark catfish!!! HELP!

[Viktor Jarikov]

I only hope to help but my pleasure if I have.

MF: ... ammolock, which I am still learning about and may start using soon given your arguments for its utility in my situation. I just need to understand exactly what I'm using before I start tinkering with it (because of issues like how it affects your ability to test the water ammonia levels, how it is only supposed to work short term, etc-much I still need to fully grasp before relying on it).
VJ: The ammonia test result will not change in that if it shows 0.25 ppm NH3, it means it is there at 0.25 ppm (both NH3 and NH4+ but, as stated, treat it as one and the same) and, hence, you are feeding your nitrifying bacteria but NH3 is locked into a 100x less toxic form. If the test shows zero, it is zero with or without ammolock = the tank's cycled. A few weeks of usage to detoxify a 0.25-0.5 ppm of NH3 should be well within the reasonable safety time (your wording? it is not "supposed to work short term" but you are not supposed to use it long term). Also keep in mind that you will be taking it out with wc's, so need to replete.

VJ: You can crudely imagine the size of his stomach... ... The teaspoon amount (not heaping too much) sounds like it.
MF: THANK YOU for clarifying this. That really helps me and I can find plenty of dissection stuff and even email my vet if I need to.
VJ: In the regiment described, I forgot to mention that at least once a week it appears beneficial to fast an IDS for a full 24 h. Also forgot to mention that the stomach is a product of the biology: catfish often have irregular but larger meals, whilst carp usually feed regularly, often, and in small quantities usually. Hence, the stomach differences.

MF: ... When the husky is bored he goes up the sun bathing turtle and does some husky talk at her, she blinks back at him. Meanwhile the Boston Terrier is lying on the bed next to the guinea pig-they are dear friends...
VJ: Cute Sounds like you really needed a fish and a bird now too... And I liked your talking for the animals.

MF: ...There was a time...The only thing I have questioned was how to get there (big water changes versus food restriction).
VJ: I think so far we are doing both but now if he has been eating for some time and the NH3 persists and he just became sluggish, I'd stop feeding even if for a week, though judging from below I don't want to upset your relationship with the LFS expert.

MF: I will say though that along the way I have gotten GROSSLY conflicting advice now from the store owner, who thinks its ridiculous that I am being advised to worry about an ammonia level of 0.25.
VJ: My knowledge is a swiss cheese like. So cautiously, I'd think that something got lost in translation so to speak or he meant for a short time, like no more than a week, or he cannot afford the time needed to delve into your problem, esp. when you consult other people. LFS owners are very, very busy, stressed, time-pressed people, the ones I've met anyway were. They have to deal with lots of customer ignorance and waywardness. The people skills of some can be surprising as a result.

MF: He thinks having these high ammonia levels around is good because it gets you to the nitrogen cycle faster.
VJ: I'd agree if it was a fish-less cycling. I'd barely agree if Nacho was robust and you were experienced.

MF: ...What I am coming to understand is that caring for a sick fish is much like caring for an ICU patient-
VJ: Moreover, in your analogy, the ICU has to be built from scratch and the needed knowledge acquired simultaneously. You and Nacho have much going against you.

MF: ... There are a few solid guidelines that most people follow but then a TON of grey area open for interpretation because the chemistry is complex and can be debated from many angles. Its humbling.
VJ: Agreed.

MF: Current Plan for Nacho:
-Feeding: 1/2 teaspoon total daily of mysis shrimp, catfish pellets, crumbled Omega one veggie rounds (all mixed together)
VJ: You are not me but if it was me I'd cut it twice again - every other day or 1/2 of that a day/ Just for 1-2 weeks. Your filter should be picking up soon.

MF: Water changes daily to keep API test reading zero (currently around 40-50% daily, hopefully this will decrease as I just decreased feeding schedule 3 days ago)
VJ: You could consider adding the water continuously 24/7, e.g. place in a bath tub and crack open the faucet to a slow trickle and let the tank overrun while having a bit of excess of dechlorinator in the tank. That way you can change 100% or more a day. Just a thought. I've done it for half a year with a 4000 gal badly leaking pond in my basement.

MF: Learn about and consider ammolock as a possible option
VJ: Yes.

MF: Pipe was removed from tank, thought was it may promote food stasis and contribute to increased ammonia.
VJ: It could have been beneficial if Nacho hid in it during wc's but in general, IDS should not hide at all.

[mostlyfairy]

Nacho Update
This is Day 17 that Nacho has had a working running fluval 206 canister filter in his container of water.
It is Day 8 of him having a sack of "Marineland Carbon-Ammonia Neutralizing blend" added to the filter.

Feeding was with-held today as a fast day (per Victor's info about IDS needs), after over a week of feeding on mysis shrimp, catfish pellets and veggie rounds.

Water chemistry tested today
Pre water change am: ammonia 0.25 ppm
Post 25% water change ammonia: almost 0 (slight green tinge to yellow barely detectable, 2nd pm water change coming)
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm (likely from Nacho's excrement-he is making a lot and its hard to net it all up as it crumbles, I try to suction vacuum it with the water changes)
Ph 7.4
temp 80F

VJ: The ammonia test result will not change in that if it shows 0.25 ppm NH3, it means it is there at 0.25 ppm (both NH3 and NH4+ but, as stated, treat it as one and the same) and, hence, you are feeding your nitrifying bacteria but NH3 is locked into a 100x less toxic form. If the test shows zero, it is zero with or without ammolock = the tank's cycled. A few weeks of usage to detoxify a 0.25-0.5 ppm of NH3 should be well within the reasonable safety time (your wording? it is not "supposed to work short term" but you are not supposed to use it long term). Also keep in mind that you will be taking it out with wc's, so need to replete.

Thank you for this clarification of ammolock. I have also been reading. Yes, this may be an option if I cannot control the ammonia with less feeding. Today will be a fast day per the new info you shared.

(As an aside, fasting is associated with life extension in humans-there is much data on this now. It seems to be possibly connected with aging/longevity via programmed cell death from telomere length, complex hormonal effects on metabolism and other cool stuff I don't fully understand. Rich people spend fortunes on this kind of stuff and some go to spas a few times a year where doctors supervise their semi-annual fasts hoping to have a good cumulative effect towards life extension. There are also studies that prove that being on the skinny/lean side is associated with longer life because of metabolic effects. Data seems to indicate that skinny and hungry can be good, not just because of adipose stores/lipid profiles but for other complex reasons).

I changed out the cheap-o marineland ammonia absorbing filter media today in the hopes that maybe its just poor quality stuff and got saturated in a 8 days. Time will tell if my theory is correct. If thats true, better quality ammonia absorbing media may also be a strategy that can help me. I also checked the filter today to be certain there is more trapped food happening now that a sponge is over the intake valve, and thankfully that issue is fully resolved.

VJ: ...if Nacho has been eating for some time and the NH3 persists and he just became sluggish, I'd stop feeding even if for a week, though judging from below I don't want to upset your relationship with the LFS expert... My knowledge is a swiss cheese like. So cautiously, I'd think that something got lost in translation so to speak or he meant for a short time, like no more than a week, or he cannot afford the time needed to delve into your problem, esp. when you consult other people. LFS owners are very, very busy, stressed, time-pressed people, the ones I've met anyway were. They have to deal with lots of customer ignorance and waywardness. The people skills of some can be surprising as a result.

I left things on amicable terms with the shop owner. I explained my other experience and that when I have had conflicting opinions with consultants in the professional world, that means I need to do more research and learning until I understand why a difference of opinion exists. But we talked for enough time that it was clear his belief was to leave these ammonia levels hovering around or above 0.25 ppm AND CLIMBING HIGHER, until the nitrogen cycle establishes itself. This is his approach. I didn't have time to tell him Nacho has already failed this approach via my own errors early on. I have learned that many hobbyists regard fish as "expendable" and make references to being upset about them dying because of the "expense". I get the feel that may be his thinking as well. Clearly the way I think about this is very different. I am trying to save a life.

Fortunately Nacho is not sluggish at all. The water at its worst during the day right now rises to 0.25 ppm ammonia but I correct it to zero with big water changes. He is getting more and more lively everyday, now doing some surface antics that come close to flips-big splashes He has more frequent freak outs where he darts around. I try not to startle him my best. He is becoming more healthy-more curious, more observant, more playful- eyes more healed, more anxious to eat quickly, etc. All behavior signs with Nacho are improving But the week long fasting idea is one I have on the shelf for if I get into trouble- now that he has had food for over a week, if I have to starve him I am okay with that. I was just terrified to do that before in an emaciated abused fish with no clear known history-he could have been near death.

Reading about ammolock helps me understand more about Nacho's previous situation. When I called his dunk/drugged out owner, before I gave her the bad news that I would never give this neglected creature back to her, I pumped her for information. I asked her what he needed to be safe and have a home. She is living 2-3 hours away from me and thought it would take her some time (weeks) before she could drive out to get him. She said all he needed for a home was a container of water and his "ammonia drops" or some old water from his previous container of water (reference to nitrogen cycle bacteria). I now understand that clearly she was speaking of ammolock when mentioning the drops. That's what she meant-its very obvious to me.

So Nacho lived in a 20 gallon aquarium with rocks on the bottom (from the landlady who witnessed this in the house) and likely ammolock added to his water periodically. We doubt he had a running filter but don't know for certain. We doubt he had an aeration system. We don't know how often he had water changes. He had tropical fish flakes as his food-may have been supplemented with something else although from his skinny state that's unlikely. The details that he is 15 years old still hold up. I believe the horrific neglectful conditions could explain his premature development and little body even at 15 (and the little body could also have to do with other issues as the threads you linked to brought up). But he is amazing- it is amazing that a fish of 15 would survive 4 days trapped in about 3 gallons of water in a bucket WITH A SNAP ON LID AND ONLY 4 TINY HOLES POKED IN IT. Nacho is like a fish superhero!

-Feeding: 1/2 teaspoon total daily of mysis shrimp, catfish pellets, crumbled Omega one veggie rounds (all mixed together)
VJ: You are not me but if it was me I'd cut it twice again - every other day or 1/2 of that a day/ Just for 1-2 weeks. Your filter should be picking up soon.

This sounds reasonable to me- I'm leaning towards going with your suggestion on this for the next week or so while I watch what the water does.

VJ: You could consider adding the water continuously 24/7, e.g. place in a bath tub and crack open the faucet to a slow trickle and let the tank overrun while having a bit of excess of dechlorinator in the tank. That way you can change 100% or more a day. Just a thought. I've done it for half a year with a 4000 gal badly leaking pond in my basement.

This sounds like an optimal set up, but I don't have two bathrooms- there is no workable way for me to do this and still bathe!

I know we have many obstacles to overcome, but I remain hopeful. My biggest concern is your experience about these abused IDS rescues hitting the 2-3 month mark and passing away for unknown (highly likely metabolic) complications. All I can do is proceed with caution and try my best. He's definitely happy and well, improving. Thank you again for all the help!

[Viktor Jarikov]

All sounds good.

Yes, I am much surprised Nacho's survived 4 days with miniscule fresh air. Perhaps IDS ability to draw oxygen from air had helped him.

I'd be very surprised if the prior owner used ammolock. Not impossible but unlikely as this is a bit too special. More likely she was adding Seachem Prime or similar rival products that detox chloramines, chlorine, and ammonia too, because almost all use that to treat the tap water. My impression is ammolock is mentioned and used rarely by simple hobbyists.

As for the continuous water change, you can build on the idea, e.g., use a larger tub to put his tub in, or set it up outside with a garden hose (protection from predators, swinging temp, etc. would be a must), etc.

The sudden deaths you refer to in the last paragraph are not confined to IDS. There aren't many reported cases to start with (and all of those I've only read on MFK and Co., not experienced) and, going on memory, they do not appear to be confined to a particular fish or even a fish family.

[jodilynn]

Wow awesome job with the little guy!

I wish you the very best of luck with Nacho. Please just take a deep breath, "learning" how to be a fishkeeper can be very very overwhelming! I still get overwhelmed when I start to overthink things! And I've been doing this for the better part of 30+ years!

Keep the water pristine (I'm still on board with the 10% changes every day), keep food out of the filter (I turn mine off and always make sure to have a prefilter on the intake so stuff gets caught in the sponge and doesn't gook up the filter, it makes a big difference), clean water and warm temps will help him recover. The good food and varied diet will help too.

Relax. You are doing great, keep up the good work. Keep reading and learning, but stop overthinking! You can do this! Look how far little Alfred the Syno came!

[mostlyfairy]

Sorry for the delay- so so busy, not enough hours in the day right now.

Thank you Jodilynn for your kind words of encouragement ♥ Yes, Alfred's story was amazing and gives me and Nacho hope.

Viktor thank you for the clarification on the sudden death phenomenon. That is nice to know-perhaps there is a bit lower risk than I was thinking as first...fingers crossed.

I could certainly be wrong that his abuser was using ammolock but I still have that strong impression. She was not without chemistry education. She is a phlebotomist (yes, there are many functional drug addicts in the health care industry-more than most people realize). I tend to think she would have called water conditioner by its name and ammolock "ammonia drops". Also, ammolock is on our local petsmart store shelf right next to the cheap-o top fin fish flakes she bought him- it is something she had easy access to. I still think she may have been dumping ammolock into his water to avoid buying him a proper filter, but I could be wrong- I guess we'll never know.

Nacho Update:

Day 21 with the Fluval 206 running, seeded with biomax from a mature FX5 turtle tank
ammonia pre 20% water change: between 0 and 0.25 (yellow with just hue of green)
ammonia post 20% water change: 0
nitrite 0
nitrate trace positive (yellow with just slight orange hue)

(all testing being done with API liquid testing kits, results in ppm)

Nacho's feeding:
1/2 teaspoon of frozen mysis shrimp mixed with crumbled Omega One Veggie rounds, every other day

Water change regimen:
On days when Nacho is not fed, his water sometimes needs only one 20% water change for the ammonia to remain at zero. On feeding days the water usually requires two 20% water changes to remain at zero. All water changes get water condition added to them according to amount recommended on label to help protect against chlorine, chloramine and also help with effects of ammonia. Water comes out of tap at 80F, safe temp as Nacho's tank water. Water ph is stable at 7.4.

Every day I PRAY that the stupid nitrite test will turn from light blue to purple, but it does not. I have wondered if there is something defective in the test, but I realize it is far more likely that large water changes have prolonged the establishment of a functional nitrogen cycle from its normal time line-its taking longer.

Keeping Nacho healthy has been the primary focus given his near death and nearly starved state. His behavior continues to be excellent- energetic, playful, curious, anxious to eat quickly now, appropriately reactive to new stimuli, etc. His eyes are healing up nicely from the clean water, which is maintained at zero ammonia level for most of the day with my aggressive water changes and new minimized feeding schedule.

It if hard for me to feel good about feeding the emaciated Nacho only 1/2 teaspoon of food every other day, but given the circumstances it is prudent. (He did have a good week of twice daily feeds to build his nutrition up). However, if I cannot establish a functional nitrogen cycle soon, I may have to resort to the option of ammolock so I can feed him and still keep his water free of toxic of ammonia. I do have concerns about introducing yet another chemical into his environment when he is so sickly, but there are not a ton of options. For now, since the water ammonia is resting at zero for the majority of the day, I am continuing the current regimen in the HOPES that nitrite shows up soon.

[mostlyfairy]

Here are some quick pix (sorry not enough time to get really good ones). On June 4th Nacho was almost dead. Water chemsitry issues and caution about re-feeding syndrome have both limited my rate of feeding him. His body is not as bony as when we first met 25 days ago, and his eyes are far far better looking. But I'm not sure anyone but me will be able to tell the difference. In any case, he is still cute to look at

Nacho the immortal wonder fish, Day 25:

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sounds good.

MF: ...Every day I PRAY that the stupid nitrite test will turn from light blue to purple, but it does not. I have wondered if there is something defective in the test, but I realize it is far more likely that large water changes have prolonged the establishment of a functional nitrogen cycle from its normal time line-its taking longer...

VJ: I'd not blame the wc's. Nitrites may or may not appear at all (may appear but stay below readable by the test). Cycling is a process subject to a sleuth of complex variables. Moreover, IME when a seeded media is used to shorten the cycling time, nitrite may well never appear. So don't be preoccupied with nitrite (and if it does appear it can rather harmlessly be neutralized with table salt). Ammonia is the focus. 3 weeks have gone by. In one week it should become clearer whether the filter's starting to work. I'd try not to change anything at this moment, including how and when you feed and test and clean, etc., so that you have a firm reference point in time. On paper, I expect the "cycledness" should be reached within the next 2 weeks.

[mostlyfairy]

ok great, sounds good. I will keep this current regimen going and hope. fins and fingers crossed! Thanks Victor. Yes, I read a bit about salt and nitrite. I guess I was taking the cycle graph too literally- I was looking at nitrite as a harbinger of good things. But the fact that ammonia does not decrease after excretion (the way it does in Rainforest Jasper the Turtle's tank) is proof enough that a true nitrogen cycle has not begun working nicely yet. I'm glad to read you are not as discouraged as I am. I will keep waiting and not change anything.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Right. We appear stable and right now we need an established, reliable baseline to detect the coming changes.

MF: But the fact that ammonia does not decrease after excretion (the way it does in Rainforest Jasper the Turtle's tank) is proof enough that a true nitrogen cycle has not begun working nicely yet.

VJ: I am afraid I didn't get this.

[mostlyfairy]

Rainforest Jasper the turtle has a working functional nitrogen cycle going in her tank. She excretes ammonia waste but whenever I test her water the ammonia levels are zero ( I am assuming because she has plentiful amounts of the needed bacteria living in her filter that break down the ammonia in her waste). When Nacho excretes waste it does not go away-the ammonia levels just go up and up. I have tried delaying the water changes a few times to test. Whatever goes on in her tank that works well is not yet going on in his tank from my experience so far of testing both their water. I have tested them side by side- her ammonia levels stay at zero- his do not. Does that make better sense?

Sorry, you can get a headache trying to discuss this stuff clearly. I'm trying very hard to be clear though in case someone in the future (someone in my shoes who knows very little about aquariums) reads this thread for help. I appreciate you asking for clarification when it doesn't make sense.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Understandable and agreeable with the explanation attached. Thanks. A small point is, as mentioned above, the main source of ammonia is breathing, not excretion. So after eating, AFAIU the ammonia generation by a fish increases essentially by the same degree, almost regardless of whether or not an excretion occurred. NH3 is a metabolical product of protein digestion and assimilation and is degassed at the gills into the water. Yet, it is known that BM and excretion tend to occur after feeding, esp. in catfish that eat a lot but rarely. Hence, the interpretation you offered.

[mostlyfairy]

Oh that's right, I remember you taught me that point awhile back. Thanks for the reminder. Well no gills on Rain so I guess its safe to say she excretes it at least!

[Viktor Jarikov]

MF: Its my understanding that the API liquid test measures harmful ammonia PLUS harmless ammonium ion in the water, so the levels can be confusing.
VJ: You've spoke about this above several times. At the moment, I'd not delve into this and just remember to treat ammonia plus ammonium as one and the same. For our intents and purposes they are ONE. They are in an equilibrium with each other NH3 + H2O --> <-- NH4+OH- and it only depends on pH and temperature...

TwoTankAmin knows far more about it. See here if you will http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 99#p287634 3rd post from the top, 6th and 7th paragraph - how to separate NH3 and NH4.

[mostlyfairy]

Thank you for the update about this Viktor. Sorry I have not written back in so long-total chaos over here.

That total ammonia calculator was cool, but you did a good job of explaining this as a steady state equation before and I got the general idea. I'm pretty sure this is how the sea chem meter thingy works...it is designed to calculate an equation on its own by measuring certain parameters and that is how it gives such low readings of pure ammonia only (but the margin of error remains totally unknown).

I wanted to update with good news....31 days after getting the fluval running, finally, FINALLY, it appears that ammonia is not building up in Nacho's water the way it used to!!!! This just started in the last two days-when I do daily checks now, the API test is staying at yellow (zero):
ammonia: zero (yellow)
nitrite: zero (blue)
nitrate: 5.0ppm (very light orange)
ph:7.4
temp: 80F
feeding schedule: 1/2 teaspoon every other day

One thing that changed is that when it was time to change the carbon in the Fluval 206 filter, I came to learn that having the foam cover over the intake valve REALLY affects how much water flows through the filter. I actually had to remove it entirely because it had too great of an effect. The filter could not even use its normal mechanism of suction to fill itself prior to start with that foam on and once I replaced it on I realized how much impact it had on the flow coming out! So I have aborted using the foam over the intake valve (will have to carefully unplug the filter during feedings and always remember to restart it by placing the plug right in front of my field of vision). My guess is that this is a fine strategy for a beefier canister filter, but the 206 is an entry level one meant for only a 40 gallon aquarium and it just doesn't have enough power. I think over time it will destroy the motor on the filter if I leave the foam on and also limit the establishment of good bacteria. I'm hopeful that I MAY not have to do a water change today, pending a second set of water tests later.

For now I will observe and leave the feeding schedule the same, but I have hope that soon I may be able to increase Nacho's feedings to a daily schedule (perhaps with one day a week of fasting because of what was suggested earlier...I still have to read more to understand that). Poor skinny Nacho needs to grow a real fish body at some point here!

[bekateen]

Hi Mostlyfairy,

I'm glad to hear that the biological filtration has finally settled in. Honestly, 31 days is not too long to wait for a new aquarium to establish itself fully, so that doesn't seem unusually long to me. Yes, you should expect the foam pre-filter to cut back on some of the water flow, but not so dramatically as you described. I would be concerned that either the type of foam you're using is not porous enough, or it has become excessively clogged by organic debris.

The foam as a pre-filter is a valuable component of a filtration system, because it serves two purposes: 1) it keeps solid debris (i.e., poop, food bits, etc) out of the actual filter mechanism (which actually protects your motor too), and 2) it is a wonderful surface for bacterial growth, which helps all the more with biological filtration (i.e., when working correctly, it will not hinder the establishment of biological filtration as you fear it might). That said, if your filter foam is too dense or if it's clogged, then yes it will burn out your motor faster, it will reduce the overall efficiency of filtration, and it will lead to reduced oxygen levels in the tank due to reduced water movement.

If you can figure out what's wrong in your specific case and correct it, I'd encourage you to use the foam pre-filter.

Best,
Eric

[mostlyfairy]

Its not clogged, that's the first thing I checked...I carefully washed it/rinsed it in aquarium water to make sure there was no hair/debris etc trapped in it. I don't see the foam density on the package, but its a "fluval edge pre filter sponge" - not that dense. I'm pretty decent with engineering stuff- I'm fairly sure this is an issue of the motor strength of the filter. It SIGNIFICANTLY decreases the intake and output flow. I don't think it would be an issue for a stronger filter, but this is a fluval 206 entry level canister filter meant for only a 40 gallon aquarium and the foam significantly impacts the flow mechanics. I will call fluval to double check when I have time, but my gut is telling me the negative impacts far outweigh the benefits of having it on there. I'm sure that wouldn't be the case for a stronger filter, but unfortunately in this situation I'm fairly certain it is. Even though this foam piece was made by fluval, it was not made for this type of filter- was designed for a totally different filter.

If I get word from Fluval at some point, I will share it here. Maybe I can upgrade Nacho's filtration in the future- I hear you about it being a good thing overall. I was bummed I had to take it off- but the difference in flow was shocking- it was a no brainer. I felt dumb for not noticing it sooner.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Good to hear. Please, continue doing everything as you were for 1 week (except for the now-unneeded too-frequent wc's) and then, if all is fine, I'd start increasing the feed amount over the course of another week. These times are loose suggestions.

On the canister, is it set up correctly, i.e., so many feet below the water level in the fish tank? And yes, the prefilter should match the filter I'd think. It's a good catch. Water movement is crucial to the tank and fish health.

[bekateen]

its a "fluval edge pre filter sponge"... this is a fluval 206 entry level canister filter ... Even though this foam piece was made by fluval, it was not made for this type of filter- was designed for a totally different filter.

I understand your point. I'm not familiar with this Fluval canister model or with the Fluval edge pre-filter sponge, so it's really in your court to figure out how well they work together if they aren't designed for each other. If your 206 canister is not designed to have a pre-filter, then indeed, it may be underpowered with regards to this filter.

Myself, I use mostly Aqueon Quietflow HOB filters:

To the intake tube of each filter I've added a foam block which is sold by PetSmart for their TopFin filters:

So far, I've found these TopFin foam blocks to work well with the Aqueon filters, but as you can imagine this was just luck. You've got to figure out your setup based on what works and what doesn't work.

Cheers, Eric

[mostlyfairy]

Viktor, yes I triple checked all the measurements for the filter mechanics (they get very specific- how far below the tank the filter can sit, how the tubes must be straight, how many inches below the tank rim the water can be, etc....it all checks out and I appreciate you telling me to check, easy to miss). The filter has very nice intake/output without the sponge on there. I would say it decreases to about 40% of what it was with the foam on there-that much impact! Thanks for the plan for feeding changes, sounds good.

Thanks for the pix Eric. I will have to do more homework on this to figure something better out. There may be a less dense foam option-your picture looks like a less dense foam than what I have. I think calling/emailing fluval makes sense. Just not enough hours in the day right now even to sleep, but I'll get to it ;)

[mostlyfairy]

Just a quick update- Nacho is doing really well. I am feeding him daily now (except one day a week rest with no food). He is getting a little tummy on him now after he eats! I can tell he is gaining weight a little. I will try to get pictures. I am still going slowly to be safe, only about a 1/2 to 3/4 teaspoon of food when I feed him. He likes his Omega one veggie rounds as long as I break them up, his sinking catfish pellets and his frozen mysis shrimp. Should I try to offer the Omega One frozen blood worms I have as well one day, maybe to substitute for his frozen shrimp? Is this a safe food for him? He is REALLY happy when I feed him! I don't think he has ever eaten this well in his life, and he is starting to really get into the food

All that ammonia that used to be the misery of my existence now gets converted into nitrate, so I am learning an appropriate water change schedule now to keep his home nitrate levels below 10 ppm-it seems it may require two or three 20% water changes a week. Hey, we'll take it! WAY better than the several water changes a day we used to have going on over here!

For now its still good to keep Nacho in his crappy plastic container because he feels safe and sheltered, but I am also starting to think about his future and making a nicer home for him, especially if he starts to grow. He comes up to the surface when I talk to him now and really dances all over the place if he thinks I have food! I hope he survives. I still worry something can go wrong because according to his story he is so very old.

A few days ago my oldest guinea pig, almost 8 years, passed away. He was the first one I ever had to pass away in his sleep with no real acute illness going on. He was such a wise old Yoda like being. I had to feed him and clean him multiple times a day. His joints were giving out as well as his eyes, but he still purred when I cuddled him and loved to eat and just be. I fed him, cuddled him, tucked him into his blankets and then he left his tired worn out body for good. He will be missed but not forgotten.

To me 15 sounds so old for a fish but I guess with these catfish maybe it can be young-you just never know. All I can do is my best and see what nature decides. From what I can see though, Nacho is happy. His water is testing well and I keep it very clean by netting waste. He is comfortable and happy to play in his bubbles and eat his food every day. The little tummy on him makes me happy.

[NCE12940]

It's great to hear that Nacho is doing so much better. Kudos to both of you

[Viktor Jarikov]

Excellent. Blood worms are a very good food for any fish, AFAIK.

As for the lifespan, Fishing World Records lists 8 years, which is, of course, usually far exceeded in proper care. Perhaps all they had was one data point. Determining fish age is tricky, esp. with the tropical fish, whose habitat seasonal changes are not as drastic as those of the temperate water fish. E.g., the age of New Zealand eels can be determined from one small bone in their skull(?) that shows something like rings on a tree stump.

Anyhow, I tend to think IDS should live a long time to attain 120-130 cm max known sizes. Most large catfish appear to be able to live 30-50 years and many 100+ years.

[mostlyfairy]

Nacho is still with me but he has been refusing to eat recently. I am very worried. He still looks great. Nothing has changed in his habitat, water quality or feeding routine- I continue to offer the same foods daily.

He was doing so well eating about 1/2 teaspoon of food daily with one fasting day a week, growing and healing all through July. About three weeks ago he suddenly stopped eating for a whole week. Then he ate for two days. Then stopped again. It has now been well over two weeks since he has eaten. There are no visible signs of illness on his body. Quite the opposite.

-He has grown. He was just a little over 6 inches as best I could measure from the water surface, when he first came to me in early June. He is now about 7.5 inches in length as best I can measure from above.

-The sides of his body have more meat on them. I have tried my best to take pictures that show a little bit of his sides, but because there is no glass most views are from above. He gained wait and grew from the weeks he was feeding.

-All the broken off fins and catfish whiskers that were damaged from his time being trapped in the waste filled 5 gallon bucket have healed up- they all regrew back! His body looks perfect now, even the little whiskers on his face grew back. The eyes seem to have healed some too.

-I couldn't capture it in pix, but some of his fins have developed flecks of pretty blue iridescence in them when the daylight from my overhead skylight hits them-very beautiful.


I have wracked my brain trying to understand why Nacho is not eating. I test his water daily:
ammonia: zero
nitrite: zero
nitrate: 5 ppm after daily water changes, gets up to 10-20 ppm before the daily water change.

Yes, Nacho makes a ton of waste, even when not eating (his gills I guess) and I have to do daily water changes at about 30%-50% to keep the nitrate under 10ppm. You can see in the pix that algea flourishes in the half of his container where the lid lets sunlight peek in. I always add water conditioner in the concentration as directed on the bottle with each water change and the water is the same temp as in his container: 79 degrees.

Why is Nacho not eating:
ideas...
1.) Are the frequent water changes stressing him too much and finally getting to him? Should I make moving him to much bigger container a high priority (a bigger container like a 50 gallon tank should require less frequent water changes to control the build up of nitrate).

2.) Could toxin be leeching out of the plastic container he is in ( a "sterilite" brand plastic storage container from the scene of emergency where I found him dying- he has been in it this whole time). Again, should I make moving him to a glass 50 gallon aquarium a very high priority to try and save his life?

3.) Is this just the feared dreaded effects of him growing? This seems to be the most likely explanation to me given his history and much of my reading- that he is old, abused and now his body and organs have grown from proper nourishment and things are crowded inside him making him not hungry. This may be why some rescued fish die for unexplained reasons around the 3 month mark, which he is at.


I don't know what to do besides keeping his water and filter very clean, offering food and praying he gets better. He is active and energetic still, even more than before. He does a big splash at the surface every evening around the same time.

My family is going through some severe hardships right now. I will not get into the details except to say it has been so stressful I have barely been able to eat or sleep (maybe Nacho feels my stress...lol!). That is why I have not posted for so long. But I have been taking close careful care of all my precious babies including Nacho. I want to help him but I don't know what else to do. I'm very worried this is about his body growing after so much abuse. Buying an expensive aquarium right now is not ideal but if people think the plastic container is killing him (or its small size), then I will have to find a way. To me, his life has great value and I want to respect it and preserve it to the best of my ability. Any thoughts are welcome.

How Nacho used to look:



Pictures from yesterday:

[Viktor Jarikov]

Sorry to hear about the multifaceted trouble.

I think you are doing everything right. I have had plenty of instances of fish withholding from food for no obvious reason, from a few days to several months. There most usually is a reason and the more experienced we are, the better we get at guessing, experimenting, and correcting.

I'd not think #1. #2 may be but is far stretched, esp. after all this time. #3 is impossible to prove of refute without opening him up. Biology is very complex but high living organisms have an amazing, unexpected capacity to adapt and to survive.

Getting a tank would be good from the stand point of care - you will be able to observe him far better and catch changes far better, not to mention enjoying him much better, after all, the worker must get his/her wages - it's only fair. I forget which chain, maybe Petco, holds $1 per gallon sale every now and then, so a 55 gal would cost $55. A used one off Craigslist may be same or 2x-3x cheaper or even free and often come complete with a hood / lid, filter, bubbler, substrate, furniture, heater, may be even a stand, etc.

55 gal is not too heavy and lots of things can used for a stand. A standard, basic stand for a 55 gal would be $20-$30 online.

[mostlyfairy]

Thank you for weighing in Victor. Your experience gives me a lot of peace of mind....for example I know so little about how probable it would be that the plastic could be poisoning him. Its good to hear you think scenario's 1 and 2 are a bit less likely than I am worried about, but I understand they are still possible.

I already went looking for the infamous Petco dollar a gallon sale-not happening at the moment HOWEVER ironically Petsmart is imitating them right now and I can get an Aqueon aquarium but only at 40 gallons for $40. I was thinking of going and doing that tomorrow morning because his container right now is probably holding 25 gallons. It will be a step up for not too much money. Unfortunately they do not offer 55 gallon ones like Petco does, so this is my best shot right now.

UNLESS I was to get over my fear of used aquariums. Because I know so little, I am terrified to take on a used aquarium. How would I safely sterilize it? What would I ask about what was previously in it? I have read that even trace soap is toxic to fish so I was thinking the safest bet is to buy a brand new aquarium and let water sit in it for a good day to soak up any chemical residue in, then dump that and let him live in it.

There are many used aquariums on Craigslist and even a pet store in town that also sells them. If you have a tried and true formula for cleaning them that does not endanger the fish, I could go that route and buy him a bigger one such as a 50 gallon or 70 gallon. Otherwise I am leaning towards getting the 40 gallon tomorrow. If this is an issue of him growing and organs getting crowded in his body cavity (which does happen to these abused fish- I have been reading) then a bigger space to live in may send his body the right signals to expand more properly. Its worth a shot.

Also thank you for telling me you have heard of fish not eating for long periods before. I am so worried he will die. He looks great and acts great but he just stopped eating and now I am so worried for him. He has been through so much.

Thank you for the help. I won't give up on him. He certainly hasn't given up on life through horrific circumstances. He is a fighter.

[bekateen]

Regarding new aquarium shopping, it never hurts to ask the management. You might try two approaches: (1) Go to your LFS (not a chain like Petco/PetSmart) and remind him of what you've been doing all this time, then see if they would offer you any special pricing. Or (2) Go to PetSmart and try the same thing, but mention the fact that Petco has the 55 in their dollar per gallon sale, and ask the manager to price match. They may say no because the Petco sale is not currently in progress, but it never hurts to ask and you have nothing to lose... Right?

Regarding used aquariums, I've bought a few of those in the past. If they've sat dry for a while, I tend to not worry about disease. I figure that any residual parasites are most likely dead, as are most microbes which would pose a serious threat. But to be safe, I clean used aquariums with vinegar, or better yet acetic acid (not full strength, but stronger than food grade). This has the benefit of helping to remove some of the hardwater deposit buildup, and then you can let it air dry after rinsing it out.

Personally, I don't like to buy used aquaria because they can be grungy looking and they sometimes leak (I avoid purchase from private parties unless I know the history of the tank). If you buy a used tank from a pet store, see if they will give you some kind of warranty (at least 24 hr) - if it's not leaking when you get it home, it's unlikely to spring a leak the next day.

Good luck, Eric

[mostlyfairy]

Good ideas Eric Thanks for the help!

[Viktor Jarikov]

As Eric said, I'd try the price match argument.

With used, it is always a gamble, bigger or smaller. I'd not shy away from them, esp. if purchased from a store and not private person. I am not worried about soaps, detergents, lubricants, heavy metals, etc. if a tank was used for fish. As Eric said, pathogens would be my main concern and all those can be killed with dilute bleach or 3% hydrogen peroxide soak.

70 gal would be nice!

The main thing is that it holds water. And that the stand is perfectly flat and strong.

[mostlyfairy]

Thanks guys for the advice about buying used. I may need it if Nacho survives and outgrows this 40 gallon- I bought the new 40 gallon last night since it was the last one they had at the Petsmart near me and for 40 bucks you can't really beat it. It is a step up from what he has now. It was completely new and unused with all original packaging/seals/stickers. I filled it once for a rinse and emptied it, painful 5 gallon bucket by 5 gallon bucket, then refilled it now for an overnight soak in case there are any manufacturing residues in there. Then it should be safe for him to live in after an empty and refill tomorrow morning.

There is something very strange about seeing 40 gallons of water just sitting there through glass- rather nerve racking at first. Its counter intuitive- your brain sees it and goes "that situation does not look good!" Its on a very very sturdy old desk I use as a work desk for until I can buy an aquarium stand. Its very flat and very stable/strong.

Nacho still has not eaten but still continues to look good and act lively. I keep offering his former loved foods daily: fresh frozen mysis shrimp, sinking shrimp pellets and crumble omega one veggie rounds. He swims over them so I know he sees them but he just can't eat.

Time will tell. At least with a bigger home I truly feel I am doing everything in my power to give him every chance. There are no blemishes anywhere on his body so taking him to a vet is probably not worth the stress and from my reading all they ever recommend for intervention is antibiotics which can get you in MORE trouble unless you are certain you are treating something deadly-and as of now there is not yet evidence he has any infection. Closer observation through glass for signs of possible disease will be good.

When he moves into this new home tomorrow, I will have it covered with a blanket on all sides for the first few days, and then slowly expose only one side so as to minimize his stress. Fins crossed for Nacho.

[Viktor Jarikov]

Congratulations on your first, I assume, tank! What are the dimensions?

I've used cinder blocks, bricks, concrete pavers for support before. As long as one makes sure the support is level and sturdy, that's all that matters from safety point of view.

You can cover all sides and the top but leave the front open, so you can see him. If you got a tank light (I'd not), do not use it for now. If the light in the room is dim, may not need to cover at all.