Striped Raphael/Humbug -dying/gasping @ tank

[MatsP]

1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallon sounds like a fairly large mount. But not so much that it should cause a big problem. If you are also doing large water changes, then it shouldn't be a problem. Those who suggest using salt in tanks apply a dose of about 1 tbsp per 5 gal, so the dose you have is half that (or a bit less, since you add 2 x 10 gallon dose into a 28 gallon volume).

API (and other manufacturers') Aquarium salt is essentially the same as sodium chloride. It may contain a small proportion of other minerals, but the absolutely largest component would be sodium chloride.

As to the efficiency of the medication, I can't really say. I've never used Furan-2, but it's certainly the right type of medication for this type of illness.

--
Mats

[Marc van Arc]

Although your fish seem "beyond repair", you might try Ceporex, an antibiotic for cats and dogs.
We've had good results in the past.
Don't know about availability in the US though.
Good luck.

[MissBooBoo, posts: 17]

Although your fish seem "beyond repair", you might try Ceporex, an antibiotic for cats and dogs.
We've had good results in the past.

I am a Canadian, not an American. Thank you for your post. I have not heard of that anti before, but will research. Again, ALL posts are welcome. I'm having a mini-breakdown here, wondering how to medicate (if possible). I don't understand WHERE did this come from? I'm an avid fish keeper. If not, I could understand to a degree. I'm desperate and need help for my fish beyond yesterday!

[L number Banana, posts: 2140]

Hi, fellow Canadian here. Hope your fish are doing okay. We can all understand about fish as pets and most of us have had a real heartbreaker as well so we're crossing our fingers for you.

You were asking about what my have caused this and andywolloo asked about the cycling of the tank. That may be the answer if you were using a brand new filter and it wasn't full of the good bacteria that makes a tank 'cycled'. Ammonia can spike in uncycled tanks and start the stress that can lead to other things. Also I didn't see if you mentioned you were conditioning the tap water and using it at the same temp. Let us know about those sorts of things and maybe we can trace back what started it.

PS - Canada's got more than a few different water systems, let us know where abouts you're from and someone may know more specifics about your tap water.


Edit: sorry you had to have this as your first post, but wishing you good luck and welcome to Planet Catfish!

[Richard B, posts: 6338]

Sorry about chipping in late...

In almost all cases of treating infections with fish, there are some simple things to consider

1 - oxygenation - there looks to be a good supply in your tank

2 - water quality - you have posted that the water has been tested & things are fine, could you quote what parameters have been tested & what the readings are please. I would test every couple of days & check for variation. Frequent water changes will help enormously. The water used for refilling should be checked to ensure it has the same acceptable parameters as the tank water - pH, Temp, etc

A lot of outbreaks of disease are a indication of something else that is fundamentally incorrect with the set-up. Here you are attempting to treat a bacterial infection but the underlying question is what initially upset the happy balance you had & caused the fish to succumb to infection - without removing the root cause, long term resolution of the problem will be very difficult

How deep is the deepest part of the substrate? Is there any trapped detritus/muck etc that needs removing? Is it possible the water has become contaminated with household sprays, cleaning products etc that may have been airborne? Has there been any decorating? All unusual things need to be considered, like maybe there is some chemical/dye agent leaking from the artificial gravel? Some of these unknown things are harmful in very small quantities. I thought i saw seashells in one pic - even these have an effect on the water & would not be encountered by a south american species - is there anything you can think of that has happened out of the ordinary?

Ps the white marks on the right flank look like a heater burn - is this possible? It can happen with Raphs.

[MissBooBoo, posts: 17]

Thank you. There is nothing clogging up the filter. 2 large airstones in tank. Heater is covered to reduce burns. Temperature 79C. Water checked approx 10 hours ago. Readings: (Bottle Test)
Nitrate - 0ppm
PH (High Test) - 7.4
PH (Low Test) - 7.6
Ammonia - 0 ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm

The redness seems to have paled a bit. They are on their 2nd dosage of the FURAN-2 Treatment, out of a recommended 4.
FURAN-2 Ingredients: Sodium Chloride >90; Nitrofurazone 1-5; Furazolidone <1; Silica Amorphous, fumed, Crystalline Free 1-5. This is what I downloaded on the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS).

Should nothing appear better next week, I PolyGuard (by "Seachem"). It claims to treat the following infections:
Parasitic; Fungal; Bacterial. Viral is not checked off. It's ingredients are:
Active Ingredients: Sulfathiazole (75); Malachite Green (4%); Nitrofurantoin (0.25%); 5-Nitro-2-Furaldenhyde Secmicarbazole (0.25%); Quinacrine Dihydrochloride (0.5%). Inactive Ingredients: Magnesium Carbonate (20%).

I have taken out the carbon approx 7 days ago when I was treating for Ich. Carbon has been been replaced and let run for approx 2.5 hours to clear out any other medications. 28 Gallon Hexagon with high performance Rena Filtstar filter.

[MatsP]

Should nothing appear better next week, I PolyGuard (by "Seachem"). It claims to treat the following infections:
Parasitic; Fungal; Bacterial. Viral is not checked off. It's ingredients are:
Active Ingredients: Sulfathiazole (75); Malachite Green (4%); Nitrofurantoin (0.25%); 5-Nitro-2-Furaldenhyde Secmicarbazole (0.25%); Quinacrine Dihydrochloride (0.5%). Inactive Ingredients: Magnesium Carbonate (20%).

That sounds like the fish-medication equivalent of a "Long island ice-tea" - it has a good mix of "strong" stuff.

--
Mats

[MissBooBoo, posts: 17]

After Treatment (FURAN-2) *60mg Nitrofurazone; 25 mg Furazolidoine per packet*





Before Treatment: 07/April/2010



Originally Autumn 2010:



They had another 25%-30% partial water change today before I added more medication. Yes, they look a bit better. I`m concerned about a patch on the rounder one`s side. I have tried to take a picture (3rd & 4th *after treatment). It almost looks kind of fungal. I`m treating for Bacterial, but am afraid this may spread. Wait and see. Water parameters seem normal this morning. Going to do another test in a few hours. Added 2 capfuls of StressCoat (looks like they may be losing their slime coat.) They are at the bottom of the tank now. Probably because they were so stressed when I did the water change. One guy doesn`t seem to have as rapid a gill movement, but the round one, is breathing heavy. The round one was the last to show any redness or bleeding. Another water test approx 6.5 hours after partial water change-medications:
Ammonia - 0ppm
Nitrite - 0 ppm
PH (High Test) - 7.4
PH (Low Test) - 7.6
Nitrate - 10-20 ppm (redid 3 times)
Copper - 0 ppm (new test)
KH - 71.6 ppm (new test - hope I did correct)
GH - 89.5 ppm (new test).

thks

[wrasse, posts: 729]

Hello,

I've just read through this thread. The last photos appear to show some improvement - if that's the case - well done! And by now you are probably more up-to-date with medication than most of us.

I can't add much to what the others have said, other than - are these specimens always so round? What are you feeding them? Were they still feeding during treatment? Its just that they look like they have gorged themselves on something. Can I suggest - if you have not done it already - that for the remaining period of medication you stop feeding them. If you are not happy to do that, just feed live/ frozen live food and let them 'flush themselves out'.

There are certain meds available through retailers, usually labelled 'tonic', that target bacteria, fungus and parasites. Used with salt, I find its a very effective combination when I quarantine new fish that need a bit of help adjusting. I use Interpet General Tonic.

[MissBooBoo, posts: 17]

Thank you for responding to my post! I have always feed them 2 small pellets of catfish/bottom feeder food twice a day. Yes, I know, one appears to have ballooned up. He or she has been like that for many months now. I was even wondering if one was a female and had eggs. I was concerned, too.

The Rhaphael/Humbug fish have not eaten for the last 7 days approx. Today and yesterday were truly the first days I have noticed them eating since this disease took hold of them. What I am feeding them during this period is a medicated food directly from a specialized fish store the owner made up for me.

The above 2 pictures are from a few hours ago before going onto their 3rd treatment out of the recommended 4 by (FURAN-2 - API). Contains: Sodium Chloride 90%; Nitrofurazone 1-5%, Furazolidone <1% and Silica Amorphous, Fumed, Crystalline Free 1-5%. Had earlier used a bit of Kanaplex (by SeaChem) for an antibiodic. Thanks for your concern. I have been faithfully doing research and getting advice on how I can help them. All thoughts or comments are always welcome.
PS: The whiteness along their sides was literally pink/bloody. Unsure how it ever happened and not much resources on the Net, even in the 21st century. Vey, very, very difficult to get information on how to treat.

[Marc van Arc]

Canadian lady (I won't make that mistake twice),
According to the pictures your fishes are improving, which was something I hoped for but did not expect to happen. For this amazing feat I give you a big . I'm impressed.

[MissBooBoo, posts: 17]

Quick update w/pixs on the progress of my Catfish. They seem to be doing much better than my initial post. One has developed a secondary infection, but 'she' had a bath today to help scrape off the dead tissue. An extremely kind fish expert helped me, as he knew I was very anxious to try to do it myself. I cannot thank that person enough!! I will keep you posted as the days progress, but I am hoping, praying and being very optimistic that their condition will improve every day. Thank you all again for trying to help these very gentle creatures. Fri, April 16th, 2010 8:15PM


THURSDAY, APRIL 15th, 2010 - *Before* Medicated Bath to help stop secondary bacterial infection:


FRIDAY, APRIL 16TH, 2010 - Having medicated bath after scraping off dead tissue caused by secondary bacterial infection



FRIDAY, APRIL 9th, 2010 - After 2nd dose of FURAN-2 to stop bloody streaking of fins & gasping at top of tank



WEDNESDAY, APRIL 7th, 2010 - After 1st dose of FURAN-2 to stop bloody streaking of fins & gasping at top of tank

[MissBooBoo4, posts: 1]

Hello! Thks so much for asking....Today is Sunday, April 18th, and it's been 48 hours since one of the cat's medicated bath. 'She' seemed to be doing pretty good. I can barely notice just a tad of fuzziness. Only a speckle. Nothing like the pix dated on 14/04/2010 (see above).

They are beginning their 2nd treatment of FURAN-2 out of another recommended 3. According to my notes, this '2nd' treatment is actually their 5th, as they had 3 treatments prior to this, plus a break in-between. I had a break after their initial 3rd treatments, thinking this had cleared up. Unfortunately, the rounder fish developed this fungal/cottony patch which wouldn't go away. Noticed fungal patch on April 9th at end of 2nd FURAN treatment. Didn't notice again following day. The day immediately after their 3rd treatment ended (and I had hoped final), the fungal/cottony patch was back again. *Please see above picture taken 14/April/2010* After that, it was decided fish needed medicated bath to scrape off dead tissue and to go for another three rounds of FURAN treatments. Hope that's not too much info, or I've confused anyone??....just trying to get all the info out there I can.

Took a couple of pixs today -just before treatment. 'She' looks much, much better. If you look at the 2nd pix, you'll see a goldish/brownish circle, but that's just the camera/glass and light reflection. If you look closely, you can see the cottony/fungas is gone and seems to be replaced by a whitey healthy tissue.

[L number Banana, posts: 2140]

Hi, how are the Raphs doing? Seemed like you were getting some great help

[apistomaster, posts: 4572]

Assuming there was never a unexpected, uncycled filtration stage and these symptoms arose spontaneously, my first thoughts are that the symptoms you see are secondary to a primary infestation of parasitic worms.
I would have begun treating them with 3 medications at the same time for parasites; flubendazole, praziquantel and metronidazole. I believe it would be safe to add the antibiotic preparation you used at the same time without any fear of a harmful drug interaction.
I think adding about 1 tbs of rock salt per gal for the first week would also have been helpful.
I think internal parasites are what set the disease you see in motion but that disease is not the primary cause. You should also treat them for the internal parasites or as Matsp said earlier it truly will be "game over".

[Viktor Jarikov, posts: 2317]

It concerns me that nobody's writing about the experience I've had with raphaels and salt. This makes me question my interpretation.

What I thought I had found is that Raphaels are salt intolerant (just like e.g., Dr. Johnson's www.koivet.com reputable website says). I've observed this with many: striped Raphaels, spotted Raphaels, and others and even with (eventually bigger) doradids like pterodoras granulosa and megalodoras uranoscopus, which led me to believe that likely all doradids are salt intolerant. They turn reddish in many spots on their bodies, they swell up at the same time at many spots, around the mouth, fin bases, etc., and eventually die even from around 1-3 teaspoons of NaCl per gallon. The same happens but to a lesser degree with less salt, say 2-3 teaspoons per 5 gallon bucket.

I found this when salting my rubbing and/or ich-bearing baby koi which shared the tank with the raphs. Not a good combo, sure.

Since then, I thoroughly avoid adding any salt to the tanks with doradids, which is a huge inconvenience for me but I had to do it. But now I think that, perhaps, I misinterpreted the happenings somehow???

[Bas Pels, posts: 1932]

My experience with Platydoras is that they can have quite some salt.

in 1988 I got 3 Platydoras, and I always kept them with central American cich-lids. These are quite tolerant towards salt, and I have quite often used salt for them. Later, say 2000 I realized Platydoras are NOT central Americans, and might nog like the salt

But as these 3 are still (2010) doing well, despite the treatments they have faced, I think that are hardy towards salt. When needed I increased the salt with 1 g/l a day, for 2 or 3 days, ending @ 2 or 3 g/l. I never went to 5 g/l. The duration of the salt bath? It is remouved with the waterchanges, 25 % a week.

[Viktor Jarikov, posts: 2317]

wow, they are 22 years old now! very very impressive.

just to clarify for others: one teaspoon (no heaping) is 5 ml = 5 g of water, likely about 7.5 g of salt, so 1 teaspoon per gallon works out to ~7.5 g per 3.785 l or roughly 2 g per liter

[Bas Pels, posts: 1932]

In fact, I think they were half a year or more when I got them

Thanks for going into the amount. But I never spoon out salt, after all, 500 L, 125 gallon would mean 125 spoons

I just take half a packet of 1000 g

[2wheelsx2, posts: 924]

Or you can just use cups.

16 teaspoons = 1 cup, so 125 gallon = 8 cups approx.