Hi, I seem to have such a rubbish run of things lately. The last of which was velvet on my LDA33 (posted elsewhere) which shares a tank with my 3 Jaguar catfish.
I treated the velvet using ESHA Exit, which after a fair bit of research did seem the best way to go as it's a fairly safe med for sensitive fish.
However since day two my Jaguar Catfish have been refusing to eat it's now 2 days after treatment ended (4 days since they last ate) and still they refuse to accept anything offered (from wafers, Bloodworm mix, mussels and prawns). They have always relished their food and it has never lasted more than a matter of seconds.
I have noticed that they look pretty much as they were with the exception of very sunken stomachs. One of them actually looks like he's got a very "lumpy" stomach (almost like he has a belly of gravel in there). Also, they are now active until lights on (around 11am) they have always hidden away at dawn so this again is very unusual for them. Equally where previously they have always swamped my hands on feeding to get at the food now they swim a mile.
Have attached a short video of one of them taken minutes ago. I am at my wits end with all of this, these guys have been doing so great these last few months, yet now I feel so helpless.
Day after the final Exit treatment (2 days ago) I added the 3 x 100g bags of new carbon to the tank filter and did a 50% water change. None of this seems to have helped. What can I do? Are they likely to eat eventually (should I just persevere)? Or do I accept the fact these guys could simply starve to death?
Tank temperature is around 27C would reducing it back down to the 25-26C help?
I have toyed with the idea of moving them into the 30G tank on there own and maybe treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic? not sure about this given I have no idea what's going on.
Many thanks, and feel so guilty for all the advice I have sought from you guys these past few weeks. As above things atm just seem to be going from bad to worse. Thanks again
Firstly, nothing to feel guilty about - forums are here to help anyone who needs it and PC is here for the discussion and interest of catfish keepers worldwide. Anyway, back to the matter at hand. How are the LDA33? Has the treatment worked? I certainly would not risk moving them now and chance upsetting them now. The one in the video doesn't look that bad at all and 6 days without food is not the end of the world. You've done a large water change, and added carbon to remove the chemicals, and if you are happy they have done their job, then yes begin to lower the temperature - slowly, say 1 degree C every 3-4 days back down to 25C. The fish looks healthy, no clamped fins or cloudy eyes do I just think its going to be a few days before things get back to normal. Whatever you do, don't try overfeeding to get them eating, and ensure you feed a small amount to the other fish during lights on and feed the jags sparingly after lights out. I'm sure others will have other advice, but just, for the moment, try not to worry too much. Martin
The LDA33 seems to have fully recovered and shows no sign of velvet or anything else. Originally I planned to treat the plec on his own, but then I noticed a few tetra with what looked like spot so decided to treat the whole tank to be sure. Everything seems fine with everyone else.
I do think they are kind of eating, the food does seem to disappear after I leave the tank area. Assuming of course it's not the tetra eating it (unlikely given their inactivity after lights out).
You are right in the one on film looks not too bad, my main concern is 1 of them has a really sunken stomach (this is the one that for whatever reason has always been hand fed as he never gets a look in when feeding). ATM he is the only one still out and about (given it's way past dawn now).
I will go and drop the temp down a little and will see what happens tonight. Thanks Again.
If it's any comforting to you, I can confirm what Martin says. After an "event" (disease, overhaul) I "missed" my Lios too; sometimes for days, sometimes for months..... Just make sure you add some food during the lights out period, so they are able to eat and see to it there are no left-overs in the morning (so the food won't ruin your water quality).
Although I understand you want to see your fishes in order to see if they are okay, that's hardly possible with woodcats. Imo the golden rule is: if you don't see them, they're okay.
BUT: this rule doesn't always apply. To my regret I have to say I've had my share of this rule not working, because when I finally saw my fishes they were "beyond repair". And as I'm not able to see your fishes in person, I can't give you a guarantee. Imo this is the trickiest part of keeping woodcats.
Hey mark, hadn't been on pc for a while, but figured I should drop in and send you a bit of encouragement. Sounds like they just need a bit of time. Hope the jags are well today. I will have my comp uter up all day if you need to chat.
Hi Marc, Thing is ever since getting them they have always been out and about after dark and I have always added the food whilst they are there and tbh as I said originally they go crazy for it.
ATM they are still on show of an evening just not eating in the same way I usually expect. Equally though as mentioned to Martin the food does seem to go. I will try and do a better video than last night. However I guess the concern is they don't seem to be eating anywhere like what they have done and also the one specific Jag that appears really thin.
When my hand goes in the tank with food atm they all kind of vanish and have seen them literally just sitting on the bottom of the tank hiding. All very strange. I will persevere and have managed to drop the temp from about 27-28C down to 26-27C (ish) hopefully this will have an affect (it may hopefully be nearer the previous 25C by tonight).
On the other question, the Syno's are doing really well in their tank now, had no more losses and salt all out of water now all going well there
Rebecka - Thanks for your words, nice of you to pop in here and offer your support .. cheers (may pop in chat in the next hour or so, really need a bath atm .. just done another water change so bit stinky atm) Many thanks
I would add 3 points to the good advice you've already had.
- I would generally advise continuing treatment for about a week after all signs of disease have gone. Then water changes, then slowly lower the temp back down. - Do you know what sex they are? Male jaguars can get nasty with each other. Yours are big enough and therefore mature. You might see the dominant fish only, while the others hide. Look for ripped fins, gashes, white bite marks, listen for them croaking (arguing/fighting) when the lights are off. - Be super-careful of transmitting a disease from one tank to another, like separate nets, dry your hands, etc. In fact you can sterilise all by using the hot tap...
Last edited by wrasse on Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Did not continue treatment as the med stated 3 days only. Am not sure on the sex of the Jaguars but do know that I have not noticed any fighting /cuts/noises etc. In fact they seem to get on really well and happily intermingle from what I can see.
As for cross contamination .. I thought I had taken all precautions I could, from using a new vacuum to using only 1 bucket to have fresh water in it and another for waste water.
My Jags went through a period of ~4 months refusing to eat when first introduced to the tank. Don't know why. Appeared healthy. It was a battle of wills. I caved. Tankmates ate it all. I had to start dropping food on their heads in their hidey-hole so they eat something. Then they ate hungrily. In about 6-8 months, they went into 120 gal (from 55 gal). Were active and feeding fine there - I didn't have to seek them out. Point: healthy-at-the-start fish can endure very long fasts, even 1/2 year.
Jags usually eat (if food is plentiful) till they look like animal-print ping-pong balls with fins. I find it strange that your jags developed sunken stomachs after merely 3-5 days of not eating or not eating as much as before. One reason this happens is when fish have internal parasites, like tape worms, etc. If they've been eating to their heart's content for a long time before, they should get sunken stomachs only after maybe 2-4 weeks if not longer.
Meds and temp change things. Maybe temporary maybe permanently.
Last edited by Viktor Jarikov on Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Indeed Viktor and mine up until about 6 days ago would eat until I stopped feeding and regularly resembled ping pong balls with fins. Since the 3 day med this has ceased. Though I will say 2 of them did show some eating behaviour last night and the food certainly did vanish after a while.
Whether it was them that ate it or something else, not sure .. but the 2 of them do at least have what I would describe as flat (not sunken) stomachs. My primary concern is the one that does not seem to eat at all, he has very much a sunken middle stomach and what looks like bones (under skin) on either side of his stomach visible.
I have wondered whether this is a parasite problem, but it does not ring true given all this started when the med was added, it's been 4 days or so now since meds finished and carbon added and in that time 70% water has been changed.
Thanks for the reply, I will be trying for a video tonight (just about to turn tank lights off) which will hopefully show you guys more than I can write about here.
Well here is a video, and maybe you will see why I am so concerned .. this is what they now do .. the one in the video just freezing, it's just so upsetting and not what I have seen these last few months!
Seeing them behave like this only leads me to fear the worst tbh. Would adding salt to the tank maybe help things?
On the plus side, the fish look strong, they are not plastered with any spots that I can see. The rapid gill movement suggests you are not out of the woods though. Remove the carbon, repeat whatever treatment you did. Increase temp to at least 30degC and add salt as before. 'Blast' the tank with air. And this time, when all signs of disease have gone, leave it for a week before you begin WCs. Don't bother feeding during treatment either, it won't hurt them. Just give a vegetable to the plec... lettuce or courgette perhaps.
Hi,in a twisted sense I'm glad to see that there are other people who have problems with their tanks/catfish that seem to happen for no logical reason.Especially when the daily routine has not changed and no new fish or plants have been added to spread disease.Sometimes I think that its the tap water that causes the problem...you never know when the local water authority has messed around with pipes etc ...I'm sure they add extra chemicals to the water after a job ,but sometimes I think they may unleash bacterias etc that were in the pipes too. I'm only a noob but I've spent hours on forums reading about each individual species I have and tried my best to duplicate those conditions as best I can(setting the tanks up way before I even get the fish) and still had allsorts of problems rear their uggly heads. What frustrates me is that in the wild fish endure many changes in their living conditions from availability of food to water quality,temperature,depth,sunlight etc etc and survive no probs..but a slight change in a tank can cause no end of problems and even death! Frustrating ,expensive and with certain fish a total disaster for that species if they die eg the death of my male C.Evelynae!!!
I really do not want to treat with exit (which was for the plec and a few of the tetra) again tbh .. however I am keen on trying the salt idea (did not add it last time, only my cuckoo tank). Will these guys be ok given current state without food for another week? Also, you certain (as can be) the raising the temp up to 30C is not going to affect the Jags? (asking as unsure whether it was this that started the whole not eating thing)
One other thing, I thought it would be fine to use salt while carbon present? (only just bought and added the new carbon, don't really want to have to remove and buy new yet again, if ya see me point).
If it's ok, I will remove 20ltr water and replace with 20ltr fresh with the salt added and gradually added over a few hours (whilst raising the temp). Sorry with the Q's lol just want to get this right
Many thanks for you continued support and Cheers Rebecka
Minweir - Yes it can all get somewhat frustrating (as you may have noticed me getting in this thread lol) it's like the Cuckoo's had spot in their tank, lost 5 of them (all replaced) problem solved .. took as many precautions as I could re not cross contaminating my other tanks .. then BAM my 4ft gets issues .. very annoying, but much more upsetting.
My jaguars are happy at 28degC. 30 is no problem for these fish. 31-32 would speed the process. Blast the tank with air and add salt... both will help them take in oxygen.
Your jaguars are far from starving. Right now food is not the issue. Curing them is... to be blunt. Rapid gill movement suggests continued infection to me. Sorry to say, but i think you removed the treatment too quickly first time around. I might be wrong.
Scaleless catfish makes disease treatment trickier, unfortunately. Regarding the outcome... there are no guarantees with this mister.
Hi I have experience of Woodcats particularly Jags.
what I will add to this discusion is:
Your Jags look healthy Jags will not tolerate nitrate pretty much at all, they will breathe rapidly and not eat food. when ever My jags had any signs of illness I treated with Water changes every day for days on end.
That is all.
One more bucket of water and the farce is complete.
I am pretty confused now (not hard to do at this point) Wrasse & grokefish your both saying different things, hence my confusion. I would be happy to do a big water change tonight and add salt (even raise the temperature) However are you both able to agree this at this point is what's required, or would it be just as beneficial to maintain the 26C temp and just do good 30% W/C daily?
Wrasse the tank is 240ltr, when you say blast it with air, do you mean add as much surface movement as possible? (I can add another air stone, but that's about it)
Many thanks & just for info I will add a Ammonia and Nitrate result in a short while (before doing the water changes).
Results are - Ammonia 0, Nitrate between 10 - 20ppm (I would edge it more towards 20ppm as the API colour chart does not really have a distinct difference between 10 & 20ppm and it was pretty dark orange).
Last edited by redfan on Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.