Hi All,
An updated scoop.
I am working on a start-up, Public Fresh Water Aquarium in Naples, FL. Nothing fancy – pretty much an extended hobby at this point - a 1-2 people, family business. Hopefully, eventually a $50,000-$100,000 annual revenue operation. No building but an array of free-standing, above-ground fish tanks in a 55'x55' screened-in lanai. Concrete, clay-tiled slab for the floor. Tarp or thin metal roof, roll-down plastic curtains for the side walls for colder times. Heavily shaded.
No marine fish, only fresh water and some brackish. I intend to display the largest fresh water fish there is (90% are 2' adult size and longer) from all five continents and pay great attention to the educational side of the business in addition to the obvious entertaining side. The vast majority of the fish are catfish and odd balls - arowanas, pacus, giant gouramis, gars, various carp, koi, eels, arapaimas, Nile perch, bass, sturgeon - stuff like that.
I intend to employ no heating or cooling of the water and no bio-filtering – it's a flow-through system: one pipe in and one pipe out and perhaps a few bubblers to keep the tanks well aerated and stirred. That's it. No furniture in the tanks except for a few sticks/tree trunks of driftwood, maybe. No gravel/sand (in my experience with large tanks/ponds, it does more harm than good by accumulating fish waste).
The exhibit water temp is about 80-82 F for the hottest months of the year and about 68-70 F for the coldest.
The incoming water is at ~74 F year round. It is a mix of my raw, low-end-brackish well water (TDS ~1300 ppm, out of whish 500 ppm is Ca and Mg) and RO water. Current RO capacity is 2000 gal a day. Will add another RO system or membrane(s). May or may not add a softener station. I will collect and use rain water too off of the whole lanai and our 3300 sq ft and 2700 sq ft ranch houses.
Apart from all the costly permits, site modifications, etc., I have only ~$35,000 to invest into the exhibits at the start. Very, very measly by any/most measures. Cannot hire a reputable professional, like Aquatic Exhibit Group, so have to seek other options.
IRS mandates us that the business must be in operation by Mar 2012, that is providing goods/services and paying taxes, W2 salaries, etc. But I need the tanks even sooner – the fish I have currently is in need of larger homes already and I keep collecting large fish as opportunities arise.
Unless cost-prohibitive, the tanks/exhibits should rest on either legs or a base (cinder blocks, or solid concrete, or concrete walls with gravel or sand inside, etc.), which should be 2'-3' high to bring the tank bottom level closer to the eye level of the viewers. The base/legs will rest on the lanai floor (which may be only 4" thick – I do not know for sure yet; may be too thin a slab for a static load; ok for a point load). Also, the lanai floor has a pitch for the rain water run off and two steps in the middle making one quarter of the lanai raised by 1-1.5'. This is a big inconvenience for installing the tanks level, making the level base even more desirable.
The window dimensions should be maximized, thus minimizing or ideally leaving no blind spots for the viewers.
The bottom of each tank, ideally, should be tapered on the inside at about 5 degrees towards the bottom drain at one end of the tank - the bottom drain may be just a dimple with a hole, into which I will install a bulkhead,.
I've spent a lot of time over the last year reading everything that I could possibly find about big tanks or ponds with windows. The stickiest point is, of course, the window. I think I've more or less carefully considered and consulted, where I could, with professionals on the fish tanks made of fiberglass (mass produced and custom), acrylic, glass, concrete, stainless steel, aluminum, rubber liner, PE, plywood/wood, etc.
I aim at a ~700 gal tank to be my smallest exhibit, something like 8’x4’x3’ of water.
(1) Glass: very expensive, around $3500-$4000 for ~700 gal, and very heavy but still on the table. Really, only Glasscages.com build such tanks that are available and affordable. They have a sketchy history of quality – a lot of satisfied customers are out there but there are plenty dissatisfied. Try Google.
135 gal 72x18x25 $369 2.7 $/gal
240 gal 96x24x25 $759 3.2 $/gal
300 wide 96x30x25 $1201 4.0 $/gal
340 gal 130x25x24 $1455 4.3 $/gal
375-8 wide 96x36x25 $1819 4.9 $/gal
500-8wide 96x48x25 $2669 5.3 $/gal
610-C2.5 130x37x30 $2940 4.8 $/gal
(2) Acrylic: even more expensive, $4000-$5000, up to $6000 for ~700 gal. See the on-line price lists of companies like Fintastic (GA; http://www.fintastic.us/Tenecor_JUN2011_MSRP.pdf ), Livingcolor (FL), and Tyde Pool (CA). Acrylic vs. Glass: very long but informative discussion http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... S.-ACRYLIC (I’d pay attention to only first 10 or so pages, after that the quality degrades a lot and also people start repeating the same things).
From the Tenecore price list: these are the kinds I'd be interested in. I may choose them as they are or choose bigger (e.g., imagine joining these together and making 2-3 very long tanks but still at 4' (preferably 6') wide and 2', 2.5', or 3' deep; may be straight or L-shaped). These are outside dimensions:
Ultra-Rectangles U525 120x48x24 4,525$
Ultra-Rectangles U670 120x48x30 5,032$ (appears the best match for the combo of my needs and price)
Ultra-Rectangles U775L 120x48x36 7,126$
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Why is this one, only 2' shorter, so much less expensive??
Ultra-Rectangles U620 96x48x36 4,503$ (vs 7,126$)
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This price difference may be more understandable??
Ultra-Rectangles U535 96x48x30 3,719$ (vs 5,032$)
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Greg Sowers (Fintastic owner) wrote to me:
Tenecor lead time will be 8 weeks but 3 guys just left Tenecor recently and started their own company. Their tank builder worked as Tenecor’s Lead Senior Tank builder for 12 years and went with them, so I feel pretty comfortable that the tank quality will be the same. They are telling me their lead time right now is 4 weeks. They will also be competitive to Tenecor. Tenecor is from Arizona and the new company I am actually not sure. I will find out but it will not change shipping more than 2 days. You should plan on a week for shipping to be safe anyhow.
From another vendor (that works with Fintastic) that is a little higher end and are full acrylic units (freight and crate are extra):
96x36x36.. 3/4" acrylic.. $4,375 ea.
96x48x36.. 3/4" acrylic.. $4,625 ea.
120x36x30.. 3/4" acrylic.. $4,875 ea.
120x60x36..1” acrylic.. $12,000 ea. 1,122 gallons.
(2a) Polycarbonate can be mentioned here but I know of no polycarbonate tanks. Only windows. From what I was told by Jack Broyl (owner-operator of Dolphin Fiberglass Products), these windows are approx. functionally the same as acrylic. Although others on the i-net claim they are even more scratchable than acrylic; still others say they are not.
(3) Stainless steel+window: cannot find a precedent of a large tank described on the net and having a window. Projected to be as expensive as acrylic or even more – problem is not only the high price of the SS but also the length of time and the high labor intensity of the very slow welding process of SS. Unlikely – too expensive.
(4) Concrete+window: this is a popular choice and, of course, a permanent and immobile construction. Examples: 2500 gal, 2 windows http://www.anythingfish.com/Todds%20ray ... shTank.htm
5000 gal, 2 windows http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forum ... by-JohnPTC
2600 gal, our own ElTofi viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32680
So, this has been done and more or less well described but only (in my search) by DIY-ers in US as well as by several UK companies (google “koi ponds with windows” – some of them are out of business already but all of them, strangely, are in UK). Waterproofed by epoxy, fiberglass, pool-type waterproof concrete, and other coatings, which I do not know what they contain, e.g., used by ElTofi. This option may come out to be less expensive, especially if I do it myself, perhaps, $1000-$1500 in materials and zero for my labor (~700 gal tank).
John Polk and I have had a long conversation (owner-operator of Tydepoolmarine, CA): John professes that all concrete tanks leak. Even the best built Public Aquaria tanks will start leaking after a year or so. No matter how well waterproofed, concrete cannot hold water, fresh or salt. Even the shallow ones, just like my targeted tanks of the 2'-3' depth. The only leak-proof, big tank options are full acrylic or FRP (fiber reinforced plastic) with acrylic/glass windows.
(5) Precast concrete+window: here are some quotes from OldCastle Precast: “…. The 8'x4'x3'bottom and walls only would be $1000. The stainless steel frame, epoxy coating, bottom drain would be something we could fabricate in the structure but will require more time to get those prices. … 10'x5'x3' (1100 US gal) would be priced at $1844…. the 20'x10'x3' (6000 US gal) would be $5703 and would weigh ~22 tons.”
(6) Plywood+window: been done, examples: 1700 gal one window http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/d ... tank_1.php
2400 gal one window and 8000 gal 2 windows : Ted built plywood tropical tanks in his backyard in Seattle http://www.anythingfish.com/images/Ted/ ... rIndex.htm
600 gal, one window, exceptionally well described http://www.jonolavsakvarium.com/eng_diy ... itres.html
(7) Rubber liner+window: I’ve seen the pics of such pond-aquarium hybrids on the net but never came across how the liner+window seam is made waterproof. I can imagine a few options. But out of all ponds, I have the most experience with building rubber liner ponds (no windows) and I do not want to deal with them anymore. They are unsightly. Big fish puncture them and some chew them. The liner would have to be under a protective layer of something, e.g. concrete or acrylic, etc. I do not like it. But it is so economical relative to other options!
(8) Polyethylene or polypropelene, etc (PE): cheap big tubs are available, e.g., $800 for 1000 US gal water storage tanks. Never found anyone putting a window in one of those. Strongest, least buckle-prone, and cheapest are the cylindrical tubs, which means the window will have to be curved. That’s a con. Would need a strong frame for the window. Even so, this material just bows too much – the window will never last leak-free, more than likely.
(9) Aluminum: as discussed here and other i-net places, can be toxic to fish, not good. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33344&hilit=+aluminum
(10) Finally, Fiberglass tubs+window: these are the front runners at the moment.
Aquaticeco.com, near Orlando FL - only two sizes suitable for me, 8’x4’x3’, $2000, 8’x4’x2.5’ $1600
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories ... 1063569469
These are mass-produced I think in Malaysia or Indonesia. Problem with these: the aquatic-eco fiberglass tubs with windows do not look like that pictured on their website. The one pictured is probably a small(er) tank.
The 600 US gal, 8'x4'x30", $1630 tank (product # FT523W2) has a 69"x17" window.
The 720 US gal, 8'x4'x3', $2005 tank (product # FT632W2) has a 63"x15.5" window (yes, even smaller).
The website pic is, therefore, quite misleading. Bummer. The aquatic-eco tanks are out of consideration.
Their acrylic windows are pretty thin too at only 1/4". What's wrong with this thickness? Greg Sowers wrote: These tanks are for fish farming and not public aquarium viewing. The acrylic will bow and is not very good quality as these things are not designed for what you are wishing to use them for. They will not leak, but will not be a good long or short term option in my opinion.
Ok. I guess, I'd be open to getting roughly the same gallonage for the same price. That is,
-- if I bought 5 to 10 of the 600 gal $1630 tanks, I'd get 3000 to 6000 gal of tank space for $8150 to $16,300. That's 2.7 $ per gal.
-- if I bought 5 to 10 of the 720 gal $2005 tanks, I'd get 3600 to 7200 gal of tank space for $10,000 to $20,000. That's 2.8 $/gal.
Current front runner: Dolphin Fiberglass Products, Homestead, FL - - http://www.aquaculturetanks.com/
Nice Company and nice owner, Jack Broyl. Spent a few hours with him. They cannot beat the above aquatic-eco $2005 price for an 8’x4’x3’, the closest would be $2500-$2750 (but with a nice big window). They can make any size tanks and have the molds for many bigger tanks - see their nice on-line collections of photos and the price list – almost all the tanks of my interest – square, semi-square, and rectangular can have windows installed.
Please, take a look a their, for example, semi-square fiberglass tanks - $14,000 (well, maybe $14,500 or $15,000 today) buys 25'x25'x6' = 23,000 gal. Throw in acrylic window(s) and it will be close to $20,000-22,000 or so. Result with windows: ~1 dollar per gallon.
This is just an example - I'd only be able to get these huge tanks when/if my business takes off. At the moment, I am more interested in their newest product (not listed in their catalog or their price list yet) – semi-square tank 13'x13'x4' = 5000 gal for only ~$7000. Add window(s) - maybe $10,000-$12,000. Result: ~2 dollars per gallon.
I spoke with Jack Broyl, owner of Dolphin Fiberglass Products again last week. Asked about warranty again and the history of their aquariums. Jack says even though they guarantee their aquariums against leaks for only 2 years (with proper install), he has never had a single leak complain on or after warranty in 15 years that he has been making aquariums. I am meeting with him tomorrow again.
I have been also considering Dolphin's rectangular tanks, price list page 6 and 7. Something like 20'x7'x3' = 3000 gal, ~$6000, add windows, perhaps $10,000. That's still 3.3 dollars per gallon. Better than 7.5 $/gal for the U670 Tenecor tanks cited above.
Greg Sowers: I just received the information from another supplier. This will not meet with your deadline, but it is an aquarium that I think would meet your needs. 1,430 gallon rectangular fiberglass tank – 36” tall x 48” wide x 192” long, flat bottom, open top with top lip, fabricated from a premium grade, isophthalic resin with a smooth pool blue gel coated interior and a textured gray pigmented exterior. Complete with two (2) 30” tall x 81” long (viewing area) windows and one (1) 2” drain fitting $23,000 FOB Texas – lead time 18 to 24 weeks ADA (after drawing approval).
This is too expensive, 16 dollars per gallon, even compared to the fully acrylic Ultra-Rectangles U670 120x48x30 5,032$ (7.5 $/gal). For $23,000 I can have 4.6 (say 5) of such tanks totaling 3082 gal. This is far better than 1430 gal for 23,000.
Shawn J. Rich (Director of Sales, Living Color): We have come up with the Fiberglass/Acrylic tank proposal as requested. The dimensions we discussed on the phone were: 180" Long x 96" Wide x 30" High. The acrylic view window would only be on one side (the 180x30 window). The acrylic viewing panel will be 1.25" thick, seamless and fully transparent. The cost of the design and fabrication of the tank only = $27,600. Shipping, installation, filtration, lighting and sales taxes are excluded.
2200 gal for 27,600 - 12.5 $/gal. Also more expensive vs. U670's. The reason we are considering the fewer-but-larger-tanks scenario is to save money in dollar per gallon. This is the same reason to go with FRP+windows vs. full acrylic.
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As of today, I am hoping for two Dolphin Fiberglass tanks, 13’x13’x3’, 3750 gal with two 8’x3’ acrylic windows each – that’s ~$20,000-$25,000 and ~$10,000-$15,000 worth of glass tanks, say seven 135 gal $369 and seven 240 gal $759, from Glasscages (I dot think I will be able to keep buffing out the scratches from acrylic display tanks).
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I hope reading this was not a waste for you.
Viktor
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