L046 vs. L333

[ErikO, posts: 31]

I've been looking for some L134 or L333. I have found some L333 but I'm in Hawaii and the Hawaii Dept. of Ag. will not allow them to be imported into the state. But they will allow the L046 to be imported. This confuses me. I talked with the fresh water fish specialist for the state and he told me that none of the Hypancistrus Sp are allowed in. First dumb question, what does Sp stand for? I can petition the state to allow say the L134, L270 and the L333. What are the differances between these and the Hypancistrus Zebra (L046)?

Thanks,

Erik

[Narwhal72, posts: 141]

"sp." is an abbreviation for "species". If all Hypancistrus species are not allowed in Hawaii then L46 should not be allowed either. The difference may be that when the fish was first imported it was referred to as a Peckoltia and may have been allowed in when it was called by that name and is now grandfathered in despite the fact that it has been reclassified as a Hypancistrus.

Andy

[ErikO, posts: 31]

Go Brewers.

The same thing happens with the Peckoltia. I'm speculating, but, with the price and demand for the L046, someone may have already successfuly petitioned the state. If so, I may be able to get copies of that petition.

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

An alternative interpretation is that they do not allow any import of species of Hypancistrus that are not described. "Hypancistrus sp." is a way that you would call undescribed species of Hypancistrus. On the other hand, this would suggest that, assuming the state doesn't keep up to date, that even subsequently described species of loricariids will be, by default, not allowed, assuming Hawaii works by a white list.

[ErikO, posts: 31]

I'm not sure what you mean by a white list, but I agree that any new fish identified would not be on their Conditional List unless it was petitioned and accepted.

Here is the list

http://hawaii.gov/hdoa/admin-rules/subt ... AR-71C.pdf

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

By a white list I meant a list of allowed species, as opposed to a black list, which would be a list of unallowed species.

[ErikO, posts: 31]

That makes sense.

If the sp indicates that it hasn't been described, how does that relate to say L333? Isn't the L333 label a description like the Zebra description on the L046?

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

If the sp indicates that it hasn't been described, how does that relate to say L333? Isn't the L333 label a description like the Zebra description on the L046?

They may not be using L-numbers, which are basically a common name, as opposed to a scientific name. By contrast, Hypancistrus zebra is the actual scientific name of the zebra plec (thus, the L-number L046 is technically required).

[Narwhal72, posts: 141]

That's the issue right there. Hawaii and Maine are the only states in the U.S. with a "white" list. Which only allows specifically named and approved species to be imported. Australia also uses this type of system. L333 is not a scientifically described species yet and would not be able to be added to the list until it is. And then would of course need to be petitioned to the state to be added to the list. H. zebra is described and that is why it is on the list.

Most states use a "black" list system which bans the import of specific species that are known or may present a threat to the environment. Black lists are better for hobbyists but white lists are preferred by preservationists.

Andy

[ErikO, posts: 31]

All good info, but bad for my chances of importing L333. What is the current process for scientifically describing a species?

[racoll, posts: 4494]

What is the current process for scientifically describing a species?

Good question. I will break this down in steps in case it is of any interest to anyone. Steps wouldn't necessarily follow this order.

(1) get permission from agencies, governments etc to collect fish.

(2) go the place(s) where they are found in the wild, collect as many as possible from as wide an area as possible, along with any similar species.

(3) correctly preserve them for study.

(4) get hold of all scientific publications relating to closely related species.

(5) get hold of preserved specimens of all closely related species, preferably the "types" (specimens previous descriptions were based on)

(6) work out if someone has already described them.

(7) take measurements, photos, study all specimens in detail.

(8) justify that the fish are different enough to warrant being a new species (independent evolving lineages).

(9) write this all up into a manuscript.

(10) submit manuscript to a scientific journal.

(11) wait for reviews from peers.

(12) change manuscript after comments from peers.

(13) wait for publication.

(14) published! we have a new species!

As you can see, the process is not simple at all, and any one of these steps can take between a few weeks and several years to resolve. The process can indeed take many years from start to finish.

Another problem, is that there are very few people (scientists) qualified to carry out this work. This is because funding has been dramatically slashed for this kind of work. Given that in over 250 years, humans have described only 2 million of probably well over 20 million species, a lot of people feel that it is a pointless exercise and a massive waste of money to continue with any further (now we have already described the obvious and "important" species).

[racoll, posts: 4494]

I talked with the fresh water fish specialist for the state and he told me that none of the Hypancistrus Sp are allowed in. First dumb question, what does Sp stand for?

There is another important, but subtle difference here.

As already mentioned, "sp." means either an undescribed or unidentified single species, but "spp." is plural, and can apply to both described and undescribed species.

[ErikO, posts: 31]

Thank you for the info.

"Another problem, is that there are very few people (scientists) qualified to carry out this work. This is because funding has been dramatically slashed for this kind of work. Given that in over 250 years, humans have described only 2 million of probably well over 20 million species, a lot of people feel that it is a pointless exercise and a massive waste of money to continue with any further (now we have already described the obvious and "important" species)."

That's what I was afraid of.

[zipper, posts: 54]

You are better off petitioning to Hawaii Dept of Agriculture to allow all Hypancistrus for import.

[ErikO, posts: 31]

Agreed.

I'm still trying to determine the differance between the L046 and the L333 other than color.

Erik

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

Agreed.

I'm still trying to determine the differance between the L046 and the L333 other than color.

Erik

Color pattern is the primary difference between all Hypancistrus species.