Is L 173 a unique specie or hybrid ?

[har_eh, posts: 71]

Could also take in consideration that some species are still evolving. Who really knows when species have reached the end of their evolutionary path?

[Zeno, posts: 102]

Could also take in consideration that some species are still evolving. Who really knows when species have reached the end of their evolutionary path?

I agree if you mean the evolution path of the natural crossbreeds ?

Further I think Yann is right; when you see pictures of local fish traders it's not unusual that fish, which comes into the boat, has to be released for one reason or another a few hundred kilometer further up or downstream.

[MatsP]

I agree if you mean the evolution path of the natural crossbreeds ?

This is NOT the typical form of evolution.

What evidence do you actually have that they are hybrids? Or is this just something like "They look very similar to a described species, but not quite, and come from roughly the same place, so they must be hybrids"?

Mitochondrial DNA is not the whole picture. Humans and chimpanzees are quite closely related, but we've been separate species approximately 4 million years.

--
Mats

[racoll, posts: 4494]

Sure it's only natural to be inquisitive about the biology of the creatures we keep, but these kind of threads always irritate me somewhat. This kind of wild and frequently uninformed speculation often gets repeated later as fact.

What evidence do you actually have that they are hybrids? Or is this just something like "They look very similar to a described species, but not quite, and come from roughly the same place, so they must be hybrids"?

Hybridisation is as plausible an explanation as any other idea, but Mats is right. The only fact is that there's no evidence whatsoever, other than these fish looking a bit like what you might expect a hybrid to look like if you were to imagine one.

[Janne]

Regarding the Hypancistrus "species" in the Rio Xingu, one thing comes into my mind, since they are genetically (mitochondrial) identical

Not true, give some time and there will be some articles on this subject.

Boat accident occur quite often...fishes from a different place suddenly find themselves in a new spots where they were not...how a little hundreds can affect a wild population...I mean first collection were back 1990's, 20 years is fair enough to have "hybrids"

More likely scenario, IBAMA make a fiscal at Altamira and find species not allowed for export, they release the fish in the river at Altamira, similar they do in Manaus where we find a lot of species caught far far away from that "locality". But, this cannot be the only truth...

Anyway, yesterday I received a hybrid between L14 and L253, it's not uncommon to find hybrids among pleco's. Most odd fish and known species are under research and we do provide the federal university with fish, mostly cichlids and pleco's and I hope this cooperation and project will bring some missing info we don't have today.

Janne

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

Could also take in consideration that some species are still evolving. Who really knows when species have reached the end of their evolutionary path?

All species are still evolving, the only end to evolution is extinction.

[Unungy, posts: 648]

I get more excited when pictures are posted on L173 topics.

[Zeno, posts: 102]

This is NOT the typical form of evolution.

What evidence do you actually have that they are hybrids? Or is this just something like "They look very similar to a described species, but not quite, and come from roughly the same place, so they must be hybrids"?

Mitochondrial DNA is not the whole picture. Humans and chimpanzees are quite closely related, but we've been separate species approximately 4 million years.

--
Mats

I agree with you Mats ... this is not the typical evolution but what i was trying to say was that for example L46 will be still the same fish in 20-30 years. At short time we will see rather evolutions in the patterns of the natural crossbreeds.

Furthermore, I can't proof there are lots of Hypan hybrids in the Xingu but can you state this is certainly not the case ? We are discussing the most likely situation in our experiance (including in what we see that happens in our tanks), because if we have to wait untill a scientist will do all this work we are already dead and buried.

You like to make comparisons. When you put some African, Chinese, English ... people on an island you will have some hybrids very soon

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

There's great variation in what we see in the Xingu, but just because there is a mixture of a bunch of different color patterns doesn't mean there is hybridization between species. Another possibility is it could be a single species that is simply extremely variable in coloration, and they're just interbreeding normally.

Just to be clear, hybridization refers specifically to interbreeding between species. By definition, two humans mating is not considered hybridization. Mixed-race people are not hybrids. Humans are an example of a species with variable outward appearance. Perhaps this is the case with Hypancistrus, or perhaps there are separate species that are hybridizing. We simply do not know.

On the other hand, what Yann said earlier about people moving fish around does throw a wrench in the debate. However, hybridization in this case is not increasing species diversity, it is destroying species boundaries.

Unfortunately, you are right about the fact that scientific study is going to be slow on answering this question. On the other hand, there are multiple hypotheses, and the only way to know which one may be right or wrong is to test them by collecting evidence. We can talk all we want but current evidence does not support nor refute either a single highly polymorphic species or multiple species that have recently begun hybridizing. This is something that can only be tested with something like a genetic analysis.

[Yann]

Regarding the Hypancistrus "species" in the Rio Xingu, one thing comes into my mind, since they are genetically (mitochondrial) identical

Not true, give some time and there will be some articles on this subject.

Well like I said before, zebra and inspector seems to be well differentiated, which is not the case for all the other material he had...impossible to tell appart a bunch of "species" with genetic analysis...still the colour might be different

Boat accident occur quite often...fishes from a different place suddenly find themselves in a new spots where they were not...how a little hundreds can affect a wild population...I mean first collection were back 1990's, 20 years is fair enough to have "hybrids"

More likely scenario, IBAMA make a fiscal at Altamira and find species not allowed for export, they release the fish in the river at Altamira, similar they do in Manaus where we find a lot of species caught far far away from that "locality". But, this cannot be the only truth...

I understand you working in the trade implies that the IBAMA is seen as the problem, like I am sure what you say also happened, I think it is a bit hypocritical to undervalue the impact of the trade...how many fish has been put back in the river in major trade companies because these fish had no commercial values.
On the Rio Negro I saw quite a lot of wreckage of ship that are no to carry goods and among them fishes for the trading companies.

At Turkys I saw a bunch of Tricogaster awaiting to be shiped aboard...I though they were doing farming for the local buisness, but it was actually fish brought by fishermen...they collected them in the rivers...I doubt the IBAMA was the one who put them there!!

Cheers
Yann

[Zeno, posts: 102]

@ Suckermouth

I'm not a biologist and I'm sure what you stated is true; but can't we leave it simple saying that if crossbreeding happens in our tanks it surely happens every day in the wild ? I think the info we obtained from Yann & Janne is very relevant and reliable ...

Greetz, Zeno

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

but can't we leave it simple saying that if crossbreeding happens in our tanks it surely happens every day in the wild ? I think the info we obtained from Yann & Janne is very relevant and reliable ...

Greetz, Zeno

No, IMO that's a dangerous and fantastical leap of faith. Hybridization can occur between things like H. zebra and L260 but that doesn't mean it happens in the wild. What Yann & Janne said about shipwrecks are possible scenarios, but again the proof is not there that it actual results in crossbreeding, although it definitely makes it much more possible. On the other hand, perhaps fish get introduced and compete poorly with resident species for mates. Hypancistrus depend highly on color pattern to recognize each other; H. contradens, H. lunaorum, and H. furunculus occur in the same stretch of the Rio Orinoco and don't interbreed, despite the fact they live in the same places. Thus, the possibility that Hypancistrus can also resist interbreeding can also be argued. All of this is just hypothetical until you have evidence.

Furthermore, even if what they say is true and it does result in crossbreeding, it could be argued that the hybridization is also geographically isolated and "unnatural" (since it is because of people it is happening), despite occuring in the natural habitat. Thus I would still argue that you should avoid crossbreeding.

[Zeno, posts: 102]

Thanks for your clarification Suckermouth !
In fact, I didn't know that Hypans recognize each other strongly on colour pattern.

Zeno

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

Well to be fair it's also just a hypothesis, but color pattern is a striking difference between the Orinoco species that they likely use for recognition.

[Janne]

Well like I said before, zebra and inspector seems to be well differentiated, which is not the case for all the other material he had...impossible to tell appart a bunch of "species" with genetic analysis...still the colour might be different

I don't know whom you talking about but is all varieties of Hypancistrus collected by this person in all known locations for Hyapancistrus species in Rio Xingu, Rio Iriri and some smaller tributaries or is it fish bought in a shop?

I understand you working in the trade implies that the IBAMA is seen as the problem, like I am sure what you say also happened, I think it is a bit hypocritical to undervalue the impact of the trade...how many fish has been put back in the river in major trade companies because these fish had no commercial values.

No, totally the opposite, IBAMA is not the problem, the laws is not the problem and if I can I help them to make a better work I do what I can to improve. Problem is local employed people (not all but many enough) without any education about nature, species, habitats and so further. Same things happens when federal police "catch" a fishermen with fish he should not either have or have been collected in protected areas, where they catch him is where they put the fish back in the river. The problem with companies putting back fish on no value is very local oriented, Manaus is terrible on this but to be honest... that was probably a few years ago since Manaus exporters face large problems not afford to pay and receive fish without value any longer.

On the Rio Negro I saw quite a lot of wreckage of ship that are no to carry goods and among them fishes for the trading companies.

Yes, it's not allowed for the ferries that transport people that also bring fish at the same time, only people or only live fish, when the police at fiscal check the ferries and find live fish at the same time they transport people they give a fine to the shipper and put the fish back in the river... at the spot they make the fiscal.

What Yann & Janne said about shipwrecks are possible scenarios, but again the proof is not there that it actual results in crossbreeding, although it definitely makes it much more possible.

If and when this happen most fishes will not survive, some does and create a new locality of that specie but I really don't think they would crossbreed with another specie that already occupay that particular habitat.

On the other hand, perhaps fish get introduced and compete poorly with resident species for mates. Hypancistrus depend highly on color pattern to recognize each other; H. contradens, H. lunaorum, and H. furunculus occur in the same stretch of the Rio Orinoco and don't interbreed, despite the fact they live in the same places.

The variety in Xingu is much more than just pattern, size of eyes, position of eyes, color of eyes, body shapes, shape of fins etc. if the pattern are similar and all other is different... will they interbreed? H. contradens, H. lunaorum and H. furunculus is not found in the same locality or even the same river but they are found in tributaries to Rio Orinoco... I may be wrong but the exporters I know that ship these species do receive them from different rivers far away from each other.

Janne

[Janne]

I don't find it now and I'm a little tired but I read somewhere where someone mentioned Hemiancistrus sabaji and the widely distribution in the Amazon area... no one so far know if this is the same specie in Guyana, French Guyana, Venezuela, Colombia and Brazil, north and south of the Amazon river in all states in Brazil with borders to the Amazon river with localities as far away as all the green with black stripes (Panaque nigrolineatus) that are considered to be different species with the same distribution as H. sabaji... has not so much to do with interbreeding but show how much we maybe still need to investigate until we know the truth, if we ever will know.

Janne

[Suckermouth, posts: 1520]

Color pattern evolves much more readily than many other physical traits, and it's also one of the most obvious that we as humans can key in on. That said, a fish with "color pattern being the same and all else different" is kind of vague, because obviously it still has to be a Hypancistrus so it can't be all that different. In such a theoretical case, it's hard to know.

I don't know what the exporters are doing, but we do have some specimens of H. contradens, H. furunculus, and H. lunaorum that were found in the same localities in the Rio Ventuari.

[Janne]

By mistake I closed the window with my reply and now I need to sleep, before that, just shortly, both H. debilittera and L340 are collected in rivers in Colombia and also in different rivers and not in the same river, far away from each other floating from west to east into Orinoco.

H. contradens and H. lunaorum is 2 other species with different "spots", they would never interbreed with H. furunculus...

Janne

[Acanthicus, posts: 443]

H. contradens and H. lunaorum is 2 other species with different "spots", they would never interbreed with H. furunculus...

L 201 x L 333 and L 28 x H. debilittera are also known to interbreed. So why shouldn`t these?

[Yann]

I don't know whom you talking about but is all varieties of Hypancistrus collected by this person in all known locations for Hyapancistrus species in Rio Xingu, Rio Iriri and some smaller tributaries or is it fish bought in a shop?

The collection implies collected samples and aquarium specimens

No, totally the opposite, IBAMA is not the problem, the laws is not the problem and if I can I help them to make a better work I do what I can to improve. Problem is local employed people (not all but many enough) without any education about nature, species, habitats and so further. Same things happens when federal police "catch" a fishermen with fish he should not either have or have been collected in protected areas, where they catch him is where they put the fish back in the river. The problem with companies putting back fish on no value is very local oriented, Manaus is terrible on this but to be honest... that was probably a few years ago since Manaus exporters face large problems not afford to pay and receive fish without value any longer.

Actually an exporter from Belem also confirmed this, while I witness it myself in Manaus 10 years ago. By then boat would carry goods, fish and people, also witness it myself. Sure the people aren't educated regarding this, but things are better here either or in the USA, look at Python, Pterygoplichthys, Channa etc.. in the USA, Nile Perch in the Victoria lake, Tilapia in madagascar, lobster and red ear turtle in europe...to name a few...

If and when this happen most fishes will not survive, some does and create a new locality of that specie but I really don't think they would crossbreed with another specie that already occupay that particular habitat.

I think this is widely underestimate...I doubt they were hundreds of Tricogaster put in the water near Manaus...still you ll find a lot more now...as long as the parameters are highly similar...look people have managed to breed zebra in rift lake cichlid tanks...these fishes show great adaptibility...again...I doubt the problem is from the fish put back in the water at the wrong place a month ago that made all this...but 10-20 years ago...we hardly knew a thing about them, we were not monitoring things as we do today

On the other hand, perhaps fish get introduced and compete poorly with resident species for mates. Hypancistrus depend highly on color pattern to recognize each other; H. contradens, H. lunaorum, and H. furunculus occur in the same stretch of the Rio Orinoco and don't interbreed, despite the fact they live in the same places.

Maybe...we aren't so sure about it..maybe it happens and we don't know...how would you see the differences with 2 look a like species...crossbreed can happen...and if the "real L201 was the result of it...
Also many crossbreeding in Hypancistrus has been documented and offspring prove to be fertile and can even crossbreed with another Hybrids of 2 differents species...

Also one thing I have noticed, since I had once an accidental crossbreeding between L66 and L136, with both sex present for both species...still the male L136 was highly submissive so the female found a way to breed with the dominant male of the tank, which was the L66...since the frontier between the species is very small...crosses can occur quite a lot.

back to the genetic...this friend told me also you could not differentiate L260 from L262 only by mitochondrial analysis...they are exactly the same...

The variety in Xingu is much more than just pattern, size of eyes, position of eyes, color of eyes, body shapes, shape of fins etc. if the pattern are similar and all other is different... will they interbreed?

Also something could be said about what science consider to be a species and what hobbyist consider to be a species...remember it is also a buisness, there is a need for new fish...and finally the little single variation is considered to be a new "species" by hobbyists and get a new number...and it will be sold to a bigger price than if he would get an old number...the human exemple is a good one because it is the biggest expression of variability, size, colour, still we are one single species and nobody disagree...except for some on far end of political views...but that is another debate...

Science put the gold nugget within Baryancistrus xanthellus...some might disagree some not...again depending on the definition of species by science or by hobbyist...one thing that is often forgotten by hobbyist is that a species has some variability...and all this can also be affected by disease, injuries, misformation which would affect the overall look...I had Panaqolus that had a broken dorsal fin...it grew back but the pattern was totally different that what was before or seen in other none injured individuals...

Cheers
Yann