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The results: Honestly, I would have been willing to accept the delaminated caves IF (A) there weren't gaping holes in the caves and (B) the caves wouldn't dissolve in water... I don't think that's too much to ask, do you?

Cheers, Eric

I see progress Eric, you have learned a couple of things not to do. After Cataclysm, I have a club member who is pretty interested in the idea of building his own caves for some catfish he has. So we are looking at building a Kiln for wood firing on his property. This will probable take through the winter and a first firning in the spring.

Marine590622 wrote:I see progress Eric, you have learned a couple of things not to do.

Yes indeed... And thanks so much for noticing. At this rate, pretty soon I should be able to teach an entire semester-long ceramics/pottery class at my college. Okay, granted - nobody will be able to make anything when the class is over; but everyone will know what NOT to do.

I've got an appointment with the artist to fire my "unsalted" pieces tomorrow morning, barring unforeseen distractions. By end of Tuesday, I'll either be showing off my successful creations... or preparing my next lecture for my class entitled, "What NOT to do."

Marine590622 wrote:After Cataclysm, I have a club member who is pretty interested in the idea of building his own caves for some catfish he has. So we are looking at building a Kiln for wood firing on his property. This will probable take through the winter and a first firning in the spring.

Good luck with your kiln. The idea has great possibilities. Based on my limited experiences so far, my one piece of advice would be that you seek out and consult with experienced pottery artists before and while you move forward. There's no substitute for personal experience.

Cheers, Eric

I don't know if you have heard of Charlie Grimes or not, but when sponge filters were first coming out, he decided to make his own rather then purchasing from an aquarium store to save money. He ended up finding sheets of foam that were designed to be used for patio furniture. A couple of days of work with a tile saw, pvc and foam and he had made enough filters to convert his entire fish room. He plops the first one in an aquarium and watches for a while everything looks good and so he converts the entire fishroom over and then goes out and works in the garden and the yard for the rest of the day. That evening when he goes down to feed he finds all of his fish dead or dying.

Hence was born the "Dead Fish Talk"

In honor of Charlie, our club starts each meeting with a contest called the Grimey's where members stand up and tell on themselves about the new and interesting ways in which we have endangered fish, endangered ourselves, broken glass, etc, etc.

The point being if I tell how I flooded my basement, and you get to hear the story, you can learn from my mistake. At the end of the stories the winner is selected by a voice vote of the members in attendance, If you win, you get a key chain with a fish skeleton embosed with the words, Fish Die, Glass Breaks.

And yes I have been researching building kilns, I am looking for someone in my area who has built a kiln, and I have signed up for a ceramics newsletter where different ideas and approaches are discussed.

No, I wasn't familiar with Charles Grimes, but I like the story of how you've applied Charles' lesson to your club meetings. Indeed, I didn't say people wouldn't learn anything from my mistakes, I just said they wouldn't learn how to make any pottery.

I met with the artist today; he didn't fire my caves yet, but he took my caves from me and he will put them through his kiln. He also gave me some ideas about how I might pre-treat my one remaining salted cave (the 2-cave stone) before firing them in the BBQ ... Hopefully this one doesn't pop apart like the first two.

I also bought from him some "real" potter's clay, clay which is definitely safe to fire in a kiln. It's back to the drawing board to try making some additional caves.

Cheers, Eric

P.S.,

Marine590622 wrote:our club starts each meeting with a contest called the Grimey's where members stand up and tell on themselves about the new and interesting ways in which we have endangered fish, endangered ourselves, broken glass, etc, etc.

Are you saying that you hold this contest at the start of each meeting? From this I infer that multiple members have sufficiently interesting disaster parables each month to justify a group vote on which is the best (or worst, depending on your perspective)? Wow! That makes me wonder just how bad you guys blow it each month with your fish! LOL! Heck, forget global warming, climate change, and dams across the Xingu, we need to keep the fish away from Wisconsin! LOLOLOL (just jokin')

Well our guest speaker often chimes in, we have even had a few speakers win the keychain.. We have a rule that you can win multiple times, but you only get one keychain, so after you have your keychain the game is then to block others from getting a keychain.

Okay, that sounds more promising, regarding the welfare of the fish and the injury rate of the fishkeepers!

UPDATE: On the advice of the artist, I tried pre-drying my one remaining salted piece (the rock with two caves) by baking it in my oven for a few hours, slowly increasing the heat from 100F-150-200-250F, then I let the cave cool down within the oven. After that, I placed it in my barbeque and fired it as before, this time for a full hour in the coals, and I piled coals on top of the rock in an effort to homogenize the heat.

The good news is, the pre-drying was mostly successful -there was very little popping this time and the rock survived the baking mostly intact. There was a small piece popped off the top (which I could glue back on if everything else was good) and a large area of the floor of the cave broken out on one side. This also wouldn't be bad as it would face down to the substrate and wouldn't affect the "cave-like" nature of the rock.

The bad news is, the heat wasn't even and so the rock didn't fully harden. The bottom, which got so hot that part of it cracked away, also got hot enough to solidify the clay, such that it seemed to be water-proof. But the top of the cave must not have gotten hot enough. I couldn't scratch it (which is supposed to be a sign that heating was good enough) but when I put it under water and rubbed it, it started turning to mud and parts of it crumbled.

The take home lesson for me is that the heat control in my barbeque is so difficult and uneven that it's not worth it to try this again. Moreover, I have no conclusive evidence that the original clay I used was good for firing. So I'll just use the good clay given to me by the artist and let him fire my pieces in a real kiln.

Cheers, Eric

Hi Eric they're not 'home made ' but i saw for sale here in uk oak breeding caves at a shop called Orwell aquatics they will ship abroad but at what cost i could not say worth looking at though. The guy I got my L397s from has these oak caves for his breeding adults he's had lots of success with them and the chewed up oak caves are being used regulary for breeding by his. Creating wooden caves is sometimes done by drilling holes with a large drillbit in bogwood and the fish will choose their caves. I think in terms of panaquolus a wooden cave (whether you buy it drill holes in bogwood use bamboo tubes or find ways of making a wooden cave is what I've seen in successful panaquolus breeding.

Thanks Teresa,

Yes others (e.g., @Mol_PMB) have also used and recommended the drilled out oak branches for spawning caves.

I like the idea but so far I haven't tried that; my tanks are mostly small (20 gallons or less), so my pieces of wood are likewise pretty small and narrow, not really suitable for drilling holes (1-1.5" diameter, 3-6" deep) into.

I must admit that much of this endeavor to make my own spawning caves (not just for my Panaqolus, but also for my bristlenoses, for my oil cats, and for any future purchases (Hemiancistrus guahiborum, L397, plus eventually some hypans or Peckoltia) is driven not just by the fact that they aren't available locally in stores (I can find them on the internet), but really also "just because" - to try something new and to expand my skill base, to express my imagination and creativity, and to improve the decorations in my tanks - just for fun.

At some point, most likely if and when I buy a bigger tank, I will make some caves which are drilled-out pieces of wood. For example, I recently picked up a couple of intact grapevines (whole plants, but dead) which had been uprooted at a nearby vineyard. Those will need a few months to dry out, but once they are dry, I think they would make nice centerpieces in some tanks, and they are thick enough that they can be drilled out.

I realize that this thread is getting pretty long, and I expect it to get longer (I WILL have victory over these caves!); and with all the failures along the way, perhaps some people may not have the patience or interest to follow along. But for me the joy is in the ride, not just in the destination, as the saying goes.

Cheers, Eric

bekateen wrote:...I must admit that much of this endeavor to make my own spawning caves ... is driven not just by the fact that they aren't available locally in stores (I can find them on the internet), but really also "just because" - to try something new and to expand my skill base, to express my imagination and creativity, and to improve the decorations in my tanks - just for fun.

...For example, I recently picked up a couple of intact grapevines (whole plants, but dead) which had been uprooted at a nearby vineyard. Those will need a few months to dry out, but once they are dry, I think they would make nice centerpieces in some tanks, and they are thick enough that they can be drilled out.

I realize that this thread is getting pretty long, and I expect it to get longer (I WILL have victory over these caves!); and with all the failures along the way, perhaps some people may not have the patience or interest to follow along. But for me the joy is in the ride, not just in the destination, as the saying goes.

Cheers, Eric

Not to worry Eric, there is a least one of us out here who can enjoy the journey.

By the time you finally make the cave that satisfies you, figuring in time, energy and materials you will probably have managed to make a cave that cost a few $100. Unfortunately, you probably could have bought one very similar for $10 or less.

But who am I to talk. I came up with a design variation for a Matten filter which should not take me much more than a dozen hours to create and put into place. But that doesn't compare to spending well over 150 hours one summer to design, build and install a terrace system for a planted tank.

No wonder so many people think we fishnuts are nuts.............

TwoTankAmin wrote:By the time you finally make the cave that satisfies you, figuring in time, energy and materials you will probably have managed to make a cave that cost a few $100. Unfortunately, you probably could have bought one very similar for $10 or less.

True, if we factor in our time as money (e.g., how much money could I earn at my own job in that amount of time), you're absolutely correct.

But if you are willing to count the time as recreational or mental "therapy" (and also an opportunity for personal enlightenment - who can put a price on that?! ), then the actual material cost is much lower.

For ALL of the caves I destroyed so far, I've invested only about $16 for 20 pounds of clay (most of which is still not used). I'll probably end up throwing away that old clay, so there's $16 in the trash. The new, superior clay is another $14 (but for that price I get 25 pounds of clay instead of 20 pounds). When I have more time to make new caves, I will be able to make MANY caves out of that 25 pounds of clay - granted some may break, some may just come out poorly; but I expect many will be good. I'll keep most, and trade the rest at my LFSs and at my aquarium society.

I don't know what the artist will charge for firing, but I doubt it will be much. So again, perspective is everything. Real dollar cost, relatively low. Time cost - enormous! And to quote a credit card commercial, knowing that some catfish just spawned in a cave that you made by hand? "PRICELESS!"

TwoTankAmin wrote:No wonder so many people think we fishnuts are nuts.............

Indeed!

Cheers, Eric

My son calls us fishgeeks, go figure.

Hi Eric i refer you to the cotM article from June 2007 and here again in terms of panaquolus breeding I've got my 7 oak caves now and 8 fish but in my piece of bogwood I have a natural hole that one has taken up as a cave but unfortunately it's downward direction means any eggs probably wouldn't stay in. But a long chunk of thick wood with caves pointing in correct direction would be ideal and I'd pay good money/ or put in the effort into get something like this may even take up the challenge and do the latter.

Thanks Teresa for the reference. I've seen that COTM and also the photos on the CLOG page, I think that is a really nice example of wood holes in a large piece of wood. I have no objections to caves in wood pieces; in fact I think they look even more natural than the best clay caves. The challenge is that you have to find a piece of would which is large enough in width and depth to allow you to drill a cave of appropriate diameter and depth. Most of my tanks are 10, 15, and 20 gallons in size, so relatively small; they wouldn't be good candidates for a piece of wood which might displace anywhere from 20-30% of the water volume of the tank, so I haven't gone that route up until now. The closest I've come to wood caves is to use bamboo which, although not as "woody" as Oak and other varieties of trees/shrubs, is still a natural plant material. In fact, my clown plecos seem quite happy to spawn in bamboo caves.

When the opportunity arises (correct species of fish, good piece of wood, and aquarium of sufficient size), I will undoubtedly delve into wood caves too. They are really neat, and to be honest, IMHO few decorations look as nice in an aquarium as natural wood. Thanks for cheering for wood caves!

Cheers, Eric

UPDATE: Hooray! The first three of my caves to be fired by the artist with a kiln are home and were successful. The "rock" shaped structure has a couple of cracks in the clay, where the clay retracted as it dried, but no chipping and no breakage. And they turned a mix of brownish-orange and white after firing. In the photos attached, I soaked the caves in water so you can see how they look when wet.

Before I add them to my aquaria, I'm going to let them sit in a water-filled bucket overnight in order to allow any (unknown) chemicals to leach out of them which might be prone to do so, even though I have no reason to suspect any problems... Better safe than sorry.

Cheers, Eric

P.S., Going back to the subject of cost, the artist charged me almost nothing: Because I told him I had no time constraint, he was able to set my caves off to the side until he had a bunch of other items to fire, and then he just stuck mine into the kiln along with all the other pieces (in other words, he didn't have to run the kiln with only my three items inside). In the end, he charged me only $1 USD per item to fire them. In my opinion, that's a BARGAIN!

So are those the remainder of what you made with the inferior clay?

Marine590622 wrote:So are those the remainder of what you made with the inferior clay?

Yes. Originally, I made six caves: three with salt (the stone with two caves, and then two separate caves, a D- and burrito-style), and three without salt (the three shown in this most recent post). All three salted caves were fired in my barbeque unsuccessfully (as described in earlier posts in this thread).

I still have lots of the inferior clay left, and it looks like it would be perfectly okay to use this again. But as I mentioned, the artist prefers the other "good" clay he sold directly to me, and I get more of the good clay for less money than I spent on the inferior clay. So for now, when I get around to making more caves (which hopefully is very soon), I'll use his good clay. I'll save my inferior clay and use it on other projects, or when I run out of the good clay.

Unfortunately, he still hadn't gotten an order of the other color of the good clay for me, so I'm hesitant to make too many new caves, because I really like the marbled look I obtained by mixing clays.

Cheers, Eric

Check with him and see if would be willing to let you mix masons dyes into your clay.

Would they add any toxicity to the clay? Or are they safe for fish?

Have you put the caves you have already made with your clown plecos yet - have they spawned in them? I'm just interested to know when they do

bekateen wrote:Would they add any toxicity to the clay? Or are they safe for fish?

I have used mason dyes with cement that I used to make a structure for a friend. we did not have any problems with toxicity.

You could research the metals used in the dyes. I would not use any of the greens that I found as they all used some from of copper

On another note, My wife and I took a throwing class at a local studio, and I purchased 25 lbs of his clay to work on some sculptures at home that he is then going to assist me with making plaster molds to duplicate them with pressed slab or slip casting as appropriate.

Dried clay being much easier to carve then stone, here is what I am working on now. I have made a number of clay clyinders which I am letting dry. I will then carve them and make plaster casts, which I can then press clay slabs into to make copies of the original carving,

I am hoping to duplicate the following, and then when I make my copies leave them hollow.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q ... 1091933840

Cool. They look complicated, but they'll also look really nice as tank decor (like the Easter Island heads).

Not really all that complicated.
Carve the dried clay to whatever level of detail you want to duplicate.
cast one side
cast the other side
at that point you have a mold that you can pres the two slabs of clay into. let them set a little and the plaster pulls moisture from the clay acting as a release.

score the two edges wet down with slip and press them together.

let dry. clean up the seam, cut a hole in the back.

Bisque fired they are ready to use.

Glase as desired for personnel taste.

I love it.

Yeah me too good thread. I've really now got to look into making my own pleco caves. Reason- ammount of money i've spent, just on caves alone, since i got the L397s. But they're worth it - just hoping they will breed in them.

Here's a H. guahiborum* using one of the caves. Although he/she is half-way out of the cave here, usually he/she sits all the way in the cave, with its body curled like a "C" inside the cave. These caves were meant for the short-bodied Centromochlus, not for longer-bodied fish like plecos. Definitely need to make more caves, deeper caves, for the plecos, but for now, this works well in the quarantine tank.

Cheers, Eric

* which, by the way, are doing very nicely - their fins are filling in and the broken pectoral spines have healed and started regrowing. Bellies are also full (no longer skin-and-bones), although I really haven't figured out what they like to eat most.