Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

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LauraG
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Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Hello, I am somewhat new to aquariums (6 years) up from 40 gallon planted, now to a 120 gallon planted tank. A couple years ago, I had 2) L183 juveniles for about a year but lost them with a heater malfunction. I wanted to try them again, and got 2 young ones form the LFS, and they seemed to be active and doing good, but died after about 3 weeks. They were somewhat thin like they had not been eating, their color was black when they died within a couple days of each other, and I saw no other defects. I have about 60 gallons R.O. in the tank, with an aquaclear 110 and 70, that run over a waterfall into the tank. Extra aeration with Whisper 100 with 4 small air stones. Furniture is rock and 1 small piece Malaysian drift wood, and the tank has been running for about 6 months. Tank Mates are 6 synodontis multipunctatus, 2 female german blue rams, 1 male bolivian ram, 3 kuhli loaches, 4 fancy male guppies, 2 Siamese algea eaters (female and male) and 4 reticulated hillstream loaches (3 Female, 1 male). Plants are mostly Anubis, Bolbitis Heudelotii, a hygro pinnatifida, and some grass. There are a few plants that I don't know what they are, and some xmas moss growing on the driftwood. Water parameters are 0 nitrite, 0 phosphate, 0 ammonia, nitrates are 5 - 10 with 3) 5 gallon water changes weekly, oxygen is between 8 and 12ppm, ph is 7.4 steady. TDS is at 125, and the substrate is 2" caribsea under 2" fluorite, with some small pebbles in the unplanted portion of the tank.
I know my parameters aren't perfect for breeding L183's, but from what I have read, they are in acceptable range, to start with adding them to the aquarium.
I don't want any more L183's to die, so am reluctant to try any more until I know what I am doing wrong. Water flow is fast with a Hydor 850 GPH power head. I feed daily blood worms morning, shrimp pellets (wardley and omega one) and veggie rounds (omega one) at night. All food gone by morining. I occasionally feed live black worms as a treat, and a couple small ciclid sinking pellets. I have had everyone for a couple years, except the guppies, and with the larger tank increased from 2 synodontis multipunctatus to 6 with juveniles. Please help?
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

Hi, welcome to Planet Catfish!

Sorry to hear about your , often it is hard to get new fish to eat, especially if they are wild caught. Your tank setup seems ok to me, so do your water parameters, the only thing I would suggest is trying to change more water each week, maybe as a start you could increase your 3 * 5 gallon changes to 3 * 10 gallon? Personally I would aim for between 30 and 50% per week, so for your tank between 36 and 60 gallons.

If you want to try again I would suggest trying to feed different foods to the L183, the Repashy gel food mixes are highly recommended, for L183 I would recommend the following mixes, super green, soilent green, fruut luups, and occasionally bottom scratcher, or a mix of them. If you don't have access to these foods, I have found zucchini and sweet potato good for getting new fish to feed.

If you take a look at the link I added to the first line you will find more information about them.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, I found the super green and soilent green (glad soilent green is not like the movie...), but did not find fruut luups or what a bottom scratcher is. I can certainly try the first 2. Also, I have been soaking a Malaysian driftwood tree trunk, waiting for it to sink (and to cut it down so it will fit in the tank), and that will have 2 caves in it as well, so I will add it to the aquarium before I try again. Also, I am hoping to find some tank raised L183's, and if possible to speak to the breeder, maybe they can guide me on what they have had for water parameters and feeding regimen. I just want my fish to be happy, and maybe someday breed them if I can get the conditions right, all my other fish seem very content, and happy with the new tank. I will also increase the water changes, that makes sense to me also.

I read all the content on the website that I could find, is there a book that would have info on the L183's that you or anyone would recommend? There are several on the website, I am just not sure where to start.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by bekateen »

LauraG wrote: 12 Dec 2017, 21:35glad soilent green is not like the movie...
... or IS it? :)) :-\ :-O :- :-$

Cheers, Eric
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

That is what my husband said...
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

You can find most, if not all of the fish focused Repashy foods here: http://www.swisstropicals.com/food-brand/repashy/, (Repashy also make reptile foods).

If you can find some tank raised L183 they should be easier to care for than wild caught ones, keep an eye on the for sale section of the forum, you could also post in the wanted section once you are ready for the new fish if you don't see anything for sale near you.

I found this book https://www.planetcatfish.com/books/boo ... cle_id=371 very useful, it starts with an overview of L number catfish, habitats, feeding, and breeding, then lists them out by species and L number showing more detail for each fish. I'm not sure how easy it is to get in the US though.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thank you, this is very helpful, and I will be looking for a couple tank raised L183's as soon as my stump is in the tank and the water settles out. I am also hopeful that it may lower my PH somewhat, over time. So maybe I can get closer to perfect conditions. :)
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

I forgot to mention before, when you are ready for the new L183, I would suggest putting at least one cave per fish in the tank. It may make them feel more comfortable being able to hide, caves will also be needed if you want to breed them in future.

Caves can be made from sections of PVC pipe with end caps, porcelain tiles cut and glued together with aquarium safe silicone, or you should be able to find ready made clay 'pleco caves' fairly easily, they are usually around $5-6 for a size suitable for L183. I would suggest getting 3-4 caves with a couple different sizes, maybe 1.5 and 2 inch openings and about 6-7 inches long.

Good luck.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thanks, I am thinking that might have been my biggest issue. If they did not feel safe and hidden, maybe that is why they did not eat. I have seen the clay pleco caves, once full grown, will they still fit in the 1.5 to 2 inch openings? Or do I have to worry about them getting stuck? I definitely think the clay ones can be worked into the plants in several locations.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

I wouldn't worry about them getting stuck, the rule seems to be that the right cave size is a little bit bigger than the fish, and long enough to get 1.5 to 2 fish lengths in.

Some fish don't seem to mind as much and just pick what ever seems best, maybe a cave has more water flow past it, is more shaded, has an angle to it, etc. it might not be what we think to be the correct size, however other characteristics may mean its easier for them to care for the eggs/fry in that one.

For that reason, I try to pick the 'right' size, just a little bigger than the fish with 1.5 to 2 times the length of the fish, then pick one size down and one size up as well as the 'right' size, and see which they like. If nothing happens after a few months (assuming you have males and females which are well conditioned) you can move the caves around in the tank, then if that doesn't work after another few months, you could try getting different sizes of cave to try out.

As well as cave size and placement, there are many other factors which influence breeding so don't get too hung up on cave size, its just one of many things to experiment with. You should also consider, water (pH, hardness, tannins, temperature, flow), foods, air pressure (sometimes a big storm with low pressure can start breeding), disturbances around the tank (light, noise, etc.) if the tank is in a busy hallway they may be too stressed.

When you get your new fish just try and acclimatise them well, and keep things stable for several months while they settle in and start feeding, once the males start to have large bristles and the females look wider behind the pectoral fins you can start to think about triggers to spawn if needed.

In the past I have often tried many things, cold water changes, much softer water, different foods, simulated dry seasons, etc. without luck then I give up, and just continue as normal (50% water changes each week, and food 5 days a week) then a few months later there has been a spawn!
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thanks! Now that I know what fruut luups and bottom scratcher is, everything is starting to make more sense. I got 2 caves today (larger and smallish), and the trunk I am soaking in R.O. for a last time has a 1.5 inch hole into the 5 inch round hollow trunk. I am hoping to add it to the tank tomorrow. I am planning to post a pic of the tank as soon as I get the trunk settled, that is if I can figure out how to add a picture...
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Added my stump this morning, but it has a tendency to float, so I am holding it down with a couple rocks. Unfortunately the yellow rock blocks the cave entrance. Hopefully it will waterlog in a day or 2. My LFS has an adult L183 from California. They don't know if it is tank raised or wild and they think it is a male, but it is doing well in the store for about a week. I bought it, and asked them to hold it until Tuesday. I am hoping my repashy food will get here tomorrow, and the log stays down on it's own by then.
Question about fresh veggies, I read that raw is fine, just hold it down with a stainless rod...
Couldn't figure out how to add a pic yet, still trying. The other fish are crazy about the tree stump, it was so fun watching them today....
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

hope this works :-J


well, guess not. Though I added a pic, but not sure where it went, oh well
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

one more try[attachment=0]20171217_190221a.jpg[/attachment
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

Looks good, plenty of places to hide in there!

Was this taken during a water change or do you keep the water at that level permanently?
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

For the oxygen level, it stays about there, as the plans settle in, and give off more oxygen, the final hight will be a couple inches higher. The waterfall is pretty cool, and gives the house a nice background noise, without being too loud. We have the tank in an out of the way corner, so not too much traffic and noise, but we can see it easily.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

I will pick up my new L183 tomorrow, and will post a pic, maybe I can get help telling if it is a boy or girl. Got my repashy order today, so I should be all set. The water is stable, and the stump only needs the top rock to hold it down, so the cave in it, is exposed, and easy to get to.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

Cool, to give us the best chance of determining the sex, it would be great to have pictures from directly above, and the underside, if you can hold the fish out of the water, or up against the tank glass. Don't worry about the underside if you are concerned about stressing the fish, a good picture from above should be ok for us. If you can tell us the size it will give us a better chance.

Good luck, I hope it settles in and eats well. Is it a local tank raised fish or a wild imported one?
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

They don't know if it is tank raised or not, just that it is from California. It is about 3 inches long, and just transitioned to the tank. I mixed up some fruut luups, and put a small piece in that half of the tank. I have a divider in for now, otherwise my other fish will eat all the food. These was the best pic I could get.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

Nice fish, I would say it's a young male, give it a few months to settle in and I would expect the bristles to develop further. If that happens you'll need to start looking for a female!

Good luck.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

I picked up a organic zucchini, and sweet potato today, can you tell me if I need to do anything other that pour boiling water over the slice and stainless rod that weights it down? I just want to make sure he is eating and settled in for a few days before I pull the divider.

Thanks for the advice :)
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thanks, I picked up a sweet potatoe and organic zucchini today, and wanted to try a slice of one or the other tonight or tomorrow. I have a small stainless rod to hold the food down, do I need to do anything other than rinse and maybe pour some boiling water over the slice and rod, before I put it in the tank? I am hoping that if he is interested, I can see if it gets chewed on, and know for sure if he is eating.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

not sure what I did, can anyone see my question about how to feed the fresh veggies?

Thanks
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

I can see it twice!

For the zucchini I just wash the skin to make sure any dirt or pesticides, etc are gone, then cut it into pieces. Recently I've been scooping out the seeds as it seems the fish are more likely to eat the flesh that way. Then weigh it down with some stainless steel.

I peel sweet potato and cut it into slices, I've not found any need to cook either. I'd put them in at night, remove the zucchini the next morning, if you want to you can leave the sweet potato in for 48hrs or so as it takes much longer to soften than zucchini.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thanks!
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

So..., I have had him 2 days now, but am finding it difficult to know if he has eaten. I fed some fruit luups (about a dime size piece) and a couple different algea/shrimp pellets in his side on Tuesday. Last night, I did about the same but with bottom scratcher and added a piece of sweet potato. The gel is of course gone, but in my current, it could have dissolved, I don't see any pellets in the morning either, but no nibbles on the sweet potato. I plan to sit and watch the tank tomorrow night for any activity, because I will need to remove the divider in a few more days... my other fish are pretty cramped in right now, and I don't want them to start having issues. Any thoughts on how I find out if he is eating?

He also has 2 visitors, my female SAE (not sure how she got there, unless she jumped the divider, twice!), and a Kuhli (can't ever keep them out of anything...) I did think it was good to have a couple fish on his side, to get him used to them, but they are most likely eating at least some of the food.

He seems pretty active, as soon as I see his silhouette under a log root, he moves, so I know that is a good sign. Thought I might pick up some live blood worms tomorrow or Saturday...
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

The Repashy should still be there in the morning if nothing has tried to eat it, it may have broken down slightly but there will be something left, maybe look to see if it has got stuck in a corner or in bogwood, etc.

To check on fish feeding at night I use a cheap night vision (infra red) CCTV camera. Take a look at my thread here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=45609 and you'll see some videos I took. I find that if there is enough light for you to see the fish at night they are still very easy to spook if you are in the room.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

My finnex planted light goes quite dim, but set to 24/7 mode, never off completely. Do you know if the infra red will still work with some light? Very neat idea, especially whenever new fish arrive, but also to see what is happening after I go to bed.
I think he ate tonight, I got some live bloodworms and shrimp and veggie pellets under the root near where he hides. Couldn't see what he was eating, but he was belly down to the gravel and active. I think he might be getting slightly used to my peeking. If I stay still for about 5-10 min, he starts to get active, but the camera would be very useful too.
I think my female SAE ate the bottom scratcher tonight though...she was hovering over the stainless rod, that I put it on, and it is already gone. Pretty sure she doesn't need extra food though, she is quite large.
I think I will pull the divider, tomorrow, after the lights are up to full brightness for the day and the fish are quiet. I will still feed him at that end of the tank though, and the rest of the fish first at the other end of the tank.
I think it might be ok...but will invest in a camera to be sure.

When I see his silhouette, his fins are almost always up, that must be a good sign. If he does good for a month, I will definitely be looking for a semi-adult female. :)
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by MarcW »

I would be careful about feeding too much meaty food, I think L183 have a primarily vegetarian diet, a bit of meaty food won't do any harm, but I would try to keep it to once a week. A good food to give you a clue it's eating would be zucchini, they will typically scrape the skin off, which none of your other fish will, so you can be sure it was the L183.

I would also turn the light off at night, the fish don't need any extra light, they will be fine with just ambient light from the room/windows. Aquarium lights are just to help us see the fish and support any plants you might have. Especially when the fish are newly introduced, the darkness will help them settle and reduce stress.

The infrared camera will work with normal light, it only uses the infrared LEDs when there is no other light.

It sounds like it's getting some food and doing ok, so hopefully you are on the right track so far.
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Re: Very new to Forum's and am hoping for help

Post by LauraG »

Thanks, I will definitely turn off the light at night, if that is preferable for them. Now that I know he ate something, I was hoping to get into a normal feeding regimen. I was considering mostly veggie rounds, with a couple shrimp pellets, and for a treat a couple times a week, fresh veggies or the repashy. Is it a good idea to keep the fresh veggies available at all times, for now, until I know he has been nibbling on them. So far he hasn't tried them at all.
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