The "Jools' new fishroom post"

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The "Jools' new fishroom post"

Post by Jools »

Well, I thought I should start this thread as it's gotten off the drawing board and is slowly becoming a reality. Here's a pic taken today of the new fishroom as it stands.

Image

What you are looking at is the outside wall standing in the new living room. The oblong cut out that looks suspiciously like the size of a large tank is a cut-out that will back onto the fishroom behind. The window on the back is my existing fishroom which will extend into the space behind the wood.

I will post in the topic from time to time with updates.

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Post by Jools »

Here's another pic that gives the size of the project from the side of the house. That timber on the roof is the outline of the new roof.

Image

It's a lot new rooms so I can justify a new fishroom!

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Post by Shane »

Bro,
Keep us updated. Can't wait to hang out in there and drink coffee in the morning (after a tasty Clare made bacon sandwich).
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Post by Jools »

Shane wrote:Bro,
Keep us updated. Can't wait to hang out in there and drink coffee in the morning (after a tasty Clare made bacon sandwich).
-Shane
Will do, work has stopped now until the 3rd of January, what happens in January is the room gets properly formed and all the current tanks need moved out...

I shall have a bacon sandwich in your honour this weekend. Brown sauce all round!

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Post by Marc van Arc »

It's becoming quite a place. Looking good :D
Shane wrote: (after a tasty Clare made bacon sandwich)
Due to a rather short night I had to read the above sentence 3 times before I understood that it says Clare-made instead of tasty Clare :wink:
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Post by Shane »

Clare-made instead of tasty Clare
Are you sure that was what I meant? :wink:
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Post by Jools »

Well, I agree on both points.

Dragging us back to the fishroom, I'm currently thinking about drainage. The plan being that there will be open gutters along the front of tanks to take waste water away. I'm also hoping to collect rainwater from the roof and pipe it directly into the room - I'll run a goldfish tank off it for several months though to make sure it's safe.

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Post by Shane »

Drainage will be key. One option would be to just have a drain installed in the center of the room that has a removable grate. That way during water changes you could just pop up the grate and drain all the water away without carrying buckets.
I realize water is not an issue where you are, but another option would be to install a sink with the drainage just connected to a long piece of PVC with holes buried about 6 inches deep in the yard. That would give you a sink to work in and water the lawn with all the wastewater every week.

A rainwater idea...
http://www.gardeners.com/Downspout-Dive ... C=XNET8035

Just run this to a storage tank in the fishroom. The float will stop overflows yet always keep the collection barrel full.
Another option.
http://www.gardenwatersaver.com/

Available in the UK and cheap. Just buy a longer piece of hose.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Window-Door-Re ... idZ2QQtZkm
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Post by Jools »

There is a central floor drain designed in but it's for unplanned spills as opposed to removing water on a regular basis. The right hand side (where the black lancer tank is currently) will have a sink with a drain. The tank racking will have pipes or gutters attached so I can just siphon out of a tank or sump into them and it will drain away to under the sink. I prefer gutters as if I siphon out that prize dwarf banjo by mistake, I've got a better chance of retrieving him!

The big problem I've got with rainwater is that it's so dam cold. I was going to just have it flow 100% into the fishroom from the roof downpipe and overflow into the drain. However, if it rains for days, that means the rainwater store in the fishroom is going to get really cold and even drop the room temperature but most worryingly will evaporate like nuts unless it's into some sort of sealed container. I can't guarantee I'm going to be around to modify the flow.

However, collection of as much rainwater as possible removes a lot of need for other water processing.

Some work on the drawing board required!

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Post by Bas Pels »

As you are afraid of too much watervapour in the room (I think it will become a lot anyway) you could use a sealed container in the room, with an overflow for those days it rains too much

as the container is in the room, it will gradully get warm, and a tap can be made in the container to use the rainwater

This system can work with a 20 liter container, but also with a 1000 liter container - depending on roof size

Talking of roofs - I think you will have to pay much attention to the stuff the roof is made of. If the materials used are safe, your testgoldfish will be safe too
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Post by Shane »

The big problem I've got with rainwater is that it's so dam cold. I was going to just have it flow 100% into the fishroom from the roof downpipe and overflow into the drain. However, if it rains for days, that means the rainwater store in the fishroom is going to get really cold and even drop the room temperature but most worryingly will evaporate like nuts unless it's into some sort of sealed container. I can't guarantee I'm going to be around to modify the flow.
Agreed, that is why you need a system like one of the above where it does not take in any additional rainwater when full. Once full, the additional rainwater just bypasses th system. This should give it time to warm to room temp. A low wattage heater in the "rain barrel" is another option. Your water is already so soft, I am not sure how much additional rainwater you will need on hand to cut the tap water with.

This model is sealed
http://www.gardenwatersaver.com/
and looks to hold 50-55 gallons of rainwater. It has a tap that you could connect a house to and then just let gravity do the rest. If you need more than 50-55 gallons, the rain barrel could be put on a stand with another 55 gallon trash can (with lid) below it for additional storage. 100 gals of rainwater would go far, esp considering how often it rains up there.

Making additional barrels
http://www.gardenwatersaver.com/9.html
Linking barrels
http://www.gardenwatersaver.com/30.html
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Post by grokefish »

Looks cool Jools.
The only thing that worked really well in my last, failed attempt at a fish room was the drainage. It was so much easier than buckets.

Shane- surely attaching a house to it is going a bit too far. :wink:
It has a tap that you could connect a house to and then just let gravity do the rest. If you need more than 50-55 gallons, the rain barrel could be put on a stand with another 55 gallon trash can (with lid) below it for additional storage. 100 gals of rainwater would go far, esp considering how often it rains up there.
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Post by KnaveTO »

If you are going to be collecting rainwater run off from your roof what sort of roofing material are you installing?
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Post by Jools »

KnaveTO wrote:If you are going to be collecting rainwater run off from your roof what sort of roofing material are you installing?
Slate.

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Post by Richard B »

I'm so glad you said brown sauce all round & not tommy sauce which is a spoiler of many a good bacon sarnie IMHO!!! :D

In fishy matters, i'm really interested to see how this develops - nice one Jools!
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Post by chonhzilla »

woah! :shock: ....nice work!
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Post by Jools »

grokefish wrote:The only thing that worked really well in my last, failed attempt at a fish room was the drainage. It was so much easier than buckets.
Matt,

In summary what were the big failures? Keen to get them out in the open so I can avoid any similar pitfalls!

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Post by L260 »

Im so jealous Jools...ya jammy bugger..........You seen Robs new tank yet?.he has a 7-2-2 in the living room now
Best Regards

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Post by Jools »

L260 wrote:You seen Robs new tank yet?.he has a 7-2-2 in the living room now
Nope, I'd like to see that!

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Post by CFC »

The biggest downfall in my fish house is ventilation verses heating, if i open the vents wide enough to release all the moisture from the room then my heater almost doubles its on time to compensate, if i close the vents up to save heat then i get beads of water forming on the ceiling and running down the walls.
If running costs are not the main issue then a de humidifier would help somewhat (and the collected water can be used like R/O or rainwater) but they are fairly energy intensive and will push the rooms running costs up.

I've seen reptile rooms set up with the drainage you plan to use, many reptile keepers have automatic spraying systems on their vivariums and have guttering below the tank for excess water to drain out of the viv via a hole drilled in the base, the system appears to work very well. I wonder if the waste water could be recycled by running it through carbon and a veggie filter to remove nitrates and toxins?
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Post by Jools »

CFC wrote:I wonder if the waste water could be recycled by running it through carbon and a veggie filter to remove nitrates and toxins?
I'm going to run a waste pipe right out into the garden and just let it feed the plants with all the stuff they like.

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Post by Jools »

CFC wrote:The biggest downfall in my fish house is ventilation verses heating, if i open the vents wide enough to release all the moisture from the room then my heater almost doubles its on time to compensate, if i close the vents up to save heat then i get beads of water forming on the ceiling and running down the walls.
CFC,

That's been a problem for me before too. To at least attempt to address the issue, the walls are double insulated and there are no windows in the room. The condensation forms because (as I understand it) the difference in temperature between the cold wall and the warmer moist air. If I can stop the walls and ceiling getting so cold especially over night when the sun is not warming them (and there is no heat loss via a window) then I think I will at least reduce the problem.

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Post by Bas Pels »

my fishroom does not have any condensatioon on insulated walls, despice the high humidity

I don't heat it, but the room is as full of tanks as I could manage, all with pumps and pampes. This energy is all turned into heat, which remains in the room due to the insulation.

However, it is too well insulated to provide oxygen for the fishes. Therevore I mechanically pump air from my adjourning livingroom (thus warm)into 9 of the tanks (the room contains 15 tanks, I do not air the smallest 4 tanks)

This goes perfect for the fishes, but now a lot of moist air comes out of the room - I think I will have to install another vent to withdraw moist air
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Post by CFC »

I started by running all my waste water straight onto the garden, but after a few weeks i had the beginings of a flooded grassland biotope forming in the garden so i had to install a run of 40mm waste pipe along the garden fence and into the drain.

My biggest problem is that my fish house is an entirely seperate building that is exposed on all 4 sides but prehaps an outerlayer of insulation around the buidling and then clad over might solve my condensation issue.
It probably doesnt help having a 48 square foot tank in the room either.
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Post by Jools »

That's really useful, I'll need to check with the run off however I might make it close to some trees that don't appear to have a limit to the amount of water they can suck up.

The whole garden is just a shade away from a swamp at the best of times and it's only all the trees that dry it out I think.

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Post by grokefish »

The main problem with my last attempt at a fish room was lack of planning and rushing the job, which from what I see here is probably not a lack of planning or a rushed job.
My main reason for building it in the first place was to get the majority of the tanks out of the main 'living ' parts of the house for two reasons
1. changing the massive amounts of water was ruining the house however careful I was.
2. to get all the tanks in one place with it's own drainage water supply and a floor surface that I could chuck water wherever I wanted

three. three reasons
1. changing the massive amounts of water was ruining the house however careful I was.
2. to get all the tanks in one place with it's own drainage water supply and a floor surface that I could chuck water wherever I wanted
3. as I am away working alot Kath has to do the majority of the maintenance which to be honest she was getting really pissed off with (she has her own fish tank with a royal panaque to look after and as he is quite big now he takes a lot of looking after I have never seen a fish sht so much)and I wanted it to be as easy as possible for her.

four reasons
1. changing the massive amounts blah blah

4. to make it as economically as I could both in price of build (which came in at about £500) and running costs.

Due to the lack of planning and in fact common sense it was a failure in these respects:

Too hot in the summer
Too cold in the winter
Unbelivable amounts of condensation, it runs off the roof

It was too hot in the summer because I really went to town on the insulation and draught proofing which is one of the reasons for the condensation.
It is also built in a real suntrap area of my property south facing and right out of the wind.
I built it there for these very reasons, I wanted to cut down on lighting costs so I used an insulating polycarbonate roof, it got up to 40 degrees c in my biggest tank opening the doors and windows did nothing I lost a breeding project that was very special for me as I had been working on it for years (spotted doras ) and I was sure that I was going to crack it this year.
The only reason I didn't loose everything was Kath did 50% water changes in all the tanks everyday till I got back for which I will be eternally gratefull.
Anyway this insulated roof turned out to be a crock.
It is not useless as it keeps the room about 10 degrees c above the outside temperature, my pond was frozen down to 6 inches the other morning and it was 11 degrees in my abandoned fish room but to keep it at the required temperatures was taking a lot of lecky and so failed in that respect because in my living room which is super insulated being half underground my central heating keeps that room at a constant 25 with very little use of the gas.
The way to get it to work well as I have found with a little experiment in my shed, which is appx the same size as this fish room is to have an outer layer on the roof, completely sealed, and a lower layer under the roof beams again totally sealed. This gives a good insulation with natural sunlight to boot, but I am waiting for the summer to see how hot it gets in there, I think I will be able to bake cakes in there in then. :lol:
I think that I could cure the three bears syndrome that is going on in there with some more planning and thought but the condensation is a very real problem which I am going to solve without using lecky but it is going to take alot of head scratching.
Also because of the angle of the sun I could see nothing but reflections in all the tanks until the sun left and then for obvious reasons I could see nothing, only at dawn was it any good.
I painted the walls white which reflected both heat and light back into the room making the overheating worse and the reflections, I think I will get it all off again and maybe the walls will act as sort of storage heaters, but this will be just an experiment as the room is abandoned as a fish room now, but makes a very fine sun room which is very a la mode :wink:
and I am building a new one in the old kitchen in the traditional way, real roof, gas heated, electric lighting etc.
Sorry to waffle but that is it, not very much of a summary really.

Summary:-
Too hot
Too cold
To bright
Condensation of doom (which did not matter to the room as I had built it to be wet but wasn't much fun to be in) it was like rain in there, I'm not joking.
Do not buildd it anything like I did, seriously

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Post by Shane »

I have been through five fishrooms due to my frequency of moves. Here are my tips:

1) Condensation: I have never had condensation problems. I think there may be a couple of reasons for this;
a) If heating is required heat the fishroom and not the individual tanks. That way the heat is drying the room versus heating tank water that turns to gaseous form in a cooler room.
b) Have tight fitting glass/plexi covers on every tank.
c) Keep a fan on low breeze. My current fishroom has a three speed ceiling fan. Keeps condensation to nothing and helps cool the room in the hottest summer months. All of my future fishrooms will have a ceiling fan. It also helps equalize the temp throughout the room.

There is a drawback to heating/cooling the room and that is that you lose temp control over each individual tank. Tanks on lower racks will be cooler and the highest tanks warmer which is fine for most of what we all keep. This is only an issue if you are keeping a mix of temperate and tropical fishes. The other massive advantage... space heater, one electric outlet used; 20 aquarium heaters... 20 outlets used

I have had the opposite experience with regard to natural light. I can never get enough. Not sure how I can not get enough in Africa and Matt gets too much ? Ideally, I would install lots of sunlights and big windows and basically do away with artificial light. I realize you do not get enough daylight in Bathgate to do this, but every little bit of sunlight helps. The fish and plants always look best when they get some real light.

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Post by Jools »

Shane,

I like the idea of a ceiling fan, however in all your fishrooms, what was the coldest it regularly got outside? Maybe this is also a factor?

Sadly I won't have any natural light hitting any of the tanks except the big show tank. There's just too much space and heat lost to windows. I agree with condensation trays, if I take the condensation trays off the two big tanks I have, the room goes swampy overnight.

I don't think heat in the summer will be too much of a problem again because no windows and also becuase of the position of the room (purposefully it's the one most protected from sunlight on the whole property).

Thanks for the posts guys, it is really useful. Found some nice water storage units which I think I am going to use for the rainwater and tapwater. They can sit up high in the room.

Cheers,

Jools
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Post by Shane »

I like the idea of a ceiling fan, however in all your fishrooms, what was the coldest it regularly got outside? Maybe this is also a factor?
Jools,
Not as cold as it gets where you are, but it gets very cold here (down to 39F) for the toughest few weeks of winter. We all know what causes condensation. Basically, if the tanks are warmer than the room they will evaporate. Once the water cools to room temp it turns back to its liquid state and makes condensation. A fishroom will always be somewhat humid, but heating the room helps keep things much dryer since the air and tanks are the same temp.
You will really appreciate the ceiling fan. I recommend one with multiple speeds.
-Shane
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Coryman
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Post by Coryman »

Jools,

Great to see the fish room project has got under way, a lot of hard work to come, but I am sure it will all be worth it once it is complete.

Over several fish houses I have developed one or two techniques to combat condensation, water supplies and maximise heat distribution.

Because all of my fish houses have been relatively small, space has always been a premium. So for water collection and storage I have two 45 gallon water butts outside, each one feeds into under tank vats the fish house via ball valves. This allows the incoming water to both ages and adjust to the internal temperature inside the FH. To compensate for condensation, which usually increases when water changing, I have installed an extractor fan high up at one end of the FH. This has a timer, which switches the fan on for 5 minutes in every 15. There are units available that are controlled by the humidity level. Both methods do remove a little heat but I think that is out weighed by the benefit the fewer problems that can be caused by high humidity.

Having a couple of circulating fans is definitely a good move, as well as helping to keep humidity levels down, they also help to even out the temperature throughout the room, Especially if you intend to have celling mounted light units, these generate quite a bit of heat, not only from the choke units, but from the light tubes themselves. If the fans are directed across the lights and downwards, this will definitely help to lessen the load on the room heater.

The other benefit of good air movement in the room is that it will drastically reduce the development of fungus and mould especially if your tank staging is going to be constructed from wood.

Ian
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