a 20 gallon rift lake

[oetheous]

Believe it or not, this really is a catfish aquarium. There are 3 synodontis lucipinnis, a rubber lip pleco, a ninja south american bumblebee catfish, and 2 rams. My cats are super camera shy.

[DutchFry]

Nice set up!

the rams are not rams but Mikrogeophagus altispinoza. very similar to rams though.

the tank could do with some wood and/or plants to provide a bit more cover for the fish but that is of course personal taste too. it looks great already!

[.Plecomania.]

nah i'd say the rocks make it look more like rift lake than driftwood could. but these cichlids aren't from the rift lake! lol.

[oetheous]

I love the look of a tank with good rock work. I'm much fonder of Bolivian rams than African cichlids, though I've kept several in the past. The cats love the rock work. They are always swimming on the underside of the rocks. They spend like a third of their time upside down.

[Richard B]

This is a superb tank for the Luicipinnis, but tless than ideal for the other fish you have i'm afraid

[oetheous]

This is a superb tank for the Luicipinnis, but tless than ideal for the other fish you have i'm afraid

In what ways?

[.Plecomania.]

most likely water parameters. if the catfish are like rift lake cichlids then they like very high pH and hard water. rams don't like those conditions. may be why yours a little faded in those pics, idk.

[oetheous]

most likely water parameters. if the catfish are like rift lake cichlids then they like very high pH and hard water. rams don't like those conditions. may be why yours a little faded in those pics, idk.

Well these are commercially bred aquarium fish. Water parameters wouldn't really matter, other than relative neutrality and stability. Even if they were wild caught fish, the pool filter sand and lace rock are completely inert. There is nothing to buffer the water one way or the other. The pool filter sand itself is like 97% silica, and being reflective like glass, it will drown out the color of my Bolivian rams. Against something like titan moon sand, their same color would be much more enhanced. Their intensity of color is much more due to the sand properties itself rather than the water chemistry. I promise you, they are very happy fish.

[oetheous]

well i tried. One not so good shots after like 30 shots.

[.Plecomania.]

that is one cool cat

[oetheous]

a few more attempts

[Richard B]

Nice Lucipinnis!

The rubber lip prefers cooler faster flowing water with smoother rounded stone/pebbles, as lace rock can be rough on the surface.

Not sure what species the bumblebee is, so hard to advise. The title of the thread is a bit misleading as it's not really a rift lake tank at all - in that is it not high pH, hard water & doesn't contain rift lake fish apart from the synos.

The rams prefer slower moving water with plants to give them greater feeling of security with areas of shade

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Water parameters wouldn't really matter, other than relative neutrality and stability

They do, as Richard B says they are totally incompatible tank mates. Lake Tanganyika is more like the ocean than most other fresh water, its water parameters are a world away from the rivers of S. America. I think you need 2 tanks long term for your present inhabitants.

cheers Darrel

[oetheous]

Hi all,

Water parameters wouldn't really matter, other than relative neutrality and stability

They do, as Richard B says they are totally incompatible tank mates. Lake Tanganyika is more like the ocean than most other fresh water, its water parameters are a world away from the rivers of S. America. I think you need 2 tanks long term for your present inhabitants.

cheers Darrel

When you quote someone, you should quote them accurately. What I said was

these are commercially bred aquarium fish. Water parameters wouldn't really matter, other than relative neutrality and stability

I agree water parameters are important, but not in this case, not with these particular specimens.

Lets take a look at the bolivian ram.
Recommended PH: 6- 7.8
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/s ... php?id=420

the lovely petricola dwarf
Recommended PH: 6.5- 8.5
And most important, regarding tank mates: "Given that the fish doesn't require the water conditions normally associated with rift valley cichlids this renders virtually any aquarium fish of a suitable size and disposition a good tankmate. It's a community catfish for the masses!" I repeat, "the masses."
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... ies_id=103

Unless of course this information is incorrect, these are perfectly compatible tankmates. They really do love each other.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
The bottom line is that they are your fish, and you can keep them in the way you feel best, but

Lets take a look at the bolivian ram. Recommended PH: 6- 7.8

You can't go on a pH measurement on its own, all it tells you is the ratio of H+:OH- ions at the time you took the reading.

The way I visualise this is to use the "sugar" analogy and think of an old fashioned pair of scales, if we have 1 grain of sugar in either pan we are balanced and at pH7, if we have one sugar cube in either pan we are balanced and at pH7, and if we have 1 bag of sugar in either pan we are balanced and at pH7. In our case the "sugar" in either pan is really acids (proton (H+) donors) and bases (proton acceptors).

You can interpret pH if you know the amount of "sugar" in the alkaline/base scale, this is the dKH, the amount of carbonate buffering. Lake Tanganyika is both alkaline (many more proton acceptors than donors in solution) and almost infinitely carbonate buffered. This means that you have to add a huge amount of acids (H+ donors) to change the pH. In the sugar analogy, there is a bag in the bases scale and a grain in the acids.

The actual water composition figures for Lake Tanganyika are here: <http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... l&start=20>.

Bolivian Rams come from water with virtually no carbonate buffering, where pH is a moveable feast. This is the "grain of sugar" scenario, where small changes in the acid:base ratio cause large changes in pH.

Bolivian Rams and Synodontis petricola may be able to survive in sub-optimal water conditions for an extended period, but it still doesn't make them suitable tank mates.

The way I think about this is I used to be a fish "haver", but now I think I'm a "fish keeper", and there honestly is a difference.

cheers Darrel

[Richard B]

They really do love each other

-they don't.

Love is 100% exclusively a human emotion, they may be getting on well in each others company without problems.

Lucipinnis will 'do very well' in a range of water conditions but the best for them would be hard alkaline water with as little nitrate as possible (as they suffer more than most synos when nitrate builds up). As fishkeepers we strive to provide the best conditions for our fish, or at least i certainly do, as this encourages the most natural behaviours.

[.Plecomania.]

I still think the cichlids here would be best in a soft water tank. not a hard water tank like an African tank. the opposite is true of the catfish.

[oetheous]

Hi Darrel.
I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me about the water chemistry, and differences between both bodies of water. But what I have been saying from the beginning is that i agree with you.
Your argument is: they are from different waters, thus they should not be kept together.
Your argument is totally true, unless there are exceptions to these "rules."

My argument (in which no one seems to want to address) is: that these fish are exceptions to your rules because of the following reasons. First, they are commercially bred aquarium fish, and have been bred in varying water parameters for so long, that their original water requirements no longer apply. This is very true of the Bolivian ram, one of the most heavily bred aquarium fish in the trade. Secondly, the lucipinnis is an exception to these rules, "the fish doesn't require the water conditions normally associated with rift valley cichlids,(planetcatfish)."

If you want to persuade me, stop making the same argument over and over. Instead, show how these fish are not exceptions to these rules, and thus still need a to be kept in their specific water parameters.

Richard B.
I would be careful what you post, you tend to post things based on your own personal thoughts/views which tend to be less than true.

Love is 100% exclusively a human emotion

Do you realize how difficult this position is to defend? Most pet owners (cats, dogs, etc) would disagree with you. I'm not even going to try and make you defend this, it doesn't even have to do anything with what is being discussed here. And in terms of the words "do very well," its synonymous with the word "thriving." When a fish "does very well," its thriving.

[dw1305]

Hi all,

First, they are commercially bred aquarium fish, and have been bred in varying water parameters for so long, that their original water requirements no longer apply. This is very true of the Bolivian ram, one of the most heavily bred aquarium fish in the trade. Secondly, the lucipinnis is an exception to these rules, "the fish doesn't require the water conditions normally associated with rift valley cichlids,(planetcatfish)."

You are not obliged to listen to me, or any of the other posters on this forum, you are entitled to your position, but I'm not going to agree, even if the Bolivian Rams and Synodontis are quite tolerant fish, that still leaves the Bumblebee cat and Chaetostoma.

It is not a compatible mix of fish, and the best you can hope is to keep all the fish in conditions that are sub-optimal, or one species of fish in suitable conditions and the rest in distinctly unsuitable conditions. If you want to do either of these options that is up to you.

I've learnt a huge amount from posters on this forum, because they are people who have "done it all and have the T shirt". If "Coryologist" says it is best to keep most Corydoras over a sand substrate, I'm not going to do loads of experiments with other substrates, I'm going to believe him. Same with "Jools", "Apistomaster", "Racoll", the late "Macvsog23" etc. if they post a comment on your thread that things aren't quite right, it isn't because they are looking for an argument, it is because they want the best for you and your fish.

I'm not a biotope fanatic and I keep/have kept fish (L129, L333, various Apistogramma spp.) from non-vegetated waters in tanks with plants in them, because I only keep planted tanks. I keep planted tanks because having actively growing plants make water management much easier. I've dithered S. American cichlids with W. African Killi fish and Thread-fin Rainbows, because they share the same water requirements, and are suitable tank mates.

cheers Darrel

[oetheous]

I've been in they hobby many years. I've learned my share about it.

You don't think they're compatible. I think they are.

Lets agree to disagree.

[.Plecomania.]

right.
doesn't change the fact that the tank looks cool

I do not think that just being commercially bred, changed the fishes' genetics in any meaningful way. they are more acclimated to a broader range of parameters- yes, because they were born in different water types and have tolerances. the genes are still the same. their genes have evolved for them to thrive in their particular type of habitat. Genes have everything to do with the fishes' chemistry and function and this is all dependent on the environment they live in too. that is why i think these fish should preferably be housed in soft and hard water environments separately.

[oetheous]

Yeah, the water is basically neutral.

Thanks!! Sand and rock are my passion.

[Jools]

I'd say the fish are in less than optimal conditions more from a decor point of view than water params. I note discussion about the captive bred fish being more tolerant but I don't know this is that case and anyway, at least half the species involved are wild caught. I think also Bolivian Rams are often wild caught too.

These are all hardy fish. How about we watch progress in the tank with an update pic every three months or so?

It would be interesting to see it in two years time.

Cheers

Jools

[wijnands]

Commercially bred != water hardness suddenly become meaningless. That whole idea seems persistent on some forums on the American parts of the internet.
This particular setup does not do justice to rams at all and it's nowhere near a rift lake

[oetheous]

Will do with the updates Mr. Jools.

[Jools]

Commercially bred != water hardness suddenly become meaningless. That whole idea seems persistent on some forums on the American parts of the internet.

Don't want to go too far off topic, but it is dangerous to generalise about fishkeeping on the basis of which flags we live under.

I've been lucky enough to chat/hang-out with some commercial scale fish breeders in the US and have read a fair bit into the history of that market. If you consider the source of your captive bred fish versus those in the US, we see that many supplied to the US are bred and raised in the limestone rich waters of Florida. Whether that is right or wrong, it is a fact that affects US fishkeepers and has zero impact on fishkeepers outside the area of supply.

Jools

[Richard B]

Richard B.
I would be careful what you post, you tend to post things based on your own personal thoughts/views which tend to be less than true.

Love is 100% exclusively a human emotionDo you realize how difficult this position is to defend? Most pet owners (cats, dogs, etc) would disagree with you. I'm not even going to try and make you defend this, it doesn't even have to do anything with what is being discussed here. And in terms of the words "do very well," its synonymous with the word "thriving." When a fish "does very well," its thriving.

Which bits of my personal thoughts /views tend to be less than true? I'd be interested to hear.

I believe a lot of pet owners, cats & dogs love their pets, but do the pets ''love'' them? as love is something humans have created/experienced/expressed. My dog, when he was alive was pleased to see me, showed an afinity towards certain people & things, preferred certain things to eat etc but 'love' is something i couldn't attribute. Fish really can't 'love' each other. Which is what you posted which is why i commented

[wijnands]

Commercially bred != water hardness suddenly become meaningless. That whole idea seems persistent on some forums on the American parts of the internet.

Don't want to go too far off topic, but it is dangerous to generalise about fishkeeping on the basis of which flags we live under.

I didn't Jools. At least, I don't think I did.

I've been lucky enough to chat/hang-out with some commercial scale fish breeders in the US and have read a fair bit into the history of that market. If you consider the source of your captive bred fish versus those in the US, we see that many supplied to the US are bred and raised in the limestone rich waters of Florida. Whether that is right or wrong, it is a fact that affects US fishkeepers and has zero impact on fishkeepers outside the area of supply.

Jools

That is way more interesting. What is raised in Florida these days?

[oetheous]

Snap a few shots. I can never get a shot of any of the lucipinnis' under the aquarium lights. They just don't stay still.

[oetheous]

Pictures update.