Catfish-Only Tank Stocking?

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 08 Oct 2014, 00:32

Narelle wrote:Update - New Plans

In a discussion in a recent thread of mine, it was brought to my attention that I had overlooked some key differences in water preferences for some of the fish I'd planned to keep in this setup. So now I'm almost completely revising this plan.

I still definitely want to keep 14 or so
Hyalobagrus flavus
and 8 - 12
Kryptopterus vitreolus
(unless I come across another discrepancy and these two aren't compatible either). They both make my top 10 Catfish Wish List, with H. flavus at #2, so I'm really dying to keep these cats. (The list is here, if anyone is interested.)

Now I need to find some other compatible species to go with them. I'd like to house at least one more type of cat to occupy more of the substrate level of the tank, as my understanding is still that both these species are more mid-water fish.

I'm not opposed to fish with similar needs from different locations, but I am playing around with the idea of a bit of a biotope. I know these two species aren't found in the same waterways, but I'd rather let one species deviate and keep the fish I want than limit myself more than I already have. I'd prefer to center the tank around H. flavus, if I'm getting that specific. (As a side note, if anyone is familiar with the native plants from the areas these fish are native to, please let me know. I am looking at keeping one riparian species sticking out of the tank as well.)

Fish I'm looking into more are
Mystus carcio
(as suggested above) and
Pseudomystus funebris
. Unfortunately, though, I can't seem to find either of these species available anywhere, so it may not matter at all how compatible they are.

So of course I turn to the experts! Is anyone familiar with some peaceful little southeast asian blackwater catfish that would suit a 55g Catfish-Only planted tank and are even remotely available in the trade? Or, if that's much too specific (as it's looking to be with how much I'm struggling to find any other options), just other compatible blackwater cats that would be comfortable in this kind of setup?

v---v---v---Old information, no longer relevant---v---v---v

I'm looking at doing a catfish-only tank for my next one. My current thoughts are to do a fairly heavily planted tank, full of hiding spots, for a community of small, peaceful catfish.
I don't know when this tank will become a reality, though I am shopping for second-hand tanks now. I've been looking for tanks in the 30g - 90g range, but I'm also currently trying to contact someone selling a 150g for a price that's just way too low to pass up, so that is also a possibility.

I was looking through small species and I'm really interested in keeping and . I was also considering because they have about the same water parameter/care requirements.

I also really like the idea of keeping , but I'm not sure I want to push the fish so close to the outskirts of their range. I think I might need to if I want more diversity, though. I haven't looked into them as much, so I'm not sure they would be docile enough for such shy species as the others I'm considering, but would fit into the same situation as the Farlowella.

If I didn't go with any of the above species, I would also consider a community that would be compatible with .

So thoughts? Suggestions? If I end up with a 150g, I'd definitely like to fit in a few more species. I don't mind if they're a bit hard to get a hold of, but obviously it needs to be species that can be found ever. ^^;; As much as I'd love to turn my next tank into a species tank of , that won't be happening any time soon.
(I'd also take suggestions for cool larger cats that could permanently live in a 150g, as I hadn't even considered looking at fish needing such a big tank. I'm a big fan of bagrids, if that helps.)

Supercorygirl · Post by **Supercorygirl** » 08 Oct 2014, 02:22

No personal experience with any but the farlowella, but I found farlowellas extremely docile and fairly hardy. The ones I had just laid about lol my Cory's would generally rest on them and they never moved, plus never used a net as mine were in the 6"+ size so just hand caught them. IMO I think the farlowellas, kryptos and hyalos would be stunning together.on a side note always fun to play count the twigs you see lol.

Post by **Birger** » 08 Oct 2014, 14:31

Just a thought, you mentioned and then later this could be a good combination in a tank....or is sometimes available.

Also could add some or look at some of the small African barbs...but that would not be catfish only.

Birger

Shovelnose · Post by **Shovelnose** » 08 Oct 2014, 16:02

Narelle wrote: As much as I'd love to turn my next tank into a species tank of
Nanobagrus armatus
, that won't be happening any time soon.

Excellent choice but not something that will materialise anytime soon as I too found out recently : http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =9&t=39642

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 09 Oct 2014, 02:27

So it's almost definitely going to be a 55g. I'm in the process of acquiring the 150g, but I'm thinking my 55g's inhabitants will be moving up to that and their tank will become the catfish-only one.

Supercorygirl wrote:No personal experience with any but the farlowella, but I found farlowellas extremely docile and fairly hardy. The ones I had just laid about lol my Cory's would generally rest on them and they never moved, plus never used a net as mine were in the 6"+ size so just hand caught them. IMO I think the farlowellas, kryptos and hyalos would be stunning together.on a side note always fun to play count the twigs you see lol.

Ah, thanks! I'll definitely put them on the list then, I do quite like them. My LFS has been stocking them lately and they've been very tempting, but I didn't have a place to put them.

Birger wrote:Just a thought, you mentioned
Synodontis nigriventris
and then later
Pareutropius buffei
this could be a good combination in a tank....or
Parailia pellucida
is sometimes available.

Also could add some
Microctenopoma
or look at some of the small African barbs...but that would not be catfish only.

Birger

I am leaning towards the asian species, but those would make a good second choice list. Thanks for the suggestions!

Shovelnose wrote:
Narelle wrote: As much as I'd love to turn my next tank into a species tank of
Nanobagrus armatus
, that won't be happening any time soon.
Excellent choice but not something that will materialise anytime soon as I too found out recently : http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =9&t=39642

Hey, I can dream! That species tank will be a reality one day.

Shovelnose · Post by **Shovelnose** » 09 Oct 2014, 05:13

A nice school of Rama chandramara or Mystus carcio will be a good choice if you are looking at Asian catfish. If you are looking for oddballs, Gagata and Gogangra might be good choices although they are slightly tricky to keep.

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 10 Oct 2014, 01:44

Shovelnose wrote:A nice school of Rama chandramara or Mystus carcio will be a good choice if you are looking at Asian catfish. If you are looking for oddballs, Gagata and Gogangra might be good choices although they are slightly tricky to keep.

I tend to prefer to asian species, but it doesn't have to be a solely asian tank. I'm more and more thinking of mixing it, since those farlowellas are quite tempting...

I think the Rama might look a bit too similar to the Hyalobagrus...Very cool looking species, but I'd like some apparent diversity. I was hoping to get the look and feel of a community tank with just different species of catfish.

I do quite like the Mystus though! I'm a sucker for bagrids. Would they be difficult to obtain? Are they solitary or shoaling?

The Gagata and Gogangra species also look interesting, but I'm not sure they would go well with the others I was looking at as their profile says they prefer a stronger current. The species I was looking at prefer little to none.

My current thoughts on stocking would be:
A shoal of , possibly 14?
A shoal of , 8 - 12?
At least 3
1
*Maybe* a few or a shoal of ?

The numbers are kind of just first thoughts, I haven't considered them thoroughly in regards to the tank size. (Definitely a 55g, I bought the 150g today.)

Shovelnose · Post by **Shovelnose** » 10 Oct 2014, 05:23

Narelle wrote:I do quite like the Mystus though! I'm a sucker for bagrids. Would they be difficult to obtain? Are they solitary or shoaling?

This is an easy to care for, shoaling species that should be fairly easy to obtain overseas.

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 13 Feb 2015, 02:27

It's been awhile since I came up with the idea, but this tank is coming closer to becoming a reality. It's been on hold waiting for my 55g to get freed up, but those fish should be moving to my 150g in the next month or two, so this tank will be my next project.

The stocking list I have in mind at the moment is:
14
8 - 12
3 - 6
1
*maybe* 1

But the main thing that's brought me back here is that one of my local stores has gotten some banjo cats in stock and I am interested in getting one. I can't say for sure which species it is, but presumably it would be . I would have space to house it comfortably until the catfish-only tank was set up, but would rather not keep it in the other tank long term. What I've been reading about this species suggests that it would be compatible with any kind of fish, but given the small species that I'd like to keep here, I'm concerned that some may get eaten. If it were one of the smaller species of "banjo cats", I'd feel much more comfortable, but I'm just not sure about a 6" fish with 1" fish. Would they be compatible?
(The alternative housing I would have available would put the banjo with a , which would be a safer arrangement? Or should I skip the banjo?)

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 13 Feb 2015, 02:44

Hi Narelle, I think the banjos would be safe for your other fish. I have 5 adult coracoideus, the largest about 5" SL, in a 36 gal which over the years has also housed small glowlight tetras and baby Corys (about 1/2" SL), and my banjos have never touched them.

To clarify, are the banjos at your LFS 6" long? I've never seen them for sale full grown before. Usually the banjos in the LFS are between 1" and 3" SL.

Good luck, Eric

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 13 Feb 2015, 03:44

The banjos I saw for sale were a little over an inch, no where near full grown, I just like to plan ahead for the long term. I can't guarantee I'll have a more suitable tank for a banjo in the distant future, so I'd rather plan around what I know I'm going to have in the immediate future. I know I can house a 1" fish easily now, but I don't want to get one with that in mind and never find a better place for it that gives it a little more room.

But thank you for the response, that definitely makes me feel a lot better! I was mostly worried about the Hara spp., but if baby cories are fine, I'm sure they would be too.

Actually, rereading your post, 5 in a 36g isn't too cramped? I might consider getting all of them then, they had 3 in stock and they'd be getting a 55g. (Though the way I plan to have the tank laid out, 1/2 to 2/3 of the floor space would be pretty densely packed with plants and hardscape, so the available open space might still be a bit cramped...)

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 13 Feb 2015, 03:57

Narelle wrote:Actually, rereading your post, 5 in a 36g isn't too cramped? I might consider getting all of them then, they had 3 in stock and they'd be getting a 55g. (Though the way I plan to have the tank laid out, 1/2 to 2/3 of the floor space would be pretty densely packed with plants and hardscape, so the available open space might still be a bit cramped...)

Yes my tank is overstocked, but not because of the banjos. It's all the other fish I have in the tank. The banjos spend most of the daylight hours buried in the sandy substrate with just their faces and their tails showing, then come out after lights off to roam the tank, feed, and spawn. You can see the tank with three banjos visible (one above sand and the head of a second to left of tank, and the tail of a third visible to the right of the tank) in a photo posted on my recent thread about inverted spawning mops.

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 13 Feb 2015, 15:07

One observation here. Most bottom dwellers have two features in common, downward facing mouth and upward facing eyes. If you are pretty much on the bottom, then you need to worry about what is above you not below. For these fish most threats come from above.

So the fish are often under cover or in caves etc. and when they want to come out to eat or generally look about or find a sexual partner, they must expose themselves. One thing that helps such fish feel safer about coming and being out is the presence of small fish out and about above them. When there is a predator lurking, these other fish tend to hide. The result is the presence of these "dither" type fish tells the bottom dweller that is is likely safe to come out.

If you do an all catfish tank, the dither fish will be absent and you may find your fish tend to stay hidden more than they would if you had something non-threatening swimming above them in the tank.

Just one person's opinion here.

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 13 Feb 2015, 15:34

Well, the thought with this was that with two reasonably sized groups of shoaling cats in the tank, they might be comfortable enough with the security of their own kind to venture out more, and when one shoal does the other would follow suit. And then, hopefully after that, each shoal would be reassured by the presence of the other and they would be comfortable in the tank. Do you not think that would work?
I know there would probably be awhile in the beginning that I wouldn't see them too much, but I wouldn't mind. That is actually something I like about catfish - it makes it much more exciting and interesting when they do venture out. But I would hate to have the fish stressed all the time, so if you think it wouldn't be in the fish's best interests to not have a dither, I would consider adding another kind of fish to make them more comfortable.

TwoTankAmin · Post by **TwoTankAmin** » 13 Feb 2015, 17:38

If you do an anecdotal study of plecos, you will find that they hide a lot, especially in species tanks. However, the one exception to this is in those planted community tanks which have an assortment of fish. The average fish keeper with a single tank will often have one of these sort of tanks.

When you begin to look at the most popular pleco species kept in such tanks you will see is some variety of the common tank bn. http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/spe ... cies_id=49 And folks with these tanks will often note/post their bn are out a lot. This is due, in part, to the other dither type fish in the tank swimming about above them.

With all catfish in your tank it will do nothing to change what the upward looking eyes see above them- empty space = possible danger. Having other bottom dwellers does nothing to change that empty space. No dithers above means there could be predators about.

My experience is that wild plecos are hard wired to bolt at movement. Most fish are. if they wait around to ID what made that movement it may be too late. The one thing I have noticed is that tank born and raised fish do tend to be a bit bolder than their parents- at least in my species tanks they do.

Also when I say upward looking eyes, it doesn't mean they only see up. They can see in many directions but having eyes located on top of the head are evolved/designed to see up much more easily.

Mol_PMB · Post by **Mol_PMB** » 13 Feb 2015, 17:49

My limited experience is the same. Wild-caught fish are more easily spooked than tank-bred ones of the same/similar species (in my case, I can compare shoals of Cory species and rummy-nose tetras).
And I see a lot more of my plecs that have dithers than those that don't. When I've taken out dithers, or moved the plec to a tank without them, the plec has become more shy.
Which reminds me, I need to buy a shoal of dithers for my new big tank which currently has an L24, 8 Brochis splendens and 5 Biotodoma cupido. These bottom-dwellers are all more shy than they were in their previous tanks where they had shoals of tetras above them.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 14 Feb 2015, 00:55

But not all catfish are bottom dwellers. I chose the species I did because they all occupy relatively different spaces in the tank, to try to give it the feel of a diverse community tank using only catfish.

are noted in the Cat-E-Log to be "normally found hiding under thick mats of floating grass in its natural habitat", which has led me to believe that, given dense planting and thick floating plant cover, this species would tend to occupy the mid - upper levels of the water column when comfortable.
All I've ever seen or read about has suggested that they are generally mid-water swimmers.
I was under the impression that Hara spp., or at least , tend to hang out on and amongst vegetation.
should also hang out on the plants, as well as hardscape, and glass.
Which would leave my new banjo cat (most likely ) as my only true strict bottom dweller.

I do understand what you mean about a tank full of bottom dwellers, but I wasn't choosing just plecos for this tank as you've experienced. I tried to make sure I would have a diverse collection of fish that would fill all of the typical community tank roles. With that in mind, do you still think I necessarily need dither fish?

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 14 Feb 2015, 01:04

Hi Narelle,
I used to keep a group of five Kryptopterus vitreolus. Yes they are mid-water fish, but they are "fraidy-cats," if you'll pardon the pun. Mine hid amongst dense vegetation or inside ornamental objects (a Blackhawk helicopter). They were rarely out in open water for any length of time. And that was in a tank with dithers - cherry barbs and glowlight tetras. IMO, you probably won't convince them to act as dither fish for the other species in your tank, if that's what you're counting on. I don't know - maybe a larger group of them would be more bold.
Cheers, Eric

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 14 Feb 2015, 01:59

If they don't come out much regardless of the other fish, that probably would make the others more nervous as well... Do you think the fish would be stressed without dithers? I would, ideally, like to see more of my fish, but I really don't mind a having a tank where you have to pay a little more attention and appreciate what you do see of the fish a bit more. But them being comfortable is definitely my main concern, so I'd hate to have them stressed all the time because I'm too stubborn to break my "catfish-only" rule.

Perhaps, when I get the tank set up, I could stock as planned to start with and see how they do, but have a different kind of fish in mind to dither as a back up that I could add in later if necessary?

( I ended up picking up just one banjo for now. Turns out they had more in the tank that I'd missed. This one was probably the biggest, measured at about 5.5 cm TL and 4.5 cm SL. Here's some pictures for anyone interested: [X] [X] [X] [X] [X] )

YouTube · Post by **bekateen** » 14 Feb 2015, 02:56

Nice looking banjo.

I realize it's still a little young, possibly too soon to tell, but it looks like a male to me. If you want to see a mature female, look at the second and third from the last photos of a banjo on the CLOG:
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/ima ... ge_id=3339
http://www.planetcatfish.com/common/ima ... ge_id=9256

Also, here is a photo of one of my females, taken from my own "My Cats" page.
Cheers, Eric

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 30 Aug 2015, 00:17

Update - New Plans

In a discussion in a recent thread of mine, it was brought to my attention that I had overlooked some key differences in water preferences for some of the fish I'd planned to keep in this setup. So now I'm almost completely revising this plan.

I still definitely want to keep 14 or so and 8 - 12 (unless I come across another discrepancy and these two aren't compatible either). They both make my top 10 Catfish Wish List, with H. flavus at #2, so I'm really dying to keep these cats. (The list is here, if anyone is interested.)

Now I need to find some other compatible species to go with them. I'd like to house at least one more type of cat to occupy more of the substrate level of the tank, as my understanding is still that both these species are more mid-water fish.

I'm not opposed to fish with similar needs from different locations, but I am playing around with the idea of a bit of a biotope. I know these two species aren't found in the same waterways, but I'd rather let one species deviate and keep the fish I want than limit myself more than I already have. I'd prefer to center the tank around H. flavus, if I'm getting that specific. (As a side note, if anyone is familiar with the native plants from the areas these fish are native to, please let me know. I am looking at keeping one riparian species sticking out of the tank as well.)

Fish I'm looking into more are (as suggested above) and . Unfortunately, though, I can't seem to find either of these species available anywhere, so it may not matter at all how compatible they are. A possibly more compatible and easily accessible option would be - would they be a good fit? (I need to read more about them.)

So of course I turn to the experts! Is anyone familiar with some peaceful little southeast asian blackwater catfish that would suit a 55g Catfish-Only planted tank and are even remotely available in the trade? Or, if that's much too specific (as it's looking to be with how much I'm struggling to find any other options), just other compatible blackwater cats that would be comfortable in this kind of setup?

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 01 Sep 2015, 01:08

Hi Narelle,

I think the Hyalobagrus and the Kryptopterus will go well together. What is your water hardness like? I think both of these species are reasonably adaptable, but I would not risk keeping them in "liquid concrete" type water.

I would be nervous that largeish Mystus might be a bit too boisterous for the more timid Hyalobagrus and the Kryptopterus (although the tank is a large one).

Actually, I think the idea of the banjo cats is a really good one (either of the genera you propose), as these are very docile fishes.

The P. funebris would be a nice choice too, but getting hold of these may not be easy, although they are traded.

Narelle · Post by **Narelle** » 01 Sep 2015, 23:16

My water is definitely in the "liquid concrete" category (pH 8 point something? Didn't have my gh/kh tests when I last tested tap, but I know the TDS is surprisingly low.), but I certainly wouldn't be using straight tap for this tank. It'd be an RO/tap mixture with driftwood, peat, and IAL. The fish would not be going into the tank until I had stable conditions that suited them, and water changes would only be with prepared, matching water. I definitely would not expect these fish to survive my tap.

I'm still not so sure about the overlap with the Pterobunocephalus sp. I was looking at....K. vitreolus, according to the Cat-E-Log, tends to like it a bit cooler. I know you don't like my taking the given temperatures quite so literally, but K. vitreolus has a max 78.8 and the Pterobunocephalus has a min 77. Still not much overlap. Not so sure I'd feel comfortable with that, as much as I'd love to keep these fish.

I will still consider B. coracoideus though...its really just a matter of whether or not I'm breaking the "biotope" if I include one. If that's the only non-asian species, I might be inclined to skip it it, but if it turns into a mixed tank again, as previously planned, I'd likely include it. (Or if that's the only other compatible fish I can find...)

I really would love to keep Pseudomystus funebris. I LOVE bagrids and that's another cat that's pretty high on my list. Unfortunately, the only mention of them having been sold online in the US in the past that I can seem to find was through Wetspot, but the pictures look like they're the same fish they're now offering as "Pseudomystus aff. stenomus". I'm guessing it was incorrectly IDed originally and has since been reassessed?

Other fish from other locations I was looking into were (a pair), (though I'm not sold, I was hoping if I got another shoal it'd be a smaller one and I'd prefer to keep otos in larger groups), and (High on my wishlist, but it's looking like these might also be more whitewater fish? Is that correct?).

racoll · Post by **racoll** » 02 Sep 2015, 22:04

Narelle wrote:I know you don't like my taking the given temperatures quite so literally, but K. vitreolus has a max 78.8 and the Pterobunocephalus has a min 77. Still not much overlap.

I see no plausible reason why K. vitreolus is listed as being so low. They are from slow moving lowland waters, so temps should be higher than this. Therefore, I suspect that the CLOG is wrong. But as always, I am happy to be corrected if someone has more accurate information regarding the species.