BN Fry keep dying

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krazyGeoff
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BN Fry keep dying

Post by krazyGeoff »

Hi,
I have been breeding BN for 2.5 years and have not had a problem like this before. I thought I would post it and see if anyone else has experienced this before:

Tanks are 720x500x305 (109.8 litres, 24.2 UK gallons or 29 US gallons)
Amonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5-40
pH 6.4 - 6.8
Temp 26-27°C
Food - JBL Nova Fect, Zucchini
Water change 30% every 2 days
Filtration AquaClear 110 HOB + internal circulation pump.
Media: Sponge and approx 1 litre Ehiem SubstratePro (Sintered glass)

The problem is that after about 2 weeks out of the breeding cave, their stomachs swell up, and eventually they are all stomach and nothing else. Sometimes the stomach appears clear and the intestine tract can be seen. The intestine is always very small. They do not seem to behave differently to healthy ones, and keep their appetite.
Babies that do not get moved from the breeding tank do not seem to become sick.

Photos...
P1090883.JPG
P1090873.JPG
P1090867.JPG
I am thinking some kind of bacterical infection, although one of the photos looks like possibly some sort of intestinal worm, although that was the first time I saw that.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Regards

Geoff
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by MatsP »

I'd say that's infection. Is your tank bare-bottom?

I've had this problem occassionally, and I think it's "dirty tank" that is the problem. Not necessarily directly a lack of water change or cleaning the tank, but some certain types of rotting food/excrement or other detritus.

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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by leej24 »

I agree with MatsP. I've had that same issue with my bare bottom 20 gallon tank with calico fry. They just kept dying in there not because it was not being cleaned. I was told it was the leftover food that caused that. The fry were eating food that was no longer good so it caused them the issues. I was also told the older fry (over +45days) would no longer have that problem and that only the younger fry were susceptible to those issues.
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by krazyGeoff »

Thanks for that.
I've been reading the bare bottom vs. not bare bottom discussions, and was wondering if this may have something to do with it.

They are bare bottomed tanks.

I'll add some substrate the same as is in the breeding tanks and see how we go from there.

Thanks
Geoff
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by apistomaster »

Even a thin layer of fine sand, >1/4 ich or enough to barely cover the bottom glass may help. It isn't always necessary but a little sand can help. It is more common to have this problem with Corydoras fry than bushy nose fry. Do you happen to allow keep any plants in their breeding tanks? I seem to have better results if I use some free floating plants like Hornwort, Najas or Water Sprite in fry grow out tanks.
It appears to be a bacterial hemorrhagic septicemia, a condition usually associated with over crowding and poor water quality. It can spread rapidly to all the fry but isn't likely to infect and affect older fish. I will never forget a large brood of over 130 wild brown discus fry coming down with it and it hits so hard and fast that no medication can help.
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krazyGeoff
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by krazyGeoff »

Thanks for that Larry,
It seemed to start after I moved the fish room around. Perhaps the stress on the "little ones". Then once it was in the tank my problem was that this tank was the next to take the new batches of fry, so before I really noticed I had already put 4 different fry batches into that tank, and then they were all doomed.

There are no plants in these "grow out" tanks as the lighting tends to mean that they slowly die off, and just end up contributing to polutants.

The fry in the "next" tank seem to be doing OK, so hopefully the issue is just in one tank.

Should I strip down the "infected" tank? or just do larger water changes and wipe down all the internal surfaces?
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by apistomaster »

Hi Geoff,
I'm sure it makes good sense to disinfect the tank and start over and that is what I think most people would do but I would not. I would clean up the tank in place and make a couple large water changes and just resume using it. I don't think this infection will persist. The actual bacteria I believe are responsible are a ubiquitous type, present in the healthiest aquarium. I this this time something was out of balance, perhaps some food spoiled and was eaten by the fry and it somehow just ran through them like wild fire? I think is was just one of those things that happens sometimes. It probably not would happen again. Why not try adding that thin layer of pool filter sand, less than 1/4", before the next brood needs a grow out tank? Give the sand a couple of weeks to become colonized by a more diverse bacterial population. Keep a group of Guppies or whatever is convenient and removable in that tank to help seed the tank/sand with other bacteria. Maybe add a little Java Moss. Java Moss seems to be able to survive and at least grow slowly under ridiculously low light. The aim of my advice is to do some things that will help create a more complex and stable aquarium ecology.
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by leej24 »

I found that my tanks with Cherry Shrimp in there help eat the food so there is less food decomposing in those tanks. The fry in those tanks have about a 99% survival rate compared to my tanks with bare bottoms.
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by apistomaster »

I also like keeping a Cherry Shrimp colony in my pleco breeding/grow out tanks for the same reason.
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by dog »

Hi guys, I recall Farid posting that he uses a brush (presumably a paint type/size) to clean out the bottom of his tanks every day or two as he also was using bare bottom - though presumably only for the fry as his tanks in his gallery look fantastic and have substrate in them.
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Re: BN Fry keep dying

Post by krazyGeoff »

Thanks,
I have added a layer of "fine" (more than sand) gravel from my L204 tanks to all the grow out tanks.

All the fry have died so this tank can go into a "holding" period for the next 3 months or so, I'll use it to grow out some more BN to go back into the next generation of breeders.

I enquired about getting some Cheery Shrimp, when reading your previous posts, Larry, but they seem to be illegal in NZ.
Also tried Java Fern, and it was odd but all that really happened was that I got hair algae. Removed the Java Fern and the algae did not return??

Now that I have finished the fish room upgrade I will have more time to concentrate on the BN.

Thanks for your assistance.
Regards
Geoff
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