Love is in the air, err water.

All posts regarding the care and breeding of these catfishes from South America.
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TwoTankAmin
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Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I guess changing my dietary regimen for the Hypans has worked pretty well. I just spotted wigglers close to free swimming in my long standing WC zebra tank. Last week in the TR L236 tank I had a trapping going on even as I cleaned the tanks and changed the water. This is neat because there has only been one male spawning in that tank since they began. My normal practice is to pull the cave with dad. The result is the cave and inhabitants end up in a growout tank in time for the free swimmers to leave the cave there. Normally dad gets a weeks rest and feeding and then he and the cave get returned to the breeder tank. This last time things got too busy and he is still in the grow tank. So a second male is in spawning mode :)

In addition, my contradens recently spawned for the first time in a few years and the L450s are going at full speed with 3 different size batches of fry spotted and spawns in a cave or two. I am seeing some caving by the wc 173 and a false start or two from the L173b. The only place I am not yet seeing any action is my F! zebra tank.

I am about to expand my menu of Repashy foods to include the Bottom Scratcher invertivore mix.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Jobro »

Hey TTA,

first things first: Congrats to your spawns :-)

So your Conclusion is that switching to Repashy foods made your plecos more active/willing to spawn?

Repashy is not common in Europe. May you share some insights? How much food do you actually get out of that 3 OZ? How is the handling and durability before it goes bad? Any of them recommendable to raise pleco fry?

Thank you,
Johannes.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I am pretty new to Repashy, so there are other folks who can probably provide more answers than I can. However, let me start with some background which may help. In my initial years of working with hypans (mainly zebras) I fed a lot of frozen food- blood worms, mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, daphnia, cyclop-eeze (for fry). I also fed earthworm and veggie sticks as well. I was lucky and was very successful in terms of spawns.

Over time I added a few more species and continued feeding this way. Eventually the success made me a bit cocky and lazy and I began to back off on feeding efforts and relied more on prepared foods I could feed quickly and more cheaply. The result was fewer spawns. I attributed this to females getting less interested with age. This was not the issue. It was my degarading their diet. It took two well known pleco experts at CatCon to point out my real problem.

During this period Repashy began formulating and selling his fish foods. A number of fish people I respect have had great success with it and I decided the time had come to give it a try. It is a bit more work than commercials foods, but it is worth it. Initially, I bought smaller amounts to try it since it is not cheap. I am about to order it in larger amounts. It is hared for me to know how long small bottle lasts as I am feeding it to 13 pleco related tanks which hold about 220 assorted size Hypans plus I drop some into a couple of other tanks for corys and loaches now and then. I have not tried it in my community tanks so far.

Bear in mind that Repashy started out making food for reptiles and then branched out into fish. His site lists dealers around the world that sell his foods. There are two in Germany:
http://www.thepetfactory.de/index.php/c ... ASHY.html/
http://www.exoticfoods.de/reptilien/
There are more EU sellers as well.

This is the Repashy site: http://www.store.repashy.com/

This is the Swiss Tropicals site for Fruut-Luups: http://www.swisstropicals.com/news/

Here is the bottom line for me. I sell my offspring to pay for my hobby costs. I get anywhere from as little as $20 to as much as into the $200+ range for the fish. Simultaneously, I hope I am contributing to the long term preservation of species which are threatened in the wild. Finally, I hope the fish I sell bring as much enjoyment to their new owners as they have to me. Based on all of this, it seems logical to me that the question of the higher cost of the food becomes relatively unimportant in terms of the whole process. Besides, one does not have to feed it exclusively, only somewhat regularly based on need.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Jobro »

Thanks a lot for your information :-)

What "flavours" would you recommend? Do you feed it to fry as well? I am looking for a replacement to babybrineshrimps for newly hatched loricariids. Cyclop-eeze is no longer available in Europe as far as I know. So anything else would be very much appreciated.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I feed frozen BBS, Repashy Spawn and Grow, and I usually have some sort of fry food. I think the most recent was a bottle from Dr. Tanner he added to an order. Baby Hypan are pretty much able to eat anything you feed that parents that gets soft. This can mean sinking bits or wafers, Repashy, etc. The food needs to be small or easily able to take small bites from. It is important, imo, to insure new fry get some amount of veggie matter in their diet, This is more important when young than in later years, but they should always get some amount in their diet. After the fry get a bit more size i will add frozen da[hnia to the list for them.

One thing you can do with the Repashy is to mix them. For example I am doing a mix of the Meat Pie and Soilent Green at between a 3 or 4 to 1 ratio. One nice thing about the Repashy is it can be fed in anything from tiny slivers to hunks and everything in between. I am using the two foods described and the Fruut-Luups and about to add the Bottom Scraper invertivore mix.

My understanding is that the lake where the cyclop-ezze were raised crashed a while back. Last I heard they were trying to get it back up. So it wont be around until they do, if they do.

What I am feeding is what I choose to use. It is by no means the only brand or type of food and I am sure there are other things to feed that I do not use which are perfectly fine. I would urge others to chime in here.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Jobro »

Thank you again. Maybe I should give the Repashy a try soon.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Phreeflow »

Congrats on the breeding success. Sadly, I've not experienced breeding from my zebras or queen arabesque. Definitely old enough and have a ratio of sexes but nothing yet.

Anyhow, I feed a wide variety of prepared dry and frozen foods which are all accepted with relish. Have added Repashy Spawn and Grow but there has been zero interest and is entirely ignored or spat out. Have tried mixing in their normal fare with the Repashy but again, no interest. I'm curious at trying others like Meat Pie or Grub Pie or Bottom Scratcher but am hesistant to waste money if they won't eat it.

How long until your fish accepted Repashy? Did they like a certain one over the others? Also curious about that Fruut Luup...are fruits good for hypans?
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I have never experienced fish rejecting food for any amount of time. In fact my fish seem to eat like pigs no matter what I feed.

Most of my fish took to Repashy right away, even those I did not intend to feed. I was surprised to see rummy nose tetras attacking the slabs put in for the plecos. I did find that a recently received box of super white l236 did not eat anything I tried the first few days, Then in went some Repashy Fruut-Luups and it was gone by morning. So my experience has been the opposite of what you describe.

My fish have taken to it so well I am thinking I need to re-budget my food spending so I can buy a lot more of the stuff. I just completed an order for 35 oz. Spawn and Grow, 12 oz Bottom Scratcher (an invert based food), 12 oz meat Pie and 6 oz Soilent green. I rotate all these foods to all my Hypans. I limit the Spawn and Grow to those tanks I am working to trigger, and then I will only use 2 or 3 times in a week because it is not a proper standard diet.

I am still feeding sinking sticks, spirulina w/ garlic and paprika once a week and assorted frozen food. But I firmly believe it has been the introduction of the Repashy which has made the difference.

I should explain that years back I experimented with some live foods. They are still one of the best options when it comes to spawning, imo. However, for me live food was just one more task in terms of fish care and I was at my limit in that respect, So I determined I would rely on frozen because of the ease of storage and use. Repashy is similar in this respect but better. It is better formulated, safe to feed to all size fish (youngsters do not choke on it like they would w/ blood worms etc.). The only negative to Repashy is it stinks up the kitchen when you make it. :YMSICK: As long as it is not freezing outside, I tend to let it cool there.

As an aside, I have never had a healthy fish starve itself to death because it refused to eat a perfectly good food. They eventually will try it if they are not fed anything else. Only fry die fast when they do not eat, bigger fish can go some time with no food. Also, I have noticed a difference in how fish react to a new food based on tank inhabitants. In a species tank things can go more slowly, but in tanks with a mix of species which are active at various levels, as soon as one fish figures out something is good food, the other fish take note and become more interested in trying it.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Jobro »

TwoTankAmin wrote: spirulina w/ garlic and paprika
You mind going into detail how u feed this? Spirulina as powder? whole pieces of garlic and paprika? Thank you.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Jobro »

Haha :D

Ok, I was wondering how you would feed the powder. That makes it obvious. Thanks.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Phreeflow »

TwoTankAmin wrote:I have never experienced fish rejecting food for any amount of time. In fact my fish seem to eat like pigs no matter what I feed.

Most of my fish took to Repashy right away, even those I did not intend to feed. I was surprised to see rummy nose tetras attacking the slabs put in for the plecos. I did find that a recently received box of super white l236 did not eat anything I tried the first few days, Then in went some Repashy Fruut-Luups and it was gone by morning. So my experience has been the opposite of what you describe.

My fish have taken to it so well I am thinking I need to re-budget my food spending so I can buy a lot more of the stuff. I just completed an order for 35 oz. Spawn and Grow, 12 oz Bottom Scratcher (an invert based food), 12 oz meat Pie and 6 oz Soilent green. I rotate all these foods to all my Hypans. I limit the Spawn and Grow to those tanks I am working to trigger, and then I will only use 2 or 3 times in a week because it is not a proper standard diet.

I am still feeding sinking sticks, spirulina w/ garlic and paprika once a week and assorted frozen food. But I firmly believe it has been the introduction of the Repashy which has made the difference.

I should explain that years back I experimented with some live foods. They are still one of the best options when it comes to spawning, imo. However, for me live food was just one more task in terms of fish care and I was at my limit in that respect, So I determined I would rely on frozen because of the ease of storage and use. Repashy is similar in this respect but better. It is better formulated, safe to feed to all size fish (youngsters do not choke on it like they would w/ blood worms etc.). The only negative to Repashy is it stinks up the kitchen when you make it. :YMSICK: As long as it is not freezing outside, I tend to let it cool there.

As an aside, I have never had a healthy fish starve itself to death because it refused to eat a perfectly good food. They eventually will try it if they are not fed anything else. Only fry die fast when they do not eat, bigger fish can go some time with no food. Also, I have noticed a difference in how fish react to a new food based on tank inhabitants. In a species tank things can go more slowly, but in tanks with a mix of species which are active at various levels, as soon as one fish figures out something is good food, the other fish take note and become more interested in trying it.
I appreciate the thoughtful response. It seems I need to be more persistent with giving them only the Repashy until they accept it or fast them a bit before going back to the foods they like. As you said about your fish, mine also jump on any food I feed except for the Repashy Spawn & Grow so I found it frustrating but I'm hoping I can get them onto it.

It also seems you feed them a lot more veggies and fruits than I have heard most hypan keepers do. I'm wondering if that is making all the difference. Would you mind explaining what the benefits of Fruut Luups, paprika, spirulina, and such foods are for your fish?

Also, any thoughts on Grub Pie, an insectivore diet, vs Meat Pie (invertivore food)?

Thx!
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Apologies in advance for being long winded...

There are really two levels to any discussion of diet for their fish. The first is what they normally eat in the wild and is basically comprised of natural foods that is not processed or fortified in any way. The other is what they are fed in captivity. This gets more complex for lay people. It is one thing to say a fish eats inverts and a completely different thing to analyze what nutrients etc. that invert supplies. The folks who know this sort of information wear white coats and works in labs.

And then we come to the fish keeper and having the need to feed their fish a healthy diet which supplies the things they need. How do we wade through all the manufactured foods out there? And what complicates this all is the disconnect between the science side and the manufacturing side all if which is complicated by the urban fish myths about it all.

The problem this dichotomy creates can make it difficult to work out a proper diet for out charges. Some argue that ingredients which a fish does not eat naturally should be avoided. So something like garlic would certainly fit that bill. I would bet there is no fish in the wild that has garlic in their diet. On the other hand I can find plenty of research papers dealing with garlic and fish- both fed or in the water which conclude that garlic is beneficial.

Finally there is a difference between how the average keeper feeds their fish as opposed to how the sort of folks that are members here who are working to have fish spawn feed theirs. Folks working to spawn their fish need to insure they are fed a proper diet designed to make fish physiologically ready and inclined to spawn.

At some point after a number of years of keeping fish and reading things all over the net, one day I asked myself, how do I know this stuff is true? This led me to a wonderful thing called Google Scholar. It is a repository of research and knowledge. I also began using more sophisticated sites such as planetcatfish, finarama, erc. There are a number of top grade scientists and fish experts on such sites.

I learned that I needed to feed young Hypans more veggies than I do with the older ones. I also read a few books which helped me better understand how various plecos feed in the wild and how they have different dietary needs and adaptations. I learned that things were not always as simple as they appeared. When the algae eating fish rasp algae, that algae is full of tiny critters that would qualify as "meat." I watched my meat loving clown loaches take chunks out of anubias. I learned that a diet primarily consisting of veggies does contain protein.

The reason I use Dr. Tanner's Fruut-Luups is simple. I know he has the education and experience to be well informed on this topic. I also know that fish eat a lot of things that we may not realize. In the wild many things fall into the water from fruits and nuts to insects and animals etc. It makes sense that some fish take advantage of this. I know that fish eat crustaceans and insects and larva. Plus I have had the pleasure of attending presentations he has made on fish diet at weekend hobby events. The reason I use Repashy is that several people I respect use it, including some very successful breeders. Btw- look at the ingredients in Fruut-Luups and you will see:
FRUUT-LUUPS is composed of Papaya, Mango, Organic Banana, and Fig. The fruit is complemented with easily digestible Black Soldier Fly, Krill, and Squid that attract even the finickiest feeders. These top-shelf ingredients make up >75% of the food. Fortified with our new Nutraceutical Premix made from Mango, Dandelion, Stinging Nettle, Garlic, Ginger, and Cinnamon based on published peer-reviewed research.
Most of us are hobbyists and we do not make a living from anything related to the hobby. This often means our time is limited in terms of how much we can devote to the fish. So we often fall back on the easiest solution. It is a lot easier to feed flake food than to batch up Repashy, insure it does not spoil and then feeding it is a bit more work too. It becomes very easy for one to get lazy and begin feeding what is easiest rather than what is best. This doesn't mean we are mistreating our fish, just that we may not be giving them what they need to spawn.

In the end, one must figure out what works for them. Even though I know live foods are best, I do not feed them. I have done red worms and I have hatched out bbs. I stopped because it was just more work and I had to draw the line somewhere. Initially, I did a lot of frozen and had decent success. Then I got lazy and I got way fewer spawns. My fish didn't die or stop growing, they just slowed or stopped reproducing. Now I am using Repashy.

I suppose I could go on about the various ingredients in the Repashy mixes. But in the end what matters is feeding it has provided what my fish needed to get jiggy again. One of the attractions of the food is it is ideal for my Hypans of any size/age. As long as a food is soft and can have anything from a tiny fry sized bite to an adult sized chunk easily eaten, it is ideal for use in spawning tanks in which the fry are allowed to grow out with the adults.

There is one downside to feeding Repashy, it is not cheap. But I am not feeding it exclusively. My fish still get a variety of foods which includes frozen and more commercial things like flakes, sinking sticks or bits. I do make my own flake blend using a mix of several foods from kensfish. I mix his basic flake (about 50%) with veggie flake (20%), earthworm flake (20%) and immune booster flake (10%). The best way to show this cost- I spend about $125 a year on frozen foods. I just spent that to get about 4 pounds of Repashy mixes. I do not expect this will last me much more than six months. (I have 12 tanks devoted to Hypans. and 8 to other things.)

Tip- Fish are not very bright, but they are not complete idiots. Often what gets a group of fish eating a new food is seeing another fish eating it.

As for the differences between the Repashy Grub and Bottom Scratcher- they have similar and dissimilar ingredients. The Grub has less protein end more fat than the Scratcher. Both contain insect meal as a main ingredient. The neat thing is you can shoot Allen Repashy an email and ask questions. He answered mine immediately which is why I purchased the Bottom Scratcher.

This is what I do because it works for me. That does not mean I have found the single best way. There are plenty of folks out there who do things differently and with greater success. I have always considered myself to have been more lucky than smart when it comes to all of this.

Edit: it occurred to me that I omitted a simple method for comparing fish foods. Read ingredient lists and compare them.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Phreeflow »

Thank you so much for taking the time, thought, and energy to offer such wonderful insight and advice. I have bookmarked this thread and will refer to it often.

I have been a fish keeper for over 30 years and had quite a few ups and downs, tried my hand at just about every species of fish I could get (including corals and freshwater inverts), and even experienced success breeding many of them. Yet, these plecos, which I am so enamored with, have eluded me.

They eat, grow, and look happy but won't breed for me. I've tried triggering a response but no luck. As I think about it, I've gone through periods of offering live foods but like you said, it became tedious and after seeing no results, I eventually lose the enthusiasm and just resort to a rotation of at least a dozen bottles of different prepared foods. Apathy and laziness I guess but I still try to vary their diet.

I knew there was something missing but couldn't figure out what to fix. That's why I was so interested reading this thread where it seems a change in diet really kickstarted things back up for you. I have always carefully read the ingredient labels and try to pick the most natural foods with the best ingredients but I admit I do not always know if what I'm reading is good or not. For instance, mango (Fruut Luups) or veggies (Soilent Green) never stood out as simething I should get for my hypans.

However, reading what you said about plecos rasping algae and getting protein at the same time makes a lot of sense. As does plecos eating the occasional fruit or nut that falls into the river. If anyone has had a lot of success, I'd say you were someone I should aspire to emulate. I have not been active on this forum but have been reading yours and others threads for many years.

Again, I appreciate the thoughtful response and for the shared wisdom
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I wish I could say I have some special talent or skill with fish. I have been as lucky as I have been smart for sure. There are plenty of folks on this site who are truly experts. Some of them I know and others I know by reputation. I just tend to be a bit more :vocal" I think. Part of this may be the fact that I do not participate on any social media sites.

I could make a list of people here who make me look like a beginner, but I am afraid I would omit too many good people. If I have one talent that helps here, it would be that I live with my fish in that I have tanks all over my home including the bedroom and bathroom. So I cannot help but observing them wherever I turn. I am also lucky in that a lot of the real pros out there have been pretty nice to me when I annoyed them with questions.

What I can say about this hobby is there is a not well defined line which, when anybody crosses it, that moves them from a basic fish keeper towards being a fish nut. Once one crosses that line it becomes more of an obsession than just a hobby. Any one of us could spend their entire life devoted to learning about fish and when we finally die, we would still only have scraped the surface of all the information out there. That is what makes fish keeping such fun and such a challenge.

I have been at this going into my 17th year. Compared to many here I am still a baby. But, if nothing else tells me I have managed to learn and gain some skill, it is the fact that the number of fish I keep vs the number of fish that die has changed greatly. I have more fish than ever before and yet I also have fewer problems with illness and losing fish. I cannot say exactly what I have learned or when I learned it to achieve this.

If you want to know who the truly accomplished breeders of catfish are here, take a look at the breeder reports on this site.
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by Phreeflow »

Well, I must echo what you've shared and admit that I have also crossed that line from casual hobbyist to obsessed fish nut. And after all these years with multiple tank syndrome, I still have a long list of fish I still want to keep and am always running out of tank space..lol. I've kept a lot and lost a lot but never stopped learning. Plecos are my new challenge and fascination and they only get more interesting.

I'm also old school and don't do social media so I'm glad there are still some folks sharing on these forums and keeping them alive. There is a treasure trove of info in these forums and it would be a shame to let these archives fade out.

Well, in the world of plecos, I still strive for your success with these fish. Appreciate the kind advice and I look forward to seeing your progress with your L236...they look amazing!
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Re: Love is in the air, err water.

Post by TwoTankAmin »

I have repeatedly told people that I am not a particularly skilled fish keeper and by no means an accomplished breeder. I try to explain that my well water seems to contain some sort of natural fish aphrodisiac. Along those lines i can report the following.

Yesterday it was finally possible for me to institute the last in a planed upgrade and rehoming of tanks and fish. I had a 20 gal. tank I started using as a place to put l236 fry. When I returned from CatCon is when it got turned to that purpose and in went 3 large sub-adults and a few youngsters. Since then I got a couple more spawns and they too went into this 20 gal. The breeder tank won't support fry so I have to use a growout. I usually move the cave first to a trap on the breeder tank and thenas the fry get near to fee swimming it all goes into a grow tank. About a week after the fry emerge, and dad has been rested and well fed, I return dad and cave to the breeder tank.

After the last spawn, life and other fish considerations caused me to leave the dad in the grow tank for about 6 weeks until yesterday. I pulled the dad and then began to pull everything else to move them to a 40 gal breeder tank. The final count was 32 fish. Among them were what was clearly a recent spawn which had to have occurred in the grow tank. (Considering some losses due to a bit of neglect, 32 fish is about 3 spawns worth.) So in an overstocked tank not being run for spawning, and occasionally neglected, I still got a spawn. This is not skill, this is not experience, it is simply good luck and "magic" water as far as I am concerned. When I entitled this thread, I really meant it about love is in the water........
No one has ever become poor by giving.” Anonymous
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”" Daniel Patrick Moynihan
"The good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
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