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L244 Sexing: Now with a spawn and fry

Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 16:57
by Mol_PMB
For a couple of years now I've had two in a community tank. My belief is that they are both males.

As part of a rearrangement of my tanks and fish, I took them out of that tank today and placed them in a tank of their own, where I have previously bred a couple of other small Loricariidae species. During the move, I took some closeup photos of the two fish from above.

Are they both males?
Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 18:24
by bekateen
Beautiful fish! ;-)

I don't know how hairy females get, but your two fish look different to me.

The top photo shows a fish with a more pointed snout and what look like smaller odontodes relative to the fish in the second photo, which is hairier and has a round snout.

All that would lead me to think the top is female and the bottom male.

However, the fish in the upper photo is narrow through the midbody, but the bottom photo shows a fish that has a wider midsection.

Are these two fish the same size/length?

About the pelvic fins, I'm having difficulty telling whether they differ. It may be my eyes playing tricks on me, but the fish in the upper photo may have shorter pelvics (female).

Can you get photos from a ventral view?

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 18:41
by Mol_PMB
Thanks Eric :)
I agree with you, there are distinct differences in head shape and the odontodes, and also in body shape, but they seem contradictory. I hadn't noticed the extent of some of these differences until I posted up these photos, so it's good that you have noticed the same features.

Both fish are of similar size, about 90-100mm SL.

Within a couple of hours of going into their own tank, I spotted them cosied up to each other as in the third photo. They stayed like that for several minutes but have since gone off exploring some more.

Now that they're in a tank of their own, it should be easier for me to get them out for more photos. I'll see if I can set up something to enable me to get good ventral photos. I might leave it a day or two as they've been stressed out by the moves today.

I presently have the opportunity to buy a third fish (pricey, smaller, and not very local, but they're rarely seen for sale here).

Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 20:32
by Jobro
Odonthodes are not telling much on some species.

I would guess they are related to Dekeyseria/Zonancistrus. Did not see any pseudolithoxus in real before though, but all the pictures look quite similiar. I would try to look at the dorsal fins. long = male, short = female.

I see chances you have a female. Bodyshape is a little intriguing here, but some females will only get rounder once they want to breed. Feed them up with artemia/brineshrimp, black mosquito larvae, shrimp etc.

Stunning fish! :)

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 05 Mar 2017, 20:41
by Mol_PMB
Many thanks! Perhaps I was placing too much importance on odontodes and body shape originally. There are certainly differences in shape between the two.

I know behaviour can be misleading, but they have always seemed very tolerant of each other and comfortable close together - I've never seen them fight. To me that also suggests that two males is a bit less likely.

I'll try and get some more photos this week. They're really beautiful fish and I'd love to breed them - it has been done a couple of times.

Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 19:25
by Mol_PMB
The fish pictured here is surely a male:
http://www.loricariidae.no/loricariidae ... _L244.html
Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 06 Mar 2017, 19:34
by bekateen
Without a doubt, yes.

And I don't know if it is sexually distinctive, but the male in that link has a very round snout/head, like the fish in your second photo. Not like the fish in your first photo.

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 10 Mar 2017, 09:22
by Mol_PMB
Yesterday I put both fish in a 10L tank for photography. This was a bit of a rough setup so apologies for the reflections and image quality in some cases.
However, I think the images do show something useful.
Firstly, three photos showing both fish together.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 10 Mar 2017, 09:31
by Mol_PMB
Next, some photos of the lighter-coloured, slightly smaller fish. With a more pointed head, shorter pectorals and smaller/fewer odontodes, I think this is likely to be a female.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 10 Mar 2017, 09:37
by Mol_PMB
Finally, a couple of views of the slightly larger, darker coloured fish. With a semicircular head, impressive odontodes and long pectorals, I'm pretty sure this is a male.

Do you think I'm right?

I've decided to purchase a third, smaller fish which is currently available, as I see this species so rarely in the shops. I suspect it's also a male but based on experience with these two over the past few years, it might be too young to tell.
After QT I'll put it in my pleco breeding tank with the others and wait and see what happens...

Many thanks,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 12 Mar 2017, 10:41
by Jobro
Nice Pictures. Well, we can tell you got one male :D the other one could very well be a female if you ask me.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 12 Mar 2017, 13:09
by Acanthicus
Hi,

the original two are a pair. Odontodes don't tell that much in this genus, but the length of pectoral and ventral fins are quite distinct, also the bodyshape when well fed, but since its always a little difficult to tell what "well fed" looks like, I'd go for morphological characteristics that are firm.

The new one is a male I'd say.

cheers, Daniel

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 12 Mar 2017, 15:17
by Mol_PMB
Many thanks :)
I'll take some more photos of the new one in a week or two once it has settled in - it's only half the size of the others.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 12 Mar 2017, 23:22
by bekateen
Acanthicus wrote: 12 Mar 2017, 13:09The new one is a male I'd say.
Hi Daniel,

If I understand Paul's comments, these last photos are of his original male, not the new fish.

Otherwise, I agree that the two current fish are probably a pair, especially when comparing lengths of pectoral and pelvic fins.

My only puzzlement is this: Paul has had these two fish a while, and Paul is an experienced fish keeper who takes good care of his fish. These fish are not small juveniles. With all that background, I'm surprised the female is not fuller in body girth. Shouldn't she look fatter by now, if "she" is really a she?

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 13 Mar 2017, 07:05
by Mol_PMB
Thanks Eric, you're right that I haven't yet posted photos of the new fish. It's in QT at the moment after a long journey on Saturday; when I move it to join the others in a few weeks I'll take some decent photos.

The existing two fish have been in a busy community tank for a couple of years. While they're the only plecs in there, they would have been competing for food with a big herd of Corydoras and a couple of Brachyrhamdia.
Although I tried to target feed the L244s they may not have been getting as much food as I would have liked.
Now they're in their own tank that's not a problem and from the amount of poo they're producing they are eating well!

Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 15 Mar 2017, 19:08
by Jobro
I don't think all female plecos will be as fat as hypancistrus, peckoltia and some others often are.
L168 females were just as slim as the males on me and they still spawned.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 20 Mar 2017, 10:27
by Mol_PMB
Last night I moved the new juvenile into the pleco breeding tank with the other two adult fish.

I took a couple of dorsal views, attached. Unfortunately I didn't have time to set up the photo tank for ventral views.

This fish is just over half the size of the other two, about 50mm SL. It's probably too young to be sure of the sex.

I bought some more caves at the CSG convention and have added them to the pleco breeding tank; there are now about 20 caves in there of various different sizes, shapes, open and closed ended etc. There are also some stacks of rocks and tangles of wood. Hopefully they'll find something suitable.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 07:15
by Jools
Fingers crossed - and very nice to see you again at the convention weekend.

Cheers,

Jools

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 22 Mar 2017, 07:37
by Mol_PMB
Thanks Jools - it was great to chat with you and I really enjoyed the convention.
(Also came home to find my Cory burgessi had spawned for the first time, which was a nice surprise)

On the L244s, I've recently got in touch with Elko who was the first to breed . He has confirmed that my adults are a M/F pair and the juvenile is most likely a male.
Now I need to apply some patience :)

I'll keep looking for more L244s but they're scarce.

Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 01 Aug 2018, 19:39
by Mol_PMB
Today I found a shop with about 10 so I have added another fish to my group (now a total of 4).
The group seem to continue to co-exist peacefully and spend most of their time hiding in the tangle of caves and wood in their tank. I try not to disturb them too much, just doing water changes and feeding Repashy gel cubes and occasionally vegetables. Maybe one day they'll spawn?

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 01 Aug 2018, 20:09
by bekateen
Hi Paul,

Glad to learn you found another. Good luck with them. Pictures please to see how they're growing. :-)

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 05 Aug 2018, 11:34
by Mol_PMB
Thanks Eric.
I bought a fifth fish yesterday as well. The two new ones are one of each sex as far as I can tell, and they're adults about 90mm to 100mm SL.
At the moment I'm leaving them undisturbed to settle in to the tank. At some stage I ought to get them all out for some new photos, but not just yet.
Cheers,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 17 Dec 2018, 21:32
by Mol_PMB
Back in August I was able to add two more fish to this tank, so there are a total of 5, from 4 different suppliers at different times. Recently the biggest fish (one of the new ones) had been spending a lot of time at the front of the tank, often visible and quite bold, but I hadn't seen the others for ages. I thought it was about time to check they were OK.

About once a year I take all the decor out of my L244 tank and reassemble with a new layout. It's an opportunity to give the substrate a good clean, and perhaps shake up the territories and encourage the males and females to find each other in the network of crevices and caves. Or perhaps it just stresses them out and sets back any chance of breeding - who knows? Anyway, while they were out of the tank I took the chance to take a few quick photos of the fish. Now that they're all settled and well fed, perhaps we can be more confident with identifying the sexes? Maybe I have no babies because they're all boys, or perhaps I just need more patience?

Here are similar photos of all 5 fish, annotated with their sizes in SL. Size varies from 75mm SL to 115mm SL.

The diagnostic features I'm aware of (head shape, fin size, body shape, odontodes) are a bit confusing. Fish 5 is the biggest one and has a very rounded head, tapered body and plenty of whiskers, so I guess it's a male. 3 and 4 might be females (though 4 is relatively smaller so may be immature)?

Any thoughts welcome.

Best Regards,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 17 Dec 2018, 23:17
by bekateen
I'm inclined to 3 M, 2 F (possibly 4:1, see below). You've got two specimens both 90 mm. One is hairy as can be on its pectoral spines, the other not so. I think that's your difference. The smallest fish at 75mm also isn't very hairy. Could be a female, or maybe males at that age don't have many odontodes.

Looking great Paul. Good luck with them.

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 18 Dec 2018, 16:18
by Mol_PMB
Hi Eric,

Many thanks for your thoughts; I agree.

In the tank rescape I have tried to provide a variety of caves and crevices of different sizes and shapes so hopefully there will be something to suit each fish.

They feed almost entirely on Repashy, a cocktail of Morning Wood, Soilent Green, Bottom Scratcher, Spawn&Grow, with added Chlorella and Spirulina. They seem to love that and tend to ignore most other foods, though they occasionally nibble on courgette or red pepper.

Perhaps I just need more patience!

I’m not sure whether there are any particular spawning triggers for this genus? Perhaps I need to play with water temperatures, powerhead flow and TDS.

Regards,
Paul

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 24 Dec 2018, 18:29
by Mol_PMB
Something interesting is happening. After having all my out of the tank last week for photos and a clean-up and rescape, the five fish have settled back in, with the big male preferring the front corner of the tank where he was before, even though the decor has changed somewhat.

This morning I found he had been doing some scaping of his own. The layer of substrate outside his preferred crevice and cave was swept clean, and piled up in a wall around. I've seen one of my Pseudacanthicus do this (in a different tank) with big sweeps of the tail.

I've seen him in this area many times today, but on at least 4 separate occasions I've also seen another fish very nearby, one of the medium-sized ones. Often in the adjacent cave, or in a crevice beside it. I think I once saw the two fish interacting in the same cave, though only briefly.

I've not observed this type of behaviour from my L244s before. Fingers crossed they're up to something! The Corydoras burgessi in the tank above them spawned 2 days ago, and my Corydoras oiapoquensis spawned last night and are having another go right now as I write this, so maybe love is in the water...

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 24 Dec 2018, 19:09
by bekateen
Oh, eggs would be a great Christmas present!

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 18:47
by Mol_PMB
There has certainly been a lot of activity in the front corner of the tank recently, involving the big male and possibly two other fish. The male is spending a lot of time in a particular cave, and this afternoon he kept adjusting his position in the cave, like tossing and turning in bed, before settling a bit. I can't decide whether I could definitely see another fish in there with him, or whether I was just seeing various bits of the same fish! Those pectorals are so big that they can look like another tail at times. There was certainly another fish watching from outside.

Apologies for the photo quality, the tank is usually fairly gloomy and we're looking at an angle through the glasss, so I'm pushing my DSLR to the limit.

In the nearly 5 years I've been keeping examples of this species, I've never seen so much activity. In fact it's been pretty rare to see even one tail at a time.

I'm celebrating a couple of hatchlings in the Corydoras nurseries today - burgessi and oiapoquensis. Probably I'm being too hopeful that there might be some Pseudolithoxus eggs in that cave.

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 18:51
by bekateen
A spawn would be a great present. Good luck, Paul!

Cheers, Eric

Re: L244 Sexing

Posted: 27 Dec 2018, 22:45
by racoll
Looks promising ... fingers crossed!