Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by Jools »

This makes no commercial sense. You can bred zebras (as fish go they are low fecundity and high tech) anywhere in the world but it’s easier where there is good water and transport links.
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by Walter »

Hi,
There are efforts in Brazil to breed Zebras and start a "ornamental fish breeding industry", to protect Zebras in the wild and give work to fishermen (yes, they wanted the fishermen to "change job"), but wo far without success.
Hard for Brazilians to do this, because they do not have any "ornamental fish breeding tradition", as for examples the Southeast Asians do (and Europeans).
Neighbouring countries? Well, I personally do not know any ornamental fish breeding in e.g. Peru or Columbia, either, and they are far away from Xingu, do not have Xingu water (what is not necessary to breed Zebras anyway).

I still think all those wild caught zebras nowadays, are the so called "Columbia Zebras", which did the way Xingu - Belem - Manaus - Columbia.
Or they are captivity bred ones and "mislabelled".

But I also guess, Asia is the better market for those illegally exported fishes, than North America and EU, where the rules are much stricter.
I regulary get messages on Facebook from Asians, who ask me for Brazilian fishes (I am no fish dealer or exporter or fisherman at all, but I have tons of pictures of Amazonian fishes in the wild on my FB page, and that is why those people probably think I am in this industry), and I get messages from South Americans (not Brazilians), who ask me to buy fishes from them. So there for sure IS a market for those illegally caught fishes.

Zebras are probably the most wanted ornamental freshwater fishes nowadays, because their export is forbidden, and if there would be a legal way to export wildcaught zebras with Cites from Brazil, for sure a lot of people would know this and this would not be "a secret".


Ask the dealer again for permissions...


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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by TwoTankAmin »

Oh the sacrifice of logic. How many members on this site own zebra plecos? According to the L nymber page 392 members admit to it.

It has never been permitted to export zebras from Brazil.

I think before IBAMA there were no regulations at all, but that did not make it legal to remove the fish.

So what is the source/origin of any zebra owned by any member of this site?

They all trace back to wild caught zebras. The only question is how many are actually wild caught or how many generations they might be removed from wild caught?

The single best way I can think of to have curtailed the illegal trade in wild caught zebras was for there to be a sufficient supply of captive bred fish to meet the demand. And the best way to have made that happen with the least damage to wild populations would have been for there to have been a different set of regulations. A fixed/controlled number of wild zebras should have been allowed for export every year. This would have helped establish captive breeding without all the deaths that come with smuggling. There is a whole cascade of other benefits which could have fallen into place from this as well.

It should now be the rainy season for the Xingu. I would ask those members who are there now or who travel there with any regularity to describe how the Big Bend looks these days? How are the water levels? How is the water quality?
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by Jools »

That’s not true is was perfectly legal to export these fishes from Brazil before the Positive List. Also, you can’t tell how many of the registered populations are captive bred. All mine are.

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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by Walter »

TwoTankAmin wrote: 16 Nov 2017, 18:58

It should now be the rainy season for the Xingu. I would ask those members who are there now or who travel there with any regularity to describe how the Big Bend looks these days? How are the water levels? How is the water quality?
No,
now is end of dry season, start of rainy season, waters at lowest levels. High waters are later, in the beginning of the year, up to April, May, June...

Does not make much sense for fish people to go there in the first half of the year, won't see much.
I was once in February and once in April, could see nearly nothing under water and because of the high water it is much harder to catch fishes (I was not there because of this).

Best time to go there is September, ... August to October, maybe November... seasons are not the same each year.

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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by gehandylan »

Here's an interesting read ....

http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/11/ ... s-listing/

Here's an extract from this credible article that sums up the legality of WC L46 .....

"It’s been over a decade since wild-caught H. zebra could be legally obtained in the aquarium trade."
Last edited by gehandylan on 17 Nov 2017, 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by gehandylan »

@Jools

When did the positive list come into effect that made the collection, transportation and sale of WC L46 out of Brazil illegal?

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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by MarcW »

Hi Gehan,

After a bit of searching I believe the first version of the positive list came into effect some when in 2012, there is a thread discussing it here: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... =5&t=34434

As this was ~5 years ago, it is possible that there are some 5-6 year old + wild caught Zebras in captivity which were exported before the ban and could be being sold on now. Although there are issues to be overcome if a previously WC or even tank raised zebra is moved across borders, in 2016 it was added to CITIES Appendix 3, which means to trade it you need certificates of origin and maybe other additional documentation.

Addition of Hypancistrus Zebra to CITIES Appendix 3 (open the first pdf result): https://www.cites.org/eng/search/site/h ... us%20zebra
Article covering it (same as you linked to above): https://www.reef2rainforest.com/2016/11 ... s-listing/
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by TwoTankAmin »

There is a thread here on PC from Dec. 2004 discussing this topic. One of the things it covers is there actually was a ban on the import of specific fish, which included zebras, at about that time. In that thread there is also a discussion of the up coming permitted list.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... c&start=30

Here is the relevant quote:
What you said are true. Zebra is temporarily prohibited for trading, pending a study and evaluation. Brazilian ichthyologists are currently revising a new list of permitted species with IBAMA. The new list probably will include 600-700 freshwater fishes that can be exported. It is an impossible task to inspect fishes.
the above was posted by:
Prof. Ning Labbish Chao, PhD
Departamento de Ciências Pesqueiras
Universidade do Amazonas - Projeto Piaba
Av. Gal. Rodrigo Otavio Jordão Ramos, 3000
69700-000 Manaus - AM, Brazil

So it seems as if two things are true- One is that there was a time when zebra plecos were specifically banned from being caught or exported. Also that the was some sort of permitted list well before 2012.

The other interesting part of the thread is where it indicates the permitted list was apparently only 400 species and that the new list would likely contain 600-700 fish.

There is another thread from about 6 months earlier which supports the above http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... c&start=30
That thread indicates that zebras are prohibited from being fished let alone not allowed for export.

@Walter
The information I have read indicated that the onset of the rainy season for the central Brazil region usually starts between Sept and Nov. So I thought perhaps this was the time the water levels in the Big Bend should be rising. Since the official posture is that water levels will be maintained at peak dry season levels year round, I was looking for confirmation from somebody actually there that the normal rise was not happening or that this info was wrong a water levels were indeed rising. Please keep us posted.

@Jools
I have never heard of a registered population of zebras. Is this something unique to the UK or the EU. And then I would also ask, how can anybody prove they have either tank raised or wild caught fish? A certificate can be forged or be an outright lie. So while the idea behind them may be a good one, it does not actually guarantee the source of a fish using verified science. As far as I know this is not possible, at least not without killing the fish to try and determine this?

Finally, I acquired my proven breeder group in Apr. 2006 along with several fry. These fish had to be in the 3 to 4 year old range. I wonder if any of them were illegally removed from Brazil? However, here is what I do know. I placed many 100s of F1 zebras with other fish keeper since early 2007. Every group of the tank raised fish that went out mean two things. The first was the buyer would hopefullly grow them out and get them spawning. That would make more tank raised fish available. Morover, every one I placed was one less zebra that might have had to come out of the Xingu to meet that demand.

let's assume for the sake of discussion that all 13 zebras in my group had been originally removed from Brazil in violation of the law or regulations. Didn't that actually have the effect of saving other fish still there? I would observe that in 2006, and especially earlier, is was not easy to find F1 zebras. Today this is no longer true.

Only more time will tell if the zebras survive in the wild. I am in the camp of those who believe they will not. However, in considering the illegal removal of them and the potential consequences of that vs the reverse have different outcomes if one vie or the other proves to be wrong.

If those who believe they will not survive the dam are correct, then the illegal removal has created a worldwide captive population the will preserve the species. If we are wrong and the illegal removal crashes the wild population, could it not be re-established from captive populations returned to the the Xingu as long as the conditions there could still support them? On the other hand if those who believe no wilds should be collected since we do not know for sure they won't survive are wrong and they are wiped out, they are lost forever. Which point of view will have the worst outcome if it is incorrect?

I am not so sure how black and white this whole issue really is (excuse the pun).
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by gehandylan »

This is a general comment and not aimed at any forum member whether you are a part of this thread or not .........

If we opt to buy WC L46 after being well aware of the WC L46 export ban in Brazil (no matter how honorable the intentions are about the conservation of L46 due to possible risks from Belo Monte dam), we then become knowing and active participants of the WC Zebra smuggling chain. We are in effect helping and supporting smugglers violate laws of the country where Zebras originate. This illegal supply chain only thrives because of the demand we the buyers create. The possible risks to WC Zebras from the Belo Monte Dam does not make the purchase of WC Zebras less illegal!

PS. I am just a novice Zebra keeper and not experts like most of you in the forum.
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by Walter »

Hi,
TwoTankAmin wrote: 17 Nov 2017, 16:45 @Walter
The information I have read indicated that the onset of the rainy season for the central Brazil region usually starts between Sept and Nov. So I thought perhaps this was the time the water levels in the Big Bend should be rising. Since the official posture is that water levels will be maintained at peak dry season levels year round, I was looking for confirmation from somebody actually there that the normal rise was not happening or that this info was wrong a water levels were indeed rising. Please keep us posted.
Well, I can give you only first hand information of being there for about 2 years and information of the locals there.
I also always had problems to determine high- and lowwater seasons and rainy seasons in the Amazon basin (e.g. using the Smithonian Atlas of the Amazon).
I have always been told, that seasons differ within the Amazon area widely, and every year is different.

My own experience: September seems to be the best month for (ornamental) fishing/diving nearly everywhere in central Amazonia, or let's say August - December. Lowest water levels do not necessarily mean best time, because it is hard or even impossible to go to some places (e.g. Rio Negro Igarapes/tributaries) by boad, because of low levels.
This "September is best" own experience is valid for lower Negro river, central Solimoes river, Tapajos, Xingu, Araguaia, Purus (maybe November).
Lowest water levels probably October - December (depending of start of rains), normal "rainy season" starts around Christmas, rising levels up to April, May, ...
High water means also turbid water (concerning clearwater rivers and also blackwater tributaries to Negro), won't mostly see much underwater.
Low water means clearwater. But this clearwater is not that "crystal clear" as someone may think, as e.g. some Cenotes in Mexico show, or Alpine lakes here in Austria. Snorkeling here in Austria in Danube river (Neue Donau) under good weather conditions I have probably a better visibility than in Xingu or Tapajos. This was a big surprise for me (when I came to those clearwater Amazon tributaries for the first time).

Do not have any experience in Amazon waters of the Andes... so it may be different there.

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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by gehandylan »

@jools

Thanks for sharing the links.
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Re: Wild Caught Zebra Plecos

Post by Jools »

No worries. BTW, the other issue with breeding this fish in Brazil is if they're illegal to fish and export from the wild, then how to customs etc tell the difference between those shipped out from farms and those from the wild.

It would be, in my view, very hard to export anything larger than 6-8cm fishes.

Jools
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