Chronic Cory fin rot problems

[Daphnia]

Sounds great. I have looked up the images of your fish species in the internet, very exotic indeed. You are lucky. Adaptation of new species for captivity is so interesting, challenging and important for conservation of rare species, some of which are not yet identified, but already endangered - I've read some articles in Practical Fishkeeping. I do feel amazed.
Could you, please, advise me on a type of worm that I can grow in my garden/polytunnel during summer? (our house is really small and I am not allowed to bring in worms.) and, if such worms exist, could you send me some eggs by post? I don't need many, as I only have 10 small fish (6 Bronze Corys + 4 Harlequin Rasboras), which I want to treat with live food twice a week for mutual entertainment and supporting their health (with no intention to breed, as there is no space for that here).

[Mol_PMB]

I'd say you could keep microworms or grindal worms in those conditions during summer.

Here's a thread I wrote (on a different forum) which includes a description of how I keep both of these types of worms:
http://www.tropicalfishforums.co.uk/ind ... 402.0.html
The challenge when keeping them in the garden would be to keep the other wildlife out so you would need some very fine mesh over the holes in the boxes.

I could easily send you small packets of either (or both) types of live worms to get you started; you'll need to get the rest of the ingredients.

Drop me a personal message with your address and I'll send some this weekend.

Cheers,
Paul

[Daphnia]

Hi Paul, I've prepared homes for the creatures. I've also enjoyed the videos of Corys in their natural habitat you posted earlier. And I've tried to think of possible explanations why a slight mineralization of water has worked for my aquarium. There are two:
1) It is believed that KH > 80 ppm (4.5 d) is needed for sufficient buffering capacity in planted aquaria to prevent pH swings day-night due to CO2 coming from respiration of plants at night. Such pH swings can stress fish, at least weaker individuals [info from the internet].
2) In soil science [my profession] the biological activity of soil is characterized by fungal:bacterial (F:B) ratio, and the lower soil pH the higher this ratio. Just an idea, what if there is a similar interplay in aquaria, with F="bad" fungal pathogens, b="good" nitrogen bacteria (lower pH - more pathogens?). This suggestion seems to contradict the fact that microflora copes well in soft acidic waters of South America. However, maybe just our commercial N-cycle bacteria (designed for average H parameters, would that matter?) get sometimes outcompeted by local fungal pathogens in soft acidic waters. Another observation on F:B ratio comes from my garden: I've successfully cured fungal diseases of few plants by dressing soil with CaCO3:MgSO4=3:1.

[Mol_PMB]

I won't get a chance to get to the post office today, but I'll send them to you tomorrow. Hope that's OK.
Cheers,
Paul

[Daphnia]

Hi Paul,
Of course, tomorrow or so, will be fine. Just drop me a message, please, when you manage to send them - and I'll be waiting for the postman the next days.
Maybe my F:B ratio hypothesis sounds crazy, but I'd appreciate if you tell me exactly what you think, doesn't matter - for or against - I only want to find the truth for myself. I think that good and bad microorganisms are in constant competition for colonising every substrate in aquarium (filter, gravel, plants, fish skin), and if the good ones are encouraged to squeeze the bad ones out of the water completely, then fish has a better chance to supress their skin pests by their own immunity. Medications used to eliminate the baddies can also stress fish and thus undermine their immune response. A small and gradual increase in hardness, as a temporary alternative remedy, should not cause as much stress as medications, am I wrong? By the way, what are your impressions from using phenoxyethanol (Interpet Anti Fungus and Finrot)? Did you notice any side effects? Nobody was too sedated?
Best regards,
Inga

[dw1305]

Hi all,

It is believed that KH > 80 ppm (4.5 d) is needed for sufficient buffering capacity in planted aquaria to prevent pH swings day-night due to CO2 coming from respiration of plants at night. Such pH swings can stress fish, at least weaker individuals.......

It isn't actually true for fish from soft water.

Tanks with some dKH are easier to manage, but you will always get some diurnal variations in pH in planted tanks, even ones with heavily carbonate buffered water. Changes in pH caused by changes in the oxygen:CO2 ratio don't actually change the alkalinity of the water, you've just moved the CO2~HCO3-~2CO3~pH equilibrium point.

I only keep planted tanks, because plants massively help with water quality management.

Fish from soft water will always experience fluctuations in pH and, as you move towards pure H2O, pH becomes a fairly meaningless parameter.

The only way to ensure a really stable pH is to use a pH buffer, (usually based on NaH2PO4:Na2HPO4 (conjugated acid and base)), and that is a pointless, and self-defeating, approach.

2) In soil science [my profession] the biological activity of soil is characterized by fungal:bacterial (F:B) ratio, and the lower soil pH the higher this ratio. Just an idea, what if there is a similar interplay in aquaria, with F="bad" fungal pathogens, b="good" nitrogen bacteria (lower pH - more pathogens?). This suggestion seems to contradict the fact that microflora copes well in soft acidic waters of South America. However, maybe just our commercial N-cycle bacteria (designed for average H parameters, would that matter?) get sometimes outcompeted by local fungal pathogens in soft acidic waters. Another observation on F:B ratio comes from my garden: I've successfully cured fungal diseases of few plants by dressing soil with CaCO3:MgSO4=3:1.

Very soft, acidic "black water" has a very low microbial load, and that is one of the reasons that black-water fish are difficult to keep in harder water.

There is quite a lot of recent (RNA based) work on the nitrifying organisms in aquarium filters, and it has shown that these communities are a lot more diverse than had initially been suggested.

You could have a look at "PlanetCatfish: Cycling Question"(viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41965)> and "PlanetCatfish:Using deep gravel...." (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41038) for a more in depth discussion.

cheers Darrel

[Daphnia]

Thanks again, Darrel! Hydrobiochemistry discussions in these links are really in depth, very interesting and I'll have to spend more time on those. There is a similar tendency in soil science to reveal more and more complex interactions in soil biota. I still don't understand, what goes on in my aquarium with all those minerals, but I will try for experiment to gradually decrease my complex mineralization. After all, it is likely that my fish used to have skin problems because of lowered immunity due to a lack of nutritious food, and there was nothing to do with hydrobiochemistry.

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Darrel!

[dw1305]

Hi all,

Thanks again, Darrel! Hydrobiochemistry discussions in these links are really in depth, very interesting and I'll have to spend more time on those. There is a similar tendency in soil science to reveal more and more complex interactions in soil biota. I still don't understand, what goes on in my aquarium with all those minerals, but I will try for experiment to gradually decrease my complex mineralization. After all, it is likely that my fish used to have skin problems because of lowered immunity due to a lack of nutritious food, and there was nothing to do with hydrobiochemistry.

The simple answer is that we just don't know what is happening in the tank.

Diana Walstad has some data in "Ecology of the planted aquarium" (if you don't have a copy I would strongly recommend it)
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Ecolog ... 0967377366) and there are articles by Dr Stephan Tanner (http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/a ... iltration/) & Dr Tim Hovanec (http://www.alltropicalfish.com/saltwate ... a-revealed) & (http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources ... ogen-cycle).

There has been quite a lot of scientific work of "constructed wetlands" for waste water treatment, some of which specifically deal with aquaculture, and we could conjecture that similar processes are likely to be occurring in planted tanks.

cheers Darrel

[Mol_PMB]

Interesting stuff, many thanks!

Happily there are no fin rot problems in my Cory burgessi tank, although I do find that the majority of eggs go fungussy. Here's a cute shot of the only survivor from their first spawn (which I didn't segregate). I have five more half-inch fry from a more recent spawn in the nursery and hoping the adults spawn again soon.

[Daphnia]

a cute shot of the only survivor from their first spawn

Very cute indeed.

[Daphnia]

Diana Walstad has some data in "Ecology of the planted aquarium" (if you don't have a copy I would strongly recommend it)
(https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Ecolog ... 0967377366) and there are articles by Dr Stephan Tanner (http://www.swisstropicals.com/library/a ... iltration/) & Dr Tim Hovanec (http://www.alltropicalfish.com/saltwate ... a-revealed) & (http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resources ... ogen-cycle).

Darrel, thanks for interesting links. I've read the articles and maybe will get the book one day. I didn't know that there is no Nitrobacter, but Nitrospira converting nitrites to nitrates in aquariums.

Paul, in connection with fungal growth, I'd like to share my observation on alder cones. Some, which I put directly into aquarium, are remaining always free of fungus, gradually turning from light to dark brown over couple months till they almost completely decomposed and I bury them into the gravel near to plant roots. The others, which I put in the jar to infuse the tap water to add into aquarium upon water change, are undergoing a different scenario of decomposition: in two weeks they start to turn black and get overgrown with white fungus and I throw them away. So, for alder cones, there is bacterial decomposition in aquarium water and fungal in tap water. Did you notice the same with your alder cones?

Inga

[Mol_PMB]

That's interesting about the alder cones. I wonder if it's to do with water circulation and perhaps the availability of oxygen? I've noticed the gradual decomposition in my tanks. When I soak leaves, alder cones etc in a bucket to make black water, I usually have an airline bubbling in there.

[Daphnia]

That's interesting about the alder cones. I wonder if it's to do with water circulation and perhaps the availability of oxygen? I've noticed the gradual decomposition in my tanks. When I soak leaves, alder cones etc in a bucket to make black water, I usually have an airline bubbling in there.

I used to blame the absence of minerals, then the absence of N-bacteria to colonize the substrate before the 'whitish fluff' grows on it, but now I see you are right - it is surely because of absence of circulation, for you haven't got that thing because of the airline bubbling. The 'whitish fluff', to be honest, doesn't really look like fungus, but rather like local bacterial bloom feeding on exudate from those cones... However, my cones in a jar stay in very small amount of water, just to cover them up, so there couldn't be a lack of oxygen. Next I'll try to seed some N-bacteria in such jar and see if that makes any difference. Can N-bacteria colonize if there is no circulation, but probably enough oxygen - I'll see.

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Have you seen: "Medicinal trees:Common Alder": (https://www.aqualog.de/en/blog-en/medic ... mon-alder/)?

There is quite a bit of scientific work on the anti-microbial effects of Alnus species as well.
From "Antioxidant, cytotoxic, and antimicrobial activity of Alnus incana (L.) ssp. incana Moench and A. viridis (Chaix) DC ssp. viridis extracts."

....... In our experiment all extracts were virtually nontoxic on brine shrimps. Extracts were screened for activity against 15 microorganisms, and all extracts investigated showed antimicrobial activity. The most active were dry extracts of cones of A. incana and A. viridis with minimum inhibitory concentration values ranging from 0.117 to 0.129 mg/mL.

and "Antimicrobial and cytotoxic activity of Alnus glutinosa (L.) Gaertn., A. incana (L.) Moench, and A. viridis (Chaix) DC. extracts".

......Potential antimicrobial properties of A. glutinosa, A. incana, and A. viridis demonstrated in this study, as well as their low levels of toxicity, make them an interesting subject for further studies.

cheers Darrel

[Daphnia]

about the alder cones.

Hi Paul,

the alder cones after 2 weeks of being soaked in 100 ml water with 1ml of Filter Start, say, a huge dose of N-bacteria, are still missing the white fluff. I've also been changing the cones' water twice a week, as I added the infusion with water changes into the aquarium.

Sorry for the mineralization mess in previous posts, now I've completely re-thought the explanation. Firstly, I've read that finrot isn't fungal, but caused by one of several bacteria stains. Then, in my aquarium, for the first two months (last June-July) many cases of finrot were just a period of adaptation to the new aquarium, with mineralization being just a benign thing, but as I thought it was helping good bacteria to establish and squeeze the bad ones out - of course I was seeding huge dozes of Interpet Filter Start. I did the same during occasional finrot cases over autumn and winter, and now reached a long-desired fin-rot free stage (probably because I've finally learned to keep nitrate low). Saprolegnia was only the last June-July and never since. But, still, two Corys have a problem of chronic barbel erosion, which comes and goes so that barbels haven't got a chance to regrow properly. Probably live foods isn't the only measure I can take. I'll decrease my mineralization (GH from 7-8 down to 1-2 of tapwater), but not before I go to Russia next month, just after.

I wonder are there any news about your 2 Oiapoques with the finrot problem? Any better?

[josecatala]

Hi Everyone,

I know this is an old post, but I thought I post an update on my corys in my 72 gallon from a year and half ago. Out of the 7 remaining bronze ones, 5 ended up dying.... all with loss of barbels and fin rot. No matter what meds I tried, how many times I changed the water, nothing worked. The last two for some reason didn't succumb to what ever it was. They are still alive and doing reasonably well. Their barbels are still short and have not grown back. From time to time I notice the start of fin & tail rot and the shorting of the barbels from time to time and I would treat the tank with paraguard from Seachem for 7 days. That seemed to stop the fin rot. The parameters in the tank are all good. Angelfish breed every two weeks and I have not had any other loss of fish. But....
about two months ago, I took some plant trimmings from this tank and put it into two of my other tanks and now I noticed that there is the start of barbel loss on a couple of other cory cats. I don't know if its a coincidence or not.
but I'll start treating those tanks also with paraguard. Only difference, is I'm going to do it for 2 weeks instead of 7 days. I'm now wondering if this could be a type of parasite. Paraguard says it does treat ectoparasites. The 2 corys in the 72 gallon will be 5 years old in Nov. of this year. The other two are probably over 2 years old. Hard to tell with so many of them in the tanks. I'll post the outcome in a couple of weeks.