Bad incident, take some caution

All posts regarding the care and breeding of these catfishes from South America.
Post Reply
Viktor Jarikov
Posts: 5263
Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 20:11
My images: 11
My cats species list: 25 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 4
Location 1: Naples, FL
Location 2: USA

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you Ms Noodle, for the helpful links and all you guys too. Hmm, there looks to be definitely something to it.

I'd say it'd be easier for me to believe if the use was recent, like within a minute or a few, and copious, then even the methanol hypothesis might gain traction. In 1 minute at room temp I imagine (perhaps erroneously) there would be no methanol left on one's hands, which would be present in trace amounts to start with anyway.

Methanol boils at 65 C or 149 F.

In 30 min I'd say surely forget methanol = technical grade ethanol hypothesis. It was either something else that doesn't evaporate quickly or at all, maybe the PEG = polyethyleneglycol, or your child (and you?) could have santised your hands first thing at home, no? Don't you do it, now especially during the pandemic, as the first thing as you come home - either sanitize or wash with soap?

Plus in 30 minutes an adult but even more so a child would touch and rub and stick their hands into and over great many objects, clothes, hair, body, etc. and likely wipe off most of whatever non-volatile residue was left.

But all in all, I am thankful you brought this up. I'd not want to take chances or experiment with my fish, even though I have no sanitizer in my fish rooms. Perhaps a really curious homemade scientist would study this issue with feeder fish in the name of reporting the findings and saving a myriad of other pet fish around the world. Do you think this'd be a good idea or would animal rights activists rip such a person a few new ones not seeing the forest for the trees?

It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans. If we are speaking of the usual, non-banned over the counter, government approved hand sanitizers of course... So we shouldn't use personal experience or overall human experience with sanitizers as a guide in thinking this over...
Thebiggerthebetter
fish-story.com
User avatar
Lycosid
Posts: 191
Joined: 20 Aug 2016, 21:18
My cats species list: 7 (i:0, k:2)
Spotted: 4
Location 1: United States
Location 2: North Carolina

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Lycosid »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 17:04 It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans.
Well, for us it's on our skin, which is a barrier against chemical harm. For a fish it gets into the gills, which are designed to allow chemicals (primarily oxygen and carbon dioxide, of course) to transfer into the fish's internal organs. I don't know anyone who injects hand sanitizer (or maybe I do and they're just not telling) but I would imagine that would be more comparable.
User avatar
MissNoodle
Posts: 461
Joined: 03 Oct 2019, 20:51
My articles: 1
My images: 31
My cats species list: 27 (i:27, k:5)
My aquaria list: 4 (i:4)
My BLogs: 7 (i:35, p:389)
My Wishlist: 10
Spotted: 42
Location 1: Ontario
Location 2: Canada

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by MissNoodle »

Interestingly searching ingredients...
We did use some foam based ones at one store prior to coming home which were not alcohol based.
Screenshot_20201120-194035_Samsung Internet.jpg
Go to the compound page.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzalkonium_chloride

Noted to be toxic
Screenshot_20201120-194440_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20201120-194506_Samsung Internet.jpg
And is actively being used during the pandemic
Screenshot_20201120-194406_Samsung Internet.jpg
Corydoras, Hoplosternum, Farlowella, Pleco
Bas Pels
Posts: 2898
Joined: 21 Dec 2006, 20:35
My images: 1
My cats species list: 28 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 7
Location 1: the Netherlands
Location 2: Nijmegen the Netherlands
Interests: Central American and Uruguayan fishes

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Bas Pels »

This stuff is used without any notification to the user? Incredible!
cats have whiskers
User avatar
MissNoodle
Posts: 461
Joined: 03 Oct 2019, 20:51
My articles: 1
My images: 31
My cats species list: 27 (i:27, k:5)
My aquaria list: 4 (i:4)
My BLogs: 7 (i:35, p:389)
My Wishlist: 10
Spotted: 42
Location 1: Ontario
Location 2: Canada

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by MissNoodle »

Bas Pels wrote: 22 Nov 2020, 08:42 This stuff is used without any notification to the user? Incredible!
Its even labeled as nontoxic in their listings lol
https://www.sebocanada.ca/product/alcoh ... zer-550ml/

Marketed for schools
https://store.schoolspecialty.com/OA_HT ... em=1434917


But we DID use a foam one that day at the mall.
Corydoras, Hoplosternum, Farlowella, Pleco
Viktor Jarikov
Posts: 5263
Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 20:11
My images: 11
My cats species list: 25 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 4
Location 1: Naples, FL
Location 2: USA

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thank you so much for this homework.

Overall, it does appear to implicate the seemingly benign surfactant benzalkonium chloride ... albeit it has been used in great many products for consumer eye, mouth, etc. treatment. With the all the info laid out in the foregoing, I fail to propose anything else.

Triclosan is also mentioned along with the benzalkonium but it seems benign to fish, if I read its wikipedia page not too hastily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triclosan

From the benzalkonium page you linked above:

"Especially for its antimicrobial activity, benzalkonium chloride is an active ingredient in many consumer products:
Pharmaceutical products such as eye, ear and nasal drops or sprays, as a preservative
Personal care products such as hand sanitizers, wet wipes, shampoos, soaps, deodorants and cosmetics
Skin antiseptics and wound wash sprays, such as Bactine.[4][5]
Throat lozenges[6] and mouthwashes, as a biocide
Spermicidal creams
Cleaners for floor and hard surfaces as a disinfectant, such as Lysol and Dettol antibacterial spray and wipes.
Algaecides for clearing of algae, moss, lichens from paths, roof tiles, swimming pools, masonry, etc.

Benzalkonium chloride is also used in many non-consumer processes and products, including as an active ingredient in surgical disinfection. A comprehensive list of uses includes industrial applications.[7] An advantage of benzalkonium chloride, not shared by ethanol-based antiseptics or hydrogen peroxide antiseptic, is that it does not cause a burning sensation when applied to broken skin.[citation needed] However, prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis.[8]

During the course of the COVID-19 pandemic, from time to time there have been shortages of hand cleaner containing ethanol or isopropanol as active ingredients. The FDA has stated that benzalkonium chloride is eligible as an alternative for use in the formulation of healthcare personnel hand rubs.[9] However, in reference to the FDA rule, the CDC states that it does not have a recommended alternative to ethanol or isopropanol as active ingredients, and adds that "available evidence indicates benzalkonium chloride has less reliable activity against certain bacteria and viruses than either of the alcohols."[10]"


... But its concentrations may be far smaller than the 0.15% usually used in hand sanitizers... per this:

"Benzalkonium chloride is a frequently used preservative in eye drops; typical concentrations range from 0.004% to 0.01%. Stronger concentrations can be caustic[11] and cause irreversible damage to the corneal endothelium.[12]"

More relevant info from the same page:

"Adverse effects

Although historically benzalkonium chloride has been ubiquitous as a preservative in ophthalmic preparations, its ocular toxicity and irritant properties,[18] in conjunction with consumer demand, have led pharmaceutical companies to increase production of preservative-free preparations, or to replace benzalkonium chloride with preservatives which are less harmful.[citation needed]

Many mass-marketed inhaler and nasal spray formulations contain benzalkonium chloride as a preservative, despite substantial evidence that it can adversely affect ciliary motion, mucociliary clearance, nasal mucosal histology, human neutrophil function, and leukocyte response to local inflammation.[19] Although some studies have found no correlation between use of benzalkonium chloride in concentrations at or below 0.1% in nasal sprays and drug-induced rhinitis,[20] others have recommended that benzalkonium chloride in nasal sprays be avoided.[21][22] In the United States, nasal steroid preparations that are free of benzalkonium chloride include budesonide, triamcinolone acetonide, dexamethasone, and Beconase and Vancenase aerosol inhalers.[19]

Benzalkonium chloride is irritant to middle ear tissues at typically used concentrations. Inner ear toxicity has been demonstrated.[23]

Occupational exposure to benzalkonium chloride has been linked to the development of asthma.[24] In 2011, a large clinical trial designed to evaluate the efficacy of hand sanitizers based on different active ingredients in preventing virus transmission amongst schoolchildren was re-designed to exclude sanitizers based on benzalkonium chloride due to safety concerns.[25]


Benzalkonium chloride has been in common use as a pharmaceutical preservative and antimicrobial since the 1940s. While early studies confirmed the corrosive and irritant properties of benzalkonium chloride, investigations into the adverse effects of, and disease states linked to, benzalkonium chloride have only surfaced during the past 30 years.[citation needed]

Toxicology

RTECS lists the following acute toxicity data:[26]

Organism Route of exposure Dose (LD50)
Rat Intravenous 13.9 mg/kg
Rat Oral 240 mg/kg
Rat Intraperitoneal 14.5 mg/kg
Rat Subcutaneous 400 mg/kg
Mouse Subcutaneous 64 mg/kg

Benzalkonium chloride is a human skin and severe eye irritant.[27] It is a suspected respiratory toxicant, immunotoxicant, gastrointestinal toxicant, and neurotoxicant.[28][29][30]

Benzalkonium chloride formulations for consumer use are dilute solutions. Concentrated solutions are toxic to humans, causing corrosion/irritation to the skin and mucosa, and death if taken internally in sufficient volumes. 0.1% is the maximum concentration of benzalkonium chloride that does not produce primary irritation on intact skin or act as a sensitizer.[31]

Poisoning by benzalkonium chloride is recognised in the literature.[32] A 2014 case study detailing the fatal ingestion of up to 8.1 oz (240ml) of 10% benzalkonium chloride in a 78-year-old male also includes a summary of the currently published case reports of benzalkonium chloride ingestion. While the majority of cases were caused by confusion about the contents of containers, one case cites incorrect pharmacy dilution of benzalkonium chloride as the cause of poisoning of two infants.[33] In 2018 a Japanese nurse was arrested and admitted to having poisoned approximately 20 patients at a hospital in Yokohama by injecting benzalkonium chloride into their intravenous drip bags.[34][35]

Benzalkonium chloride poisoning of domestic pets has been recognised as a result of direct contact with surfaces cleaned with disinfectants using benzalkonium chloride as an active ingredient.[36]"
Thebiggerthebetter
fish-story.com
Viktor Jarikov
Posts: 5263
Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 20:11
My images: 11
My cats species list: 25 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 4
Location 1: Naples, FL
Location 2: USA

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Lycosid wrote: 21 Nov 2020, 00:17
Viktor Jarikov wrote: 20 Nov 2020, 17:04 It also makes me think the interaction of that unknown chemical and a fish organism must drastically differ in the mechanism and/or intensity versus human organism; otherwise, this would have been noted long ago and adjusted but as is, it doesn't present danger to humans.
Well, for us it's on our skin, which is a barrier against chemical harm. For a fish it gets into the gills, which are designed to allow chemicals (primarily oxygen and carbon dioxide, of course) to transfer into the fish's internal organs. I don't know anyone who injects hand sanitizer (or maybe I do and they're just not telling) but I would imagine that would be more comparable.
Right. I think I haven't clearly stated my thought. My scenario compares a dose received by a fish from trace sanitizer amounts left on one's hands and then stuck into the fish tank versus the same trace amounts on one's hands making their way through touching into one's eyes, nose, mouth, open cut / wound, etc.

Both trace amounts. Kills fish. Doesn't affect human whatsoever. Hence, the sensitivity thought. Very crude picture admittedly. The doses can be orders of magnitude different after all. A fish may be 10 gram while a human is 60 kg. Etc. My thought could easily be misleading.
Thebiggerthebetter
fish-story.com
Viktor Jarikov
Posts: 5263
Joined: 26 Jan 2010, 20:11
My images: 11
My cats species list: 25 (i:0, k:0)
Spotted: 4
Location 1: Naples, FL
Location 2: USA

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Fishman Chemical sells it for fish rooms... If we believe what it did to the OP and others, this sounds like flirting with disaster having it in one's fish room...

https://www.fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODU ... .Item.html

$145.00 per Gal.

Benzalkonium Chloride is an antibacterial, anti-viral. Good for sterilization, net dip and disinfectant.
Use 10 ml per gallon for net dip (make sure to rinse the nets before use). Also used to sterilize equipment or aquariums. This is a "very powerful" solution for sterilization. It is soap-like in nature so a good rinse is required after using it.
Thebiggerthebetter
fish-story.com
User avatar
MissNoodle
Posts: 461
Joined: 03 Oct 2019, 20:51
My articles: 1
My images: 31
My cats species list: 27 (i:27, k:5)
My aquaria list: 4 (i:4)
My BLogs: 7 (i:35, p:389)
My Wishlist: 10
Spotted: 42
Location 1: Ontario
Location 2: Canada

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by MissNoodle »

Viktor Jarikov wrote: 17 Dec 2020, 03:00 Fishman Chemical sells it for fish rooms... If we believe what it did to the OP and others, this sounds like flirting with disaster having it in one's fish room...

https://www.fishchemical.com/FULL-PRODU ... .Item.html

$145.00 per Gal.

Benzalkonium Chloride is an antibacterial, anti-viral. Good for sterilization, net dip and disinfectant.
Use 10 ml per gallon for net dip (make sure to rinse the nets before use). Also used to sterilize equipment or aquariums. This is a "very powerful" solution for sterilization. It is soap-like in nature so a good rinse is required after using it.
Id run the opposite direction, definitely not something I want around
Corydoras, Hoplosternum, Farlowella, Pleco
kvnbyl
Posts: 152
Joined: 16 Feb 2006, 22:01
I've donated: $411.00!
My cats species list: 48 (i:0, k:3)
My aquaria list: 7 (i:1)
My BLogs: 1 (i:0, p:13)
My Wishlist: 6
Spotted: 10
Location 1: VA
Location 2: usa
Interests: catfish, especially synos, Rainbowfish, South American cichlids

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by kvnbyl »

I use it as a net sanitizer and I purchased it from the source mentioned. I put 3 or 4 ounces in a 5 gal bucket and use it to sterilize nets. I had a problem with ich and it had spread from tank to tank before I realized I had a problem. Then I used dipped the water change hoses in it so as not to infect any more tanks and rinsed the hoses very well before using them for the next tank. I am under the impression it is used in aquariums in very small doses as a medication
Either case I think I will throw it out ( down the drain) and just use methylene blue as a net dip. I suggest you call Fishman Chemical for answers to questions. He is a nice guy and knows a lot about the stuff he sells
I believe He could tell you about the point where a medication turns into a poison
Maybe this is a good time to mention that I believe that a lot of the stuff being sold as "sanitizer ", hand or otherwise needs to be used very carefully
User avatar
bekateen
Posts: 8955
Joined: 09 Sep 2014, 17:50
I've donated: $40.00!
My articles: 4
My images: 130
My cats species list: 142 (i:102, k:39)
My aquaria list: 36 (i:13)
My BLogs: 44 (i:149, p:2653)
My Wishlist: 35
Spotted: 177
Location 1: USA, California, Stockton
Location 2: USA, California, Stockton
Contact:

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by bekateen »

Somehow, this new paper seems like it might be relevant. The supplemental document lists the types of antimicrobial being used with fish... presumably safely if used at proper dosings.

Daniel Schar, Eili Y Klein, Ramanan Laxminarayan, Marius Gilbert, & Thomas P Van Boeckel. 2020. Global trends in antimicrobial use in aquaculture. Scientific Reports 10, 2020.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7736322/
Globally aquaculture contributes 8% of animal protein intake to the human diet, and per capita consumption is increasing faster than meat and dairy consumption. Reports have documented antimicrobial use in the rapidly expanding aquaculture industry, which may contribute to the rise of antimicrobial resistance, carrying potential consequences for animal-, human-, and ecosystem-health. However, quantitative antimicrobial use across a highly diversified aquaculture industry is not well characterized. Here, we estimate global trends in antimicrobial use in aquaculture in 2017 and 2030 to help target future surveillance efforts and antimicrobial stewardship policies. We estimate antimicrobial use intensity (mg kg− 1) for six species groups though a systematic review of point prevalence surveys, which identified 146 species-specific antimicrobial use rates. We project antimicrobial use in each country by combining mean antimicrobial use coefficients per species group with OECD/FAO Agricultural Outlook and FAO FishStat production volumes. We estimate global antimicrobial consumption in 2017 at 10,259 tons (95% uncertainty interval [UI] 3163–44,727 tons), increasing 33% to 13,600 tons in 2030 (UI 4193–59,295). The Asia–Pacific region represents the largest share (93.8%) of global consumption, with China alone contributing 57.9% of global consumption in 2017. Antimicrobial consumption intensity per species group was: catfish, 157 mg kg− 1 (UI 9–2751); trout, 103 mg kg− 1 (UI 5–1951); tilapia, 59 mg kg− 1 (UI 21–169); shrimp, 46 mg kg− 1 (UI 10–224); salmon, 27 mg kg− 1 (UI 17–41) and a pooled species group, 208 mg kg− 1,(UI 70–622). All antimicrobial classes identified in the review are classified as medically important. We estimate aggregate global human, terrestrial and aquatic food animal antimicrobial use in 2030 at 236,757 tons (95% UI 145,525–421,426), of which aquaculture constitutes 5.7% but carries the highest use intensity per kilogram of biomass (164.8 mg kg− 1). This analysis calls for a substantial scale-up of surveillance capacities to monitor global trends in antimicrobial use. Current evidence, while subject to considerable uncertainties, suggests that for some species groups antimicrobial use intensity surpasses consumption levels in terrestrial animals and humans. Acknowledging the fast-growing nature of aquaculture as an important source of animal nutrition globally, our findings highlight the urgent need for enhanced antimicrobial stewardship in a high-growth industry with broad links to water and ecosystem health.
Image
Find me on YouTube and Facebook: http://youtube.com/user/Bekateen1; https://www.facebook.com/Bekateen
Buying caves from https://plecocaves.com? Plecocaves sponsor Bekateen's Fishroom. Use coupon code "bekateen" (no quotes) for 15% off your order.
User avatar
Reindas
Posts: 83
Joined: 09 Jan 2019, 14:54
I've donated: $150.00!
My cats species list: 8 (i:8, k:2)
My aquaria list: 5 (i:4)
My BLogs: 1 (i:5, p:52)
My Wishlist: 4
Spotted: 9
Location 1: Bayamón
Location 2: Puerto Rico
Interests: Catfish , Photography, Computers, Star Trek.

Re: Bad incident, take some caution

Post by Reindas »

I consider this a catastrophe.

The thought of loosing so many fish at the same time terrifies. I'm sorry for your loss. I limit my use of hand sanitizer because you absorb the alcohol and the other stuff they add to make it undrinkable. Cheap ones may have some substances that seriously harmful, not to mention using methanol instead of ethanol. We need to check what we put on our hands, what we buy is easy, but if you go to a store and they make you to use the one they have. That's a problem for us and our fishes. I wash my hands with clear unscented soap and use a brush for under the nails before I work a tank, just to be sure.

Take care of you and your fishes.
Regards.

I love my Corys! (*)
Post Reply

Return to “South American Catfishes (Callichthyidae - Corys et al)”