Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

All posts regarding the care and breeding of these catfishes from South America.
Viktor Jarikov
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Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

(1) kntrygrl4lyfe (p: 2), (2) amazonfishman, (3) necrocanis, (4) Hikarixz, who also notes: "Zungaro zungaro or simply the Jau is extremely aggressive, capable of injuring an Arapaima gigas twice it's size. The Jau was more active during the night while being sluggish during the day. This species should be kept alone from my experience. Nice fish except for the aggression towards others.", (5) Redtailrob (k: 2), who also notes: "Very aggressive towards each other even though very small so will house apart.", (6) Buddiechrist, (7) arapaimag, who also notes: "Very vicious in small tanks like a 225 gallon. But complete turnabout and very peaceful in my big tank and grew to 41" (1030 mm)."

Anyone else with experience out there?

I'had had two in a 120 gal, temporarily. One's ~14", the other is ~8". First few days were relatively peaceful but in about a week the smaller one looked like he was through a war (even though he could hide), so is now housed separately and healed up. Other tank mates are ~14" TSN-Leiaris hybrid and two RTCs, ~14" and 10". No other conflicts.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by lucretius »

This is a big ugly fish very few people ever own.

It is probably the most aggressive catfish in South America.

I have a small one and keep it on its own.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Marc van Arc »

A long time ago we received a box containing 2 specimens of Zungaro, which were about 30 and 25 cms.
Problem was that the largest specimen had started eating the smaller one, beginning from the tail.
So what you actually saw was a head with a partially visible belly and then a Zungaro in one piece; in other words: it seemed you had one fish with two heads.
The poor victim was still alive on arrival but died afterwards (we pulled it out of the other one's mouth to find that only half a fish was left).
The culprit survived and was eventually sold.
Agression,gluttony or both? Anyway, it was the first and last time I've ever seen this behaviour. Fwiw, I didn't like it at all.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Redtailrob »

Super Aggresive fish although I would assume they are less so in the Bigger environments that they are kept which i think arapaimag has already commented on.
My newest addition was terrorizing the ocupants of its tank within an hour of being introduced :-O and it was at least a 1/3 of the size of the other Inhabitants.
Swifthy relocated it to a tank on its own!
Now i never see the thing as it completely hides during the light hours.
This is typical of both my specimens.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thanks All. Rob, TBH too short of an experience to be conclusive, I'd say, but I totally support what you did. No need to risk anyone's well-being if another tank is an option. Yes, if they can hide, you will never see them in day light. Never ever. Once, I had never seen it for 6 months in one of the ponds. I put it there at 6" and, having pumped out the pond, pulled it out at 14" to my sheer amazement - I forgot/didn't know it was there.

What you perceived as harassing could have been your little Z. z. trying to hide under and behind other tank-mates is all, couldn't it have? Mine do that all the time.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Redtailrob »

Hey Victor.

I quite often sit and watch mine in the dark with just a torch for company, the wife thinks Im mad! :))
Only ever see them in the daylight if a food item go's near their holding spot & then they might shoot out, grab it & shoot back again.
The latest arrival was 100% attacking the ocupants of his new tank as I sat & watched him in the dark so he was moved.
Within an hour he had started again on the fish in that tank :-O too so was moved to solitary confinement!!
It may be that the fish where of too gently a nature to put up with his aggressive nipping, B Jurense & G.Platynema respectively - so wasnt prepaired to risk it. Although at the smaller size or in massive aquaria i can see them co- existing with RTC or maybe Vulture Cats (Calophysus Macropterus).
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Wow, such a different picture you and I see with these cats "aggression". As I said, mine 14"-er co-inhabits a 120 gal with 3 other fish just fine so far (2 months). Maybe one day we will understand why we see different behaviors.

Torch as in flashlight? Or an actual fire torch? Since you are using the present tense, I guess your better half has a thing for mad men... :)

I have no such patience. The 120 gal I mentioned has no furniture at all. They do not behave stressed.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by MatsP »

In the UK "Torch" = "Flashlight", as one of the well known "differences between UK and US english", and it makes great fun for the imaginary image of a US English person thinking about camping in tent and using a torch to see where their sleeping bag is, or some such.

Scroll down on this page:
http://www.effingpot.com/objects.shtml

--
Mats
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Well, then Rob can really kick it up a notch and beef up his home owner insurance and start using a candle or a fire torch. It may also spice up his love life too, if my hypothesis has any validity to it :)

Anyway, sorry. Back to Z.z. Anybody else with experience?
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Redtailrob »

Torch as in Flashlight!!
Wouldnt want to risk no open flames in the fish house!! :-O

Your experience Victor with your ZZ is tempting me to move one of mine to one of the larger tanks containing a 10" Jurense & a 12" Lima.
The ZZ is around 5"
Will let you know what I decide / how i get on
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

I got my first ZZ, the one that's now 14", about a 1.5 years ago at, perhaps, 3". He's spent time in a few of my tanks, 120 gal, 150 gal, etc. (in Rochester, NY) with a large number of various tank mates - walagos, oxydoras, IDSs, RTCs, TSNs, leiariuses, mystuses, smallish and small pims, giraffe cats, sorubims, small wykiis, Asian USD cats, synos, electric cats, ompoks, bullheads, channels, woodcats, calophysuses, gouramies, eels, etc. etc. etc. Some were bigger and some were smaller than him. Some were 2-3 times bigger and some were up to 2 times smaller than him. He did not cause any problems with anybody that I know of. I have only seen glimpses of him during feeding times. I never tried to observe at night (all tanks had a lot of furniture and plastic plants) much but no evidence of any fighting could be seen on any of his tank mates, 90% of which were less secretive/much more visible than he.

The first time I saw aggression was described in the OP.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Time for an update. Since the passing of the last RTCs, my 120 gal has had only a 15" TL ZZ and a 15" Leiarius-x-TSN hybrid for, oh, maybe 2-3 months. Both fish have a reputation of being aggressive. Despite the same TL, ZZ is twice thicker and heavier.

Until recently, they would have a run-in with each other, occasionally... but it was no biggie. For the last 2-3 weeks, they were gradually starting to look like they were determined to kill or be killed trying. Yesterday, for the first time a fight broke out during feeding, which occurs normally very enthusiastically but yesterday they stopped eating and started fighting, ignoring the food :-O . So that's that. It's not a pleasant situation but for now they will have to do with half a tank each - a divider was placed last night.

Don't know if I can blame ZZ since the hybrid has a bad reputation too. The hybrid was always the instigator... in the day light... but in the mornings, he was the one bearing 80% of light superficial damage, skin abrasions and torn fins, and 20% went to ZZ.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

a few really poor shots of them and their temporary abode, sorry
Attachments
I am not talking to you.  No, I am not talking to you.  No, I am.  Nope, I am...
I am not talking to you. No, I am not talking to you. No, I am. Nope, I am...
Are you saying you are not talking to me!?  Are you?  I'll show you how not to talk to me!  Arghh... if only it wasn't for this stupid piece of plastic!
Are you saying you are not talking to me!? Are you? I'll show you how not to talk to me! Arghh... if only it wasn't for this stupid piece of plastic!
amigo.JPG
Last edited by Viktor Jarikov on Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Redtailrob »

Big, Beautiful, spotty, moody beasty! :d
What's the plan for your zungaro Viktor?
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

240 gal grow-out tank 8'x2'x2', possibly alone but I may experiment with tankmates. Until he reaches 1.5'-2' TL... yeah, far from ideal, I know. Then 4500 gal, 12'x12'x5'. If he is lucky to reach 4'-5' and my Aquarium is lucky to have made enough money to continue building bigger tanks, he'll go into the 25,000 gal (25'x25'x8'). Tentative and fragile plans though... plans is too big of a word... raw thoughts, really.

How are your ZZs? any changes in housing, new observations of interactions?
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Redtailrob »

You have some amazing tanks planned Viktor & for that I salute you! :d
No change in the living requirements of my 2 specimens.
They are both still in solitary confienment :))
They are approx 5" & 7" respectively but very fat!
Moving house (fingers crossed) in the next 12 -16 months @ which point they will be upgraded to larger ponds but will probably still remain in solitary, we'll see.
I may well try them with some of my larger cats but as you know its a 2 fold risk, they have to be too big to be considered a meal but not too big too overpower their fellow occupants.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

yep.. they are so thick-built, more muscular than even an RTC, not to say any TSNs

grow notably slower though IME vs RTC/TSN, do they in yours?

good luck on the prep and the move - you'll need it. As to moving fish, keep thinking oxygen and temperature, oxygen and temperature, oxygen and temperature... if you aim to learn from my errors. I was way too focused on temperature... but then, again, mine was done in four 40-h drives from the wintery NY state to FL sub-tropics, three of them with fish.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Buddiechrist »

Hey
I got some BAD NEWS for you
Ive had these guys for SOME time. They can ONLY be kept with fish TWICE its own size otherwise they WILL ATTACK. They are EXTREMELY Territorial and cannibalistic, they only seem to tolerate same species (Cichlids, and Large Armor'd Catfish, but again if its twice its size. They are Cannibalistic so they Can't be kept together till sexual maturity not sure when they hit sexual maturity (Guessing around 24-28 inches)but it should go away but ONLY seasonal.
(edited sorry for bad grammar etc before)
Last edited by Buddiechrist on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zungaro Zungaro aggression - experience?

Post by Viktor Jarikov »

Thanks for sharing your experience. Not knowing more details and assuming you are talking about smallish Zzs, 0.5'-1.5', I think it is consistent with the vast majority of other reports here.

Just so I understand you better:
Buddiechrist wrote:They can ONLY be kept with fish TWICE its own size
Buddiechrist wrote:they only seem to tolerate same species again if its twice its size but then the bigger one WILL eat the smaller
Can you please rephrase or elaborate, if possible?

Interesting take on sexual maturity. I always thought the opposite (although these statements need to elaborated towards three possible sex pairs) but I think I should read on that aspect further.
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