New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they? SPAWNED!

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Today I found one more publication that includes a photo referring to the round-saddled specimens of iheringi-like fish as being Microglanis poecilus.
  • Mariaca Villavicencio, A. L. (2018). Aspectos de ecología trófica de la nutria gigante (Pteronura brasiliensis) y su interacción con la actividad pesquera en la estrella fluvial de Inírida, Guainía-Colombia. Tesis, Maestría en conservación y uso de biodiversidad. https://repository.javeriana.edu.co/handle/10554/34365
labeled as M. poecilus in 2018 paper MariacaVillacicencio.png
The paper is surveying fish in Colombia's "Estrella Fluvial de Inirida" area.
map Fluvial Star of Inirida.png
The photo was included as part of a pictoral key used by workers to ID the fish there, but I do not believe the photo is specifically taken of a fish captured in the region. (1) This same photo appears on FishBase as M. poecilus without remark of its origin beyond "Colombia," and (2) this paper uses other photos from non-Colombian sources, such as a photo from Galvis et al.'s 1997 paper to show Venezuelan Chaetostoma tachiraense although in reality it is C. sovichthys.

Somehow, it's a good feeling to know I'm shaking the tree of literature to find photos, but it's not as helpful when they lack clear provenance (all that is recorded on Fishbase is: 2005-01-09, Colombia, Photo credit: Miguel Landines).

Here's the fishbase photo: https://www.fishbase.se/images/species/Mipoe_u0.jpg
Mipoe_u0.jpg
Cheers, Eric

P.S., I submitted a correction to Fishbase.se, to ask them to remove this photo from M. poecilus. Their other photo is accurate. Hopefully this is corrected soon.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

bekateen wrote: 24 Feb 2021, 01:55P.S., I submitted a correction to Fishbase.se, to ask them to remove this photo from M. poecilus. Their other photo is accurate. Hopefully this is corrected soon.
Wow, FishBase is on the ball! Within hours of my submission, I received emails from two mods there, and they said they've removed the photo in question and placed an appropriate photo in its place. The change will go into effect when the website undergoes its next update. :-)

Tomorrow I'll ask them to remove the pics associated with their Microglanis secundus profile. Those are wrong too (being Batrochoglanis acanthochiroides), and I'll ask them to fix the Distribution to remove Catatumbo from M. secundus.

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Update on the growth of the very small Microglanis I bought on January 8. (Here: viewtopic.php?p=328650#p328650)

The largest fish are nearly 45mm SL and some are getting quite fat. The three I separated for this video are all among the largest (all 42-43mm SL) and are very similar in color pattern, although one has a broken brown bar below the adipose fin.
  • They all have the dark wood-grained base color.
  • They all have a subdorsal brown saddle which is solid or nearly so - I don't recall that being true in the past about all of these, so I suspect as I said elsewhere that the color is filling in as they grow.
  • They all have similar color patterns on the tail - essentially a solid but not too thick dark 3-shaped band through the approximate middle of the tail, followed by a heavily spotted (dark but not sold brown) coloration in the area posterior to the solid dark band. Visually, it looks like two bands following the contour of the tail margin, with the more-posterior band being not as solid. (very visible in the video at the 40-44 sec mark)
  • They all have the peculiar trait of a sold brown mid-body longitudinal line connecting the brown head pigmentation to the brown subdorsal saddle, as shown here: download/file.php?id=26473&mode=view. They are not the only fish in the group with this trait, but they have it very well defined. It's visible in the video at 32 seconds.
As I thought might happen, I suspect the subdorsal saddles that have breaks in them on some fish are filling in as they grow. These might end up solid brown saddles, or nearly so. Likewise, I suspect that the broken subadipose bars on several of these fish are also filling in, reaching towards the brown area above the anal fin. Only time will tell though, so patience is in order.

As as for new developments, I'll be returning to the supply source in about two weeks, and I know they have new shipments. You know I'll be trolling through that tank with a fine tooth comb. If everything they have looks like what I have now, I'll come home empty handed. But if for example, they get more of those leucistic fish (like Erlend's in the Cat-eLog), you can bet your *place-mildly-inappropriate-word-here* I'll be bringing more home with me. \:d/

Cheers, Eric

Direct link to video on YouTube: Microglanis growth update 2021-02-26

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Jools »

Thanks for posting Eric, it's certainly the case that looking at these fishes over a prolonged period will help understand them a bit more. Good fish hunting on your next fish store foray.

Cheers,

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

bekateen wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 21:20
On a whim, I did two things today.
  • Second, I picked out one of my very fat female wood-grained fish and took photos in front of a window for natural lighting, both with and without the overhead fluorecent lighting on.

This female is 50 mm SL. Note that this fish has the pale blemish in the middle of the subdorsal saddle. She also has a brown bridge connecting the subadipose and caudal saddles; I didn't recall having any fish with that feature, but going back to the first post in this thread, I see this picture (fourth picture below). Comparing the contours of the color patterns on this fat female and that fish at time of purchase, it's appears that the fat female in this post is the same fish as in that first photograph! If that's true, then her color pattern really did change with growth (no surprise I suppose, but it's cool to observe)... I need to go back and look at the other specimens. And wow, what a difference food makes! :-D

One other thing about her is that beside the rotund belly, which would indicate female, her genital area surrounding the genital papilla is swollen like a balloon (circled in fifth photo below), in the same way that I observed on my Panaqolus species - there's a visible bump of about 4mm diameter and 1mm height around the genital papilla. I haven't checked the males yet, but I doubt they have that swelling.

Also, keep in mind that these woodgrained fish are my small fish. All the woodgrained fish are about the same size. The yellow-bodied fish were as large as 65mm when I purchased them. I don't know if they've grown since, but maybe? Regarding the possibility that the yellow fish are males and these woodgrained fish are all females, I have woodgrained fish that are thin. That in itself doesn't say much, so I'm waiting to see if any yellow fish plump out like this. So far, one or two of the larger yellow fish are slightly rounded more than others, but none so rotund as these little fish. So the sex dimorphism vs two species is not fully settled yet in my mind.
Turns out, I think I was wrong about this big fat female matching the skinny fish from the day one photographs. Today I randomly pulled out another fat fish and I took a picture, only to discover that it is a much better match for the color pattern of the skinny fish photographed on day one. See for yourself. This female is 55-56mm SL today, meaning the fat females have added another ~5mm since the last photo session on December 18th (about 78 days ago).
Points of comparison
Points of comparison
Today's picture (I think the brigher yellow body is due to lighting; other fish photo'd in sunlight)
Today's picture (I think the brigher yellow body is due to lighting; other fish photo'd in sunlight)
From https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=327041#p327041
From https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=327041#p327041
https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=328327#p328327
https://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=328327#p328327
They are so big and fat now, I'm just wondering what they're waiting on to spawn. I'll have to start playing with their lighting and water parameters.

Finally, here also is one of the big males. He's got the basic yellow body with postero-ventral edges to his dorsal saddle, but his body is not yellow. It's essentially antique bronze color - no wood grain, no dark spotting, as I see in the mix of fat females. He's still 65mm SL. Hasn't grown at all.
Male
Male
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by fishguy1978 »

PXL_20210307_172923684~2.jpg
Just saying hi
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Great cave there!
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

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bekateen wrote: 08 Mar 2021, 02:32 Great cave there!
This is the best cave because it faces a viewing pain. I actually get to see a fish I have owned for a year but always hides.
Did you say “CATFISH!?” I’m in.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Back from "Microglanis-R-Us" b-) . They had a lot (at least 50, probably close to 100) of bumblebees today, but unfortunately all the fish looked like what I already have. Even so, I picked up a select few (14) based on specific characteristics, although I confess a couple were accidental catches and I probably should have put them back:
  1. I was REALLY hoping for the leucistic fish or something resembling , but none were available.
  2. I found 4-5 more specimens which shared that odd trait of an intact brown bridge which splits the pale nuchal band in half mid-sagittally.
  3. I picked up a few fish with the feature of the subdorsal saddle broken along its posterior margin with a pale spot, which is then split in a postero-ventral diagonal line; one of these is large, well over 50 mm SL.
  4. I picked up one or two very large specimens of the classic pale yellow colored "iheringi" pattern, because of their large size (over 60mm SL). I believe all of my current fish with this color pattern are big males. Maybe it's sexually dimorphic trait, but I bought more wild-caught fish of the same size, hoping they might be underfed females with the same bright yellow color pattern.
  5. I picked up a few thin long wood-grained specimens, all over 50mm SL. I'm hoping these will be males, but so far all of my larger wood-grained fish are (I believe) females. Maybe these are just thin females also - time will tell.
  6. I picked up about 4 very small fish (less than or equal to 25mm SL). These are mostly dark woodgrain colored, but some had the broken subdorsal saddles, like a few from my previous purchase of fish. If these small fish are a different species, I wanted to add to that group.
Of all these groups, #1 and #2 are my favs of today's take.

I just put them into QT, a heated 5-gal bucket with a sponge filter. Sadly, all of these fish are heavily infested with ich or something similar, so they're going to get some serious QT meds (Paraguard initially, Nox ich if needed, followed by Prazipro) before I add them in with the other groups. I've had zero deaths among the first 44 specimens I purchased, so I'm hoping these will do well in QT and recover fully with no deaths.

In total, I'm up to 58 bumblebees. If the variation in body size (~65mm SL, ~55mm SL, or <40mm SL), in body base color (yellow, antique bronze, dark with spots, or wood-grained), in the shape, size and features of the subdorsal saddle and the sub-adipose bands, or in the presence/absence of the peculiar mid-sagittal bridge across the pale nuchal band are significant species traits, I suspect I have 4 species (or more) in this group. Time will tell.

Cheers, Eric

Here's a very short video of them as soon as I got them home, before QT:
Direct link to video on YouTube: 14 more Microglanis bumblebee catfishes
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Jools »

Cool! That big high-contrast one looks superb. Look forward, optimistally, to a pic!

Cheers,



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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Shane »

Eric,
Free online is... Illustrated Catalog of Fish in the “Aguaro-Guariquito” National Park

Antonio Machado-Allison, Roberto de la Fuente e Ivan Mikolji

It is on Mikolji's site for free. Huge resource for any aquarist. Page 411 shows "M. iheringi" from this drainage in the southern llanos.

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Thanks, Jools and Shane!

Jools, I've got a couple of pic-worthy in this group, if they recover from the disease they have, which appears to be ich. Will keep updating.

Shane, thanks for the reference. This is a great picture and based on what I've seen is probably the closest photo to real iheringi. I think I have a few of my smaller fish which come very close to this image, although not exactly the same (here's a screen grab from my 2/26 YouTube video).
From my 2/26 YouTube video
From my 2/26 YouTube video
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by MarcW »

Looking good Eric, lets hope the owner of that store doesn't keep thinking, these Microglanis are top sellers, I'd better get more in, or you may need to start filling sinks, and baths to keep them in! :))
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by fishguy1978 »

bekateen wrote: 09 Mar 2021, 02:05 In total, I'm up to 58 bumblebees.
And I thought a group of 5-6 would be good :))
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

MarcW wrote: 09 Mar 2021, 15:56Looking good Eric, lets hope the owner of that store doesn't keep thinking, these Microglanis are top sellers, I'd better get more in, or you may need to start filling sinks, and baths to keep them in! :))
Thanks Marc. Indeed, I believe the shop knows I'm a nutjob. I told him there was really nothing new in the group, and that I'll hold off on more until something different arrrives. Of course, that could drive his orders two opposite directions. ;-)
fishguy1978 wrote: 09 Mar 2021, 17:37And I thought a group of 5-6 would be good :))
Let's hope I have a pair in my combined group. ;-) =))

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Jools »

58? That's a hive!

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Jools wrote: 09 Mar 2021, 19:1858? That's a hive!
Jools
🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝Yeah! A community at the least, practically an ecosystem! :))

Right now the first 18 (the largest fish) are in one 10 gal tank, the second 26 (the really small fish) are in another 10 gal tank, and the latest 14 are in a 5 gal bucket for QT. As everyone grows, that's going to be unsustainable. Also, my ultimate plan is to break them out of their "purchase groups" and sort them into phenotypes, so that similar fish are together in one tank, regardless of size or time with me. That's to avoid any possibility that if they are different spp, I will reduce chances for hybridization (IF spawning ever occurs).

In short, I'll need as many tanks as I have potential species. Of course, if I inadvertently sort sexually dimorphic males from females, that will suck. #-O

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

@Shane, interesting development from that last reference you gave me. I contacted the author and asked permission to post the photo. When I drew his attention to the page, he immediately recognized that the photo shown was not correct and he sent me the right photo, with permission to share. Here it is, from the Rio Caura.
Rio Caura. Photo, Antonio Machado-Allison &amp; Barry Chernoff
Rio Caura. Photo, Antonio Machado-Allison & Barry Chernoff
With any dorsal view photo, it's difficult to get a good perspective of the subdorsal saddle, but some details are visible in the photo:
Resizer_16153923485520~2.png
  • the anterior edge is roughly vertical, and the posterior edge is angled, not vertical. (Red)
  • there is a pale irregular spot in the middle of the saddle. (Blue)
  • there is a dark line crossing through both the pale spot and the posterior edge of the saddle. (Green)
But the first trait that caught my eye was the intact dark bridge dividing the pale nuchal band mid-sagittally. I confess I'm fixated on that trait because so few of my fish have it, and I've never seen it mentioned in descriptions, but at this time I cannot attribute that feature to only one of the "types" (species?) in my group of fishes. So maybe that seemingly random presence among dark- and light-bodied specimens indicates this is merely phenotypic variation.

Next Fall, when my incoming grad student will begin the genetic studies, can't get here soon enough. :-SS

Cheers, Eric
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by fishguy1978 »

Now I am curious what the sides of mine look like. I also have access to another that is the size of my thumb. I will post pic's first chance I get.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by fishguy1978 »

Here is my one M. sp.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

It looks great!
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by fishguy1978 »

Thanks, I enjoyed watching your videos of all those cats en masse. Look forward to the updates.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by OregonOutdoorsChris »

That video is really interesting!

I have custom red lights (660nm LEDs) on my tank for nocturnal viewing, but still the single Microglanis I have is absolutely photophobic. I can sometimes catch a brief glimpse of it diving for cover only if I sneak up on the tank and use a flashlight after ALL the lights in the tank and room are out. I might see the fish once every 6 months if I'm lucky.

But here in your video, with them in a large group, they seem to be acting a lot more like perugiae. Still nocturnal, but that's infinitely more outgoing than I'd ever expect given my experience so far. It seems that large groups definitely help!
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Did a check on the fish today. Biggest fish was pushing 70mm SL. Still a bit shocked they haven't spawned yet.
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Screenshot_20210521-205057_Photos~2.jpg
20210521_170358.jpg
20210521_170806.jpg
20210521_170819.jpg
20210521_170859.jpg
20210521_170953.jpg
20210521_171023.jpg
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Jools »

They look in top condition. How do you know they've not spawned?

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

I suppose they could have, but if they did, they've eaten every last fry and egg. Perhaps to that end, a few weeks ago I looked in the tank of the smaller fish and I saw what I believed to be an egg on a spawning mop. I looked again and still saw it. I looked a third time with a flashlight, err, torch, and still saw it. I ran to get my phone and when I returned it was gone. This occurred in daytime, so I doubt any fish swam out to eat it in less than a minute. But I tore that tank apart and never found any egg. Perhaps I mistook a fragment of decaying leaf (with its transparency) for the egg. There are always leaf fragments stuck in the mop and in the past I have mistaken them momentarily for eggs, but upon inspection could see they were not. The bigger mystery is how could I have looked at this with a torch and still mistaken it for an egg?

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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by fishguy1978 »

bekateen wrote: 22 May 2021, 04:48 Did a check on the fish today. Biggest fish was pushing 70mm SL. Still a bit shocked they haven't spawned yet.
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by bekateen »

Today I found what I thought was an egg on a spawning mop. The object looked like an egg, was about the size of an egg (although bigger than what I'd expect from such small fish) and it was attached to the spawning mop like an egg might be. But I discovered the object was essentially a hollow bubble of some hard outer material, and when I released it from the mop, it floated. Perhaps it is some odd contaminant from a recent meal of frozen blood worms? (I had just fed a frozen meal to the fish 30 minutes before). Anyway, it's not a Microglanis egg :-(

Also, I wanted to give better (although not more in focus, since these fish don't stop moving) views of my fish to a few people, so I'll upload them here for easy access.

Cheers, Eric
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Egg-like object
Egg-like object
Egg-like object another view
Egg-like object another view
type 1 45mm SL
type 1 45mm SL
type 1 45mm SL_same fish
type 1 45mm SL_same fish
type 2 45-50mm SL
type 2 45-50mm SL
type 3 45-50mm SL
type 3 45-50mm SL
type 4 45-50mm SL
type 4 45-50mm SL
type 4 45-50mm SL_same fish
type 4 45-50mm SL_same fish
type 5 50mm SL
type 5 50mm SL
type 6 55mm SL
type 6 55mm SL
type 6 55mm SL_same fish
type 6 55mm SL_same fish
type 7 60mm SL
type 7 60mm SL
type 8 70mm SL
type 8 70mm SL
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Re: New group of 6 Microglanis iheringi... or are they?

Post by Woodh »

Did you ever solve the egg mystery?
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