The hybrid Syno thread

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Carp37 »

sorry- my mistake- I was looking at the unidentified GENUINE species :oops:

Mats if you want to delete my posts to clean up the thread feel free
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Haavard Stoere »

This is a very interesting subject :thumbsup:

Although I currently don`t keep synos I am a great fan of the genus and hope to acquire a genuine species some time in the future.

A few months ago I came across these fish at my LFS. They were imported from Checkia.
All 11 fish were around 7-8cm tl. They were labelled S. petricola and were identified as hybrids by the good people of PlanetCatfish. The pictures may be used for any educational purpose on PC. What features makes these obvious hybrids? Which species has been involved in producing this hybrid?

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Richard B »

Thanks for posting Haavard - those look like a variety of hybrid 2 - they look quite small in size
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Birger »

What features makes these obvious hybrids? Which species has been involved in producing this hybrid?
This fish has features from both S.ocellifer and a rift syno either S.grandiops or mutipunctata.

The spotting and shape of the adipose fin are all S.ocellifer but the shape and the way it holds itself (fins erect) and the tell tale black stripes on the upper and lower lobes come from the other.
It is probably an active fish as well more like a rift cat would be.(conjecture)
To me it looks healthy with no obvious deformaties that scream hybrid.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Richard B »

Although i feel this is still being debated as genuine or hybrid, this is IMHO a hybrid based on
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IMGP0542.JPG (87.57 KiB) Viewed 25639 times
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Richard B »

Birger wrote:
What features makes these obvious hybrids? Which species has been involved in producing this hybrid?
This fish has features from both S.ocellifer and a rift syno either S.grandiops or mutipunctata.

The spotting and shape of the adipose fin are all S.ocellifer but the shape and the way it holds itself (fins erect) and the tell tale black stripes on the upper and lower lobes come from the other.
It is probably an active fish as well more like a rift cat would be.(conjecture)
To me it looks healthy with no obvious deformaties that scream hybrid.
Birger
If this is hybrid 2 i am informed it is petricola x nigrita - this is based on speaking with people who have produced hybrid fish, although not necessarily this type of hybrid

The obvious deformities seen previously seem to be a thing of the past & hybrid types now look strong healthy fish
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Timberwolf »

MatsP wrote:I haven't added any new hybrid species yet. It will have whatever is the "next number" when I get around to doing that.

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Calling her sp_hybrid (8) is my mistake, based on what I misunderstood from conversations with Mats in an earlier thread. My appologies to all.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Richard B »

Timberwolf wrote:
MatsP wrote:I haven't added any new hybrid species yet. It will have whatever is the "next number" when I get around to doing that. --Mats
Calling her sp_hybrid (8) is my mistake, based on what I misunderstood from conversations with Mats in an earlier thread. My appologies to all.

Sam
Hey no worries at all - there are getting to be so many hybrids IME (& perhaps only genetic data will confirm this) that we'll probably end up with dozens of em :(

As an example - there are pics of hybrid 2 in this thread (from me & Haavard) & the cat-e-log page - all are hybrids but slightly different from each other - they are lumped together under the hybrid 2 banner as they are all similar but they could be different hybrid versions & maybe each have their own number (i'd prefer not to though)
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by sidguppy »

for those who thought my rants against the hybrids were on the strong side, well with this
The obvious deformities seen previously seem to be a thing of the past & hybrid types now look strong healthy fish
all my worst predictions have come true

already there are LFSses that have ONLY hybrid Syno's for sale and the prices go up as well


we are ALL being shafted by a bunch of mad doctors and this is done WITH the knowing and cooperation of the wholesalers.
most LFs owners are more into cichlids or into the average tropical community fish, but a spotted African catfish of the Syno genus is just that.
you wouldn't want to know the number of LFS owners that think Synodontis is the ONLY catfish from Africa, really

pretty soon the hybrids have the prices of the original species and we, the ones that like to keep REAL catfishes instead of manmade bogus ones, we will be relicts from the past
blown away by unscrupulous entrepeneurs that have destroyed our hobby

I'll tell you what's next: L numbers and Corydoras

already there are quite a few fake Zebra pleco's; I also have seen -maybe 10 years ago! - a list of all the Corydoras hybrids available in former Eastern Europe

UNLESS we as a fishkeepers community get vocal on this, spread our knowledge allo over and boycott the whole damn thing; it'll get worse

that's capitalism for you

and if you think I'm just a ranting old geezer with a pessimistic view, well.....

once there was a small group of men that predicted it would go rong with planet earth and rampant capitalism if we wouldn't wake up from our stupor get off our lazy asses and put the breaks on the overpopulation, pollution, wars and unregulated capitalism rape of earth. everybody ignored them.
that was in 1970......I don't have to tell you were we are now, do I?

the hybrid issue is EXACTLY like that, albeit on a smaller scale. greed, rampant capitalism, a total lack of ethics, greed, more greed and the "I can get away with this" attitude of wholesalers and breeders have made this possible.
ignorance, lazyness, "political correctness" and the reluctant attitude to avoid any stance on this from our parts are all involved as well; we as a catfish community should get vocal on this.

the time of staying on the sidelines and waiting it out till the 'disease has run it's course' , waiting with our heads in the sand till it blows over has long gone.
especially since WE should know BETTER. the average fishkeeper who doesn't know one end of a catfish from the other isn't to blame

it smells like our selfishness in keeping our treasured conections and privileges to wholesalers and importers are obviously so much treasured that any criticism on their part of the Hybrid Scam must be avoided at all parts....wich I find repulsive.
yes, repulsive.
if without ethics and without the will to stand up and take protest against a very large cheating scam then what are we?
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Richard B »

Sid - strong words indeed but i personally agree.

Hence this thread to educate as to what the hybrids look like.

Yesterday i went through a wholesale list - (not czech either) & the scores were sadly ...
hybrid 13
genuine 11
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Carp37 »

I also agree with Sid, in fact I'll go one further- I absolutely loathe and detest the profusion of selectively bred (non-hybrid) varities of fish that abound in the hobby today. I remember as a teenager marvelling at the beauty of discus, but the current trend for pigeon-blood and other monstrous varieities has me agape- to me they're not only "not real" fish, they're downright ugly, and it has me aghast that I seem to be in a minority of one. I even prefer wild-coloured goldfish and carp, although I'll concede that people want to see fish in their ponds so there's some sense to having brighter coloured varieties in this case.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Jools »

You know Sid, I don't think I agree with you. I think hybrids are OK especially if they are sold as such and they key point is that they are not deformed. But other than that then fine. Why? Well, exactly how many wild caught Synodontis enter the trade and die without passing on their genes? Close on 100%. How many species overall are still natural in your average LFS? Very few.

If we can remove the usual counter culture preamble, then we need to focus on the ethics, and the ethics of all fishkeepers and not just us specialists sitting in our ivory towers. Think about the entire fish buying public, not just people that can tell 40+ more species of Synodontis apart.

If every Syno in every chain store fish department is a hybrid then I, for one, am happy as they will keep those fishkeepers content and not impact wild stocks. There is also very little risk of these hybrids being released back into nature.

As to pushing up prices, I have seen zero evidence of this in the UK (and I was in a good LFS recently which had 4 or 5 different hybrids for sale). Is that happening with you?

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Carp37 »

Jools wrote:If every Syno in every chain store fish department is a hybrid then I, for one, am happy as they will keep those fishkeepers content and not impact wild stocks. There is also very little risk of these hybrids being released back into nature.
Hi Jools-
but why can't breeders raise captive bred true species? I much prefer buying tank-raised fish to wild fish, but would much prefer these to be true species. It's been suggested that hybrids have better survival rates than true species, but I don't know if it's ever been proven (or even properly tested).
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Jools »

Actually, they do as well - however, outside "bread and butter sales", they don't sell as well as they are about the same price but not wild caught. All that said, I reckon there will be an economics factor in it too which determines which species are used. You might need to use a more prolific, duller species with a less prolific, more attractive species to get the most pretty fishes.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Oliver D. »

Hi,
Jools wrote:I think hybrids are OK especially if they are sold as such
that´s the problem. Mostly the hybrids will sold as rare species. The wholesalers recieve the fishes with wrong name... also the seller and the customer...
The result is a new user for planetcatfish.com with one or two postings in "What is my catfish?".

Sold as Synodontis njassae:
Image
Image
Image

An other one:
Image
Image

Sold as Synodontis zebrinus and Synodontis ornatipinnis:
Image
Image
Image

Youngsters sold as Synodontis robertsi:
Image
Image

All fishes created in Czech Republic. The last one come from Czech to the wholesaler in the Netherlands and finaly was sold in Austria, Vienna.

That´s fraud and make me angry!
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by racoll »

Jools wrote:If every Syno in every chain store fish department is a hybrid then I, for one, am happy as they will keep those fishkeepers content and not impact wild stocks.
I think there is a lot of value in a sustainable wild fish trade. It places a value on managing fish stocks, and keeping the local ecosystems intact.

I would rather a Congolese fisherman had my money for a quality wild caught specimen, than a lab-created hybrid.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by MatsP »

racoll wrote:I think there is a lot of value in a sustainable wild fish trade. It places a value on managing fish stocks, and keeping the local ecosystems intact.

I would rather a Congolese fisherman had my money for a quality wild caught specimen, than a lab-created hybrid.
Without taking anything away from Jools argument, I wholeheartedly agree with this.

After speaking with for example Shane Linder and Mark Sabaj on the subject of "is ornamental trade a problem for the fish in their native rivers", and the opinion is pretty clearly that with a few exceptions, the fish are much more threatened by other factors than ornamental trade.

To some extent, I actually prefer to get wild-caught fish over tank-bred fish - it gives the local population SOME income, which may stop them from getting money by digging for gold or chopping down trees to make some small amounts of money. It's not a guarantee, but it is certainly better than giving the money to a dishonest breeder in Eastern Europe (or elsewhere).

What I absolutely agree with is that selling Hybrids as valid species is definitely fraud and morally wrong. There may well be an argument for selling hybrids under correct labels - but we do not see that very often...

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by racoll »

Sidguppy wrote:I'll tell you what's next: L numbers and Corydoras
I think if we don't nip this in the bud now, then there will be no end to the mass produced hybrid crap that will appear in the shops.

Unfortunately, as Jools points out, the general fish buying public don't know or care. They just want the cheapest, most garish coloured fish as possible.

Despite spending many times more money per head than your "average" fishkeeper, they outnumber the serious hobbyists 100-1.

The market will just shift to whatever is more eye catching at the lowest prices, and the shops selling quality stock will be fewer and further between!

I can only see if being bad for the hobby long term as more and more people will be keeping fishes, not because they are interested in natural history, but for decoration.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Bas Pels »

Jools wrote:You know Sid, I don't think I agree with you. I think hybrids are OK especially if they are sold as such and they key point is that they are not deformed. But other than that then fine. Why? Well, exactly how many wild caught Synodontis enter the trade and die without passing on their genes? Close on 100%. How many species overall are still natural in your average LFS? Very few.

If we can remove the usual counter culture preamble, then we need to focus on the ethics, and the ethics of all fishkeepers and not just us specialists sitting in our ivory towers. Think about the entire fish buying public, not just people that can tell 40+ more species of Synodontis apart.

If every Syno in every chain store fish department is a hybrid then I, for one, am happy as they will keep those fishkeepers content and not impact wild stocks. There is also very little risk of these hybrids being released back into nature.

As to pushing up prices, I have seen zero evidence of this in the UK (and I was in a good LFS recently which had 4 or 5 different hybrids for sale). Is that happening with you?

Jools
I can see what you are saying, I can't say I really agree, but I do miss 1 thing.

Nature dislikes hybrids - therefore, with many species it is not easy to produce hybrids unless weird measurements are taken.

In relation to Synodontis I'm thinkiing of hormone injections, and manually bring the fishes to releasing eggs and sperm. This is a treatment not many fish survive

I think, apart from all dislike I have for hybrids, that this aspect - assuming I'm right, in this case I'd like to be wrong - should not be ignored
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Jools »

How many of you have actually been in an "entry level" fish dept of a chain store recently? Given all the arguments you've put forward, 90% of the fish for sale there would fall foul of one of the points you mention. What makes Synodontis special?

The other point is Rupert's point on sustainable harvesting of wild caught fish for the trade. That's fine, but we are talking about Africa here, not South America or India or suchlike. The rules are very different. Personally, I think this is the key to controlling or eradicating hybrids, if exports were as frequent and as varied as in their hayday, then why would hybrids have the commercial edge?

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Shane »

Lots of good points both for and against being made here. Jools' point that hybrids lessen the impact on wild populations is true, and I think a positive point in their favor. On the other hand, look how much success with the captive spawning of catfishes hobbyists have had in the last 20 years. More species (and families) have been bred in the last 20 years than the entire history of the hobby 1890-1990. Seegers lists captive spawning for 10 species, and I know of at least one more. Nearly all of these have been in the last 10 years. If the pleco craze had not caught on a resulted in a deluge of wild caught new species would there be so many hobbyists that had spawned 10, 20, or even over 100 spp?
I think if we don't nip this in the bud now, then there will be no end to the mass produced hybrid crap that will appear in the shops.
Sadly, I think we are well down that road.
Mostly the hybrids will sold as rare species.
Too true. Even more sad is that some will be described as valid species. Take a look at S. galinae and S. helenae. Granted these two are pretty easy to recognize as hybrids, but crosses described in the future may not be.
that's capitalism for you
Sid, I love your conviction but you have to see the irony that while you deplore Capitalism you are calling on a Capitalistic solution: a boycott. Also, lets not forget that it is no accident that these hybrids originated under Communist governments because the free flow of goods and services (in this case fishes) was not allowed.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by racoll »

Jools wrote:How many of you have actually been in an "entry level" fish dept of a chain store recently? Given all the arguments you've put forward, 90% of the fish for sale there would fall foul of one of the points you mention.
You're absolutely right Jools, but that doesn't make it okay.

If I'm helping a beginner, the last fishes I recommend are those mass produced bread and butter ones, which are specifically sold to beginners in those shops!

The only way I can guarantee quality live stock is by going wild caught! The mass produced fishes such as guppies, neons and dwarf gouramis are simply awful. Aesthetics aside, they are so weak and inbred I would consider them to be actually quite difficult to keep for any length of time.

A case in point number one - I'm currently breeding Danio for my research, and I spawned Danio albolineatus (aquarium strain) at the same time as some wild caught Danio sp. aff. kyathit. The difference in growth and survival rate between the two groups was staggering.

Case in point number two - In my office nano tank, I am successfully keeping both wild caught Boraras maculatus and Otocinclus cf. vittatus, both regarded by most as delicate - they are thriving. I also added a small number of mass produced, and generally regarded as hardy, sparkling gouramis (Trichopsis pumila) - they didn't last one week.

Anyway, my point being, that how are newcomers to the hobby supposed to be successful and progress, unless there is a monumental change in how the market operates?

I don't think hybrids are a solution to this.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by MatsP »

I can't count the number of guppies that we've bought (usually on my wife's insistence) [well, if I had saved them all in a bag in the freezer, I probably could count them - they aren't THAT many]. They never survive, and I've stopped buying them altogether.

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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Haavard Stoere »

I can`t see that the production of hybrids has any relevance to the conservation and management of the Afrikan biotopes. For serious catfish keepers the hybrid's are a nuisance because we have trouble finding the species we wan`t. The solution is of course to get wild caught specimens and breed and share them amongst ourselves. This will have no impact what so ever on wild populations. There are plenty of synos for our needs (although they are a pain to acquire). If habitats are managed badly or completely destroyed our serious breeding efforts will not make any difference for wild populations.

The world is on fire, but not because of the Eastern European fish farming.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Bas Pels »

I think it's a pity nobody went into my point of the well being (as far as I know they die) of synodontus parents used to hybridize

But than, it turned out to be the last posting on page 1 8)
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by andywoolloo »

Bas said:
In relation to Synodontis I'm thinkiing of hormone injections, and manually bring the fishes to releasing eggs and sperm. This is a treatment not many fish survive

I think, apart from all dislike I have for hybrids, that this aspect - assuming I'm right, in this case I'd like to be wrong - should not be ignored

I agree totally, to me this is the most horrific, well one of the worst parts of it all. I have seen them doing this on tele to other types of fish and it looks horrifically painful and like they probably die from being squished after. Is this what they do to get all hybrid synos? And do they all die after?

Are they trying to find a new colour or something? What is wrong with just the natural synos to the hybridizers?
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by sidguppy »

Jools' point that hybrids lessen the impact on wild populations is true, and I think a positive point in their favor.
this is a non argument and it's also wrong.

what WOULD lessen the impact on wild populations is the captive breeding of the real species.
with or without hormones. UNMIXED.

now the demand for real species will stay, because many fishkeepers are aware of the hybrid issue and want true species, not Eastern European filth.

second; these hybrids aren't created to lessen any impact on wild poulations, but to earn money and also-as we have seen in this section when a hybrid creater joined in- out of 'boredom'.


third: the impact on wild populations aren't caused by our hobby, but by habitat destruction.
causes; overpopulation, deforestation, damming, pollution, war, overfishing and poaching.
frankly said: Africa is a mess. regardless of whó has caused it; today it's a mess.

even if we decide to stick to hybrid keeping and forego the keeping of real syno's; the rate of extinction of wild African fish qon't slowdown one tiny bit.

it's not us or our demand wich eventually will cause the extenction of -say for example- Synodontis flavitaeniatus or synodontis alberti etc.

it's gonna be massive breeding of people, wars, famine, habitat destruction and global warming and it's effect on the growing deserts in Africa that will do these fishes in.


i don't like the idea of breeding fish by sticking needles in em; but as long as we keep them unmixed I don't have too many objections
especially if that fish is a threathened species!
it's the wanton mixing that iDO object to. a LOT.

because if you breed fish with needles and hormones, you CAN also breed them true.
the fact that those people don't bother tells me much and 1 thing above all: they have no ethics. no morals.
they could do it right, but they won't. out of boredom or greed. but it's there.

and that hasn''t got anything to do with lessening any impact on anything whatsoever.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Carp37 »

sidguppy wrote:if you breed fish with needles and hormones, you CAN also breed them true.
the fact that those people don't bother tells me much and 1 thing above all: they have no ethics. no morals.
they could do it right, but they won't. out of boredom or greed. but it's there.

and that hasn''t got anything to do with lessening any impact on anything whatsoever.
I have to agree with this- I've not seen any info for over a year on loaches, but there was a Russian aquarist getting lots of publicity for producing hybrid loaches recently, because he thought they'd be worth more than producing true species.
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by Shane »

what WOULD lessen the impact on wild populations is the captive breeding of the real species.
You are correct that hybrids were certainly not created with any thought of lessening man's impact on wild populations. That said, it is a positive side effect even if it was unintended.

What would really lessen impact would be expanded wild collecting. This would bring cash to local people and give them a reason to protect their environment. This is the only form of conservation I have seen to work in the undeveloped world. Uganda's gorillas and their small habitat are now protected, and actually guarded, because they bring in more money from first world tourists (US $400 a day just for a permit to see them) than they would as meat for the stew pot. Is the protection of these animals not a good thing because the government uses it as a cash cow? I do not think so. If a local village is making a living exporting live tropical fishes they will fight to protect that income. The converse side is that of course one could argue that buying captive bred fishes actually has a long term negative impact on their wild kin.

Sadly, I do not know of any organization out there that is helping local peoples to develop their ornamental fish resources.
Africa is a mess. regardless of whó has caused it; today it's a mess.
Well, I guess that depends on how you define mess. As you know I have been in Africa for going on four years now and myself and my family are rather happy here. My wife and I have now been living in the 3rd world for over ten years now. Every time we visit the developed world we are more disappointed by "progress."

I am suprised that there has been no reaction to the fact that at least two of these hybrids have been scientifically described!
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Re: The hybrid Syno thread

Post by MatsP »

Shane wrote:Sadly, I do not know of any organization out there that is helping local peoples to develop their ornamental fish resources.
Like a "Fairtrade fish" project? I'm sure it's not easy to do that, but it's certainly something in the right direction.

And as I've said before, capture for the ornamental trade is by far the least problem for most of the fish we keep in our tanks - making them valuable to the local population is definitely a good thing.

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