Help please! New cat constant spinning?

[Narelle]

Hello, I need help with one of my two newly acquired

Pseudomystus siamensis

.

I got the cats this past Thursday, they spent two nights in a 5g bucket with an airstone and refreshed water as necessary (they arrived sooner than expected and I hadn't had the chance to get their tank ready yet), then Sunday they were moved to a newly set up, thoroughly disinfected (and well rinsed/scrubbed) 20gH whose filter was seeded with media from an existing tank.

Both cats were fine in the buckets and fine Sunday, the day they were added to the 20g. I did notice on Sunday that the one that is having problems, in particular, seemed to be spending a lot of time around the heater, but it was late when I noticed that and I thought they would be fine for the night.

Monday I woke up deathly ill myself, so unable to do much of anything to help, and found the cat in question swimming around the tank erratically with her whole body spinning, doing barrel rolls. I added an IAL but wasn't able to do much being ill. I did notice Monday that the other cat a couple of times went after her and they would do the normal rapid rings around each other for a minute, then part ways and the afflicted cat would resume her spins.

This morning her swimming seems more irregular and her spinning seems to be going faster. She does occasionally bump her nose into things, but turns and keeps spinning in another direction.

1. Water parameters NOTE: I was very sick all day yesterday when the spinning started and wasn't able to test the water. However, it was brand new clean water in a newly set up QT tank seeded with good filter media. The water should have been clean. I do tend to have a high pH out of the tap, but I've successfully raised this species of cat in my tap water in the past and drip acclimated them, so I did not expect problems. I will water test today and edit in parameters when I have them.
a) Temperature range: approx 76-78? Need to check again. EDIT: temp got up closer to 7.8 -8, so I bumped the heater down a bit.
b) pH: 8.2 High for this species, I know.
c) GH: I do not have a GH test kit currently.
d) KH: 6
e)Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, levels: 0ppm+ (may have had a slight greenish tint, but no where near 0.25ppm), 0ppm, about 2.5ppm
f) Water change frequency: None yet, just set the tank up.

2. Tank set up
a) Size: 20gH
b) Substrate: Barebottom
c) Filtration: HOB rated for 20g tank
d) Furnishings: PVC pieces
e) Other tank mates: Just the two Pseudomystus siamensis in the tank, intended to be a QT
f) How long has it been set-up: 2 days
g) When was the last new fish added: 2 days ago when I set it up
h) Foods used and frequency: Fed for the first time in this tank last night for the benefit of the healthy cat; fed them New Era Catfish pellets

3. Symptoms / Problem description
One of my two new Pseudomystus siamensis is spinning. She swims forward and her whole body rolls, in barrel rolls. She has no other outward signs of disease or stress. The other new P. siamensis acquired and added at the same time is showing no signs of disease, stress, or spinning.
Looking closely at the afflicted cat while she spins, her fins are all spread, not clamped, and her dorsal and pectoral fins are angled in such a way that causes her to spin, as she would angle them if she wanted to intentionally spin.

4. Action taken (if any)
Added one IAL leaf, couldn't find any possible diseases that fit and was too sick to perform a water change, so it was the only thing I thought might help that I was able to do.

5. Medications used (if any)
None.

I will try to get pictures and/or video when I get my water parameters. Has anyone seen anything like this before? I'm completely lost, as she doesn't seem sick aside from the spinning.

EDIT: I should also note that these are both juveniles, 8 cm TL on the healthy one and 9cm TL on the spinning one. I do have plenty of pictures of the fish before they were added to the 20g. Here's a couple: [X] [X] [X] The cat having issues is the larger of the two. As you can see here, she was fine when she went in the tank.

EDIT2: Couldn't get any clear pictures because she was at the back of the tank and I've got it unlit since they're nocturnal cats. I'll try again later. Here's a video though. Her spinning has slowed down and she's staying in the same general area - before she was moving all around the tank. I'm about to start a water test, I'll get those parameters up when I have them.

(Click the image to go to the video, I uploaded to photobucket so I can't imbed.)

[dw1305]

Hi all,
Sorry to hear about your fish, it may not be a water quality issue, but I'd definitely change some more water.

Because the tank is new and clean, and doesn't have a substrate etc. you are reliant on the seeded filter media for biological filtration. If you have some floating plants? and an air powered filter sponge? I would add them as well.

cheers Darrel

[Narelle]

Hi Darrel, thanks for the reply.

I didn't have a sponge filter available, but I added a strong air stone for now. I might be able to throw one together in a bit with extra parts I have laying around. I also added a bit of water lettuce, but I didn't have much of that either. If you think it would help I could add some duckweed, but I am hesitant to intentionally introduce any to another of my tanks as it's been a menace. But my fish does matter more to me, so I will if I need to.

I'll get water together for a water change and get one done. How much would you suggest I change? I'm a bit wary of changing too much with the IAL in there, as it has significantly reduced my KH.

Since you posted before I got the test results up, here's what they were:
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0+ (might have had a greenish tint, but no where near 0.25)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: about 2.5
KH: 6

[Shane]

The most common cause for deaths like these is poisoning from chlorine or chloramine. As the tank had just been set up, and the water not aged first, I am guessing that these chemicals had not been driven off.
It may have also just been bad luck that your water company "flushed" the municipal water system with chemicals that day.
This is a huge problem here in the WDC area (as folks learned at CatCon). For this reason I try to keep water changes to Saturday or Sunday when Fairfax Water is closed and thus not adding chemicals.
When you see these signs treat immediately with a double dose of Prime and add some aeration.
-Shane

[Narelle]

Thank you for the help Shane!

I did overdose prime when I set the tank up and let it run a little while (I don't recall how long, at least half an hour) with the filter on to disperse it before seeding the filter or adding the cats. On your recommendation, I added a double dose of prime yesterday in addition to the strong airstone I had already added.

Today my Pseudomystus is still spinning, so I will be doing at least one 50% water change. She does seem to have at least figured out how to hide in the PVC pipes, which makes me feel much better than originally when she spent the daytime swimming (and spinning) aimlessly around the tank.

I tried to feed the cats last night and offered garlic soaked Ken's Earthworm Pellets and shelled peas. I see that one half pea is still in there, but the rest seems to have been eaten. I would assume it was probably the healthy cat, though.

Is there anything else I can do to help her? I am concerned that the longer this goes on, the less likely she will be to recover.

[Shane]

It is really hard to save fish that are spinning as there is almost nothing you can do other than what you have done. The key seems to be adding the Prime within minutes of noting the behavior.

If you do a water change be sure to replace the removed water with water from an established tank. Do not add more tap water or you could compound the problem.

-Shane

[racoll]

Another possible cause would be domestic products such as flyspray, hairspray, other aerosols, cleaning products, detergents, etc getting into the tank or onto any of the aquarium equipment. Is the bucket/hose for fish-only use? Could someone else, such as a cleaner or a child used them inappropriately?

[Narelle]

Hey, thank you both for the help! Sorry it's been awhile since I've updated.

I've named my spinning catfish "Dizzy" because she must have been with all that spinning!

I did water change before I saw your response about established water, Shane, but I overdosed prime with each change. I do think excess chlorine was likely the cause, or at least a contributing factor. I found out later that there had been a busted main pipe in the water company's lines so I would assume they would have flushed the system after the repair, and it was right about that time.

The cats got a few water changes and plenty of live food to keep them full and healthy.

On a trustworthy LFS's recommendation, I tried Microbe-Lift Artemiss, but the cats didn't seem to like it so I put a ton of carbon in the filter, but couldn't do a water change right away and sort of forgot that I hadn't?

Then I went out of town for a week and left them with some live blackworms and ghost shrimp and had someone instructed to very lightly feed pellet food just one day in the middle of the trip. I never did make sure the Artemiss made it out of the tank before I left, so it is possible there were trace amounts in the water the whole time I was gone.

I came home to normal, non-spinning catfish with very full bellies!

I will still be keeping an eye on them to make sure she doesn't start up again, but I think "Dizzy" is finally done with being dizzy all the time. Thanks again for all the help!

(I got these two female P.siamensis to attempt a breeding project with my existing male in my new, soon to be set up 150g, so I'll be making a post detailing my plans for that in the very near future!)

[bekateen]

Wow! That's wonderful news.Congratulations.