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Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 20:09
by raglanroad
Mike_Noren wrote:
raglanroad wrote:easy for you to say after you reword them with your own oversimplifications and inaccuracies, and then leave them strewn about.
Yes it is easy for me to say, because I have no fricking clue what your point is, or even if you have one. Do you?
I think perhaps that it's not that helpful to your understanding, if you insist on changing my points, e.g. from "Researchers are said to often lack funding to get proper sampling done", and "scientists may not know the fish they study", to "Lazy researchers are to blame".

I think you are intelligent enough to realize that much of what you tried to put on me in your previous post was solely YOUR invention. Now that doesn't really help with your understanding, does it ?

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 21:45
by Mike_Noren
raglanroad wrote:I think perhaps that it's not that helpful to your understanding, if you insist on changing my points, e.g. from "Researchers are said to often lack funding to get proper sampling done", and "scientists may not know the fish they study", to "Lazy researchers are to blame".
Really? I can't tell, because I find it impossible to decipher your posts. To my ivory tower scrotum it seems you're just spraying randomized deconstructivist statements:
raglanroad wrote:Thanks, don't want to climb the scrotum poles in the Ivory Tower. It needs to go down. Better to just follow whatr is absolutely necessary, and do the barcoding better ( through getting proper capture locale fish )than other analyses that have been done. Not perfect, just better.
Considering that you apparently are not trying to say that barcoding is infallible, morphology is useless, ichthyologists are lazy bums who buy fish off the market, museums peddle in stolen goods, and that it is too difficult to deposit specimens at museums, maybe you could try to clearly articulate what the point you're trying to make is?

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 22:04
by raglanroad
Yes. Creating a strawman argument and putting it in the other's mouth is not the way to go, IMO, if you would like to learn. How's that ?

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 22:12
by raglanroad
'Scuse me, David Suzuki is on the line. Says your caulking is old. Wait..there's more..get back to you later.I hope you've learned your lesson; we won't have to mention this again.

gotta go..Dr. Suzuki needs some help.

try to relax and not take everything so hard. it's causing you to hold resentments.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 22:36
by racoll
As i said before raglanroad, please be completely unambiguous in what you are trying to get across. I have no idea of the points you are trying to make. It might make sense in your head, but not in anybody elses.

People will soon get tired of this and not contribute, and to avoid any ambiguity of my part here, that means me.

Your scathing criticism of the current scientific community is based on what? Yes, there may be misidentified specimens in the collections, but knowledge moves on, and these mistakes can be corrected.

Have you even been to an ichthyology department in a museum or university, or met any curators or scientists? What evidence do you have to be so critical and insulting of such people? Please, name some names.

Regarding the "elite". What do you propose, that every John Doe or Joe Public can go and write a species description and take a few pictures? It takes years of study to become trained in systematics and evolutionary science.

The current system of description, nomenclature and voucher specimens is not perfect, but it works.
raglanroad wrote:As Heiko and others have noted, many or most museums have mislabeled fish as altum. so as you say, one must hunt through museums and curators to find a real altum and coinciding with that, a non-dink who has a brain. That sucks. It's an impediment. Do you suppose the dinks send their specimens to any old requesting members from the great unwashed public ?

So doing a proper barcoding becomes, in practical terms, a project dependant upon the whims of a possible dink who has the wrong fish in his collection.
No it doesn't. You don't need access to historical museum specimens to carry out a barcode study. You collect your specimen, and then identify it to the best of your knowledge based on the literature. Sure, one could look at the collections if one wanted, but hopefully by that point you would have a good idea of what has been misidentified.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 23:12
by raglanroad
racoll wrote:As i said before raglanroad, please be completely unambiguous in what you are trying to get across. I have no idea of the points you are trying to make. It might make sense in your head, but not in anybody elses.
You have offered not a whit of support for your bold assertion. You have no idea what makes sense in others' heads...unless you're..psychic !

OMG A true psychic !
People will soon get tired of this and not contribute
oooohh..prognisticator extraordinaire too.
and to avoid any ambiguity of my part here, that means me.
more for the rest. I can't truthfully say I'll miss your innacurate contributions.

Your scathing criticism of the current scientific community is based on what?
what scathing criticisms of the community ? You are making this stuff up.
Yes, there may be misidentified specimens in the collections, but knowledge moves on, and these mistakes can be corrected.
are you arguing for more mistakes ? hmmm..how do like that kind of silly retort, which you two have been trying to do to me ?

Have you even been to an ichthyology department in a museum or university, or met any curators or scientists? What evidence do you have to be so critical and insulting of such people? Please, name some names.
Oh, the old forum bullcrap. "I've been in the hobby for 185 years, I own a $40,000 koi. What do you have ?" Weakstuff, racoll. You should know by now, if you are so knowlegeable , that much of museum material is stolen. Anyone who does not volunteer to return stolen goods once they know about it, is the equivalent of a thief themselves..especially when they order the thefts and send an agent.

that's the history, and you can be in denial all you like about it, but it changes the facts not a whit.
Regarding the "elite". What do you propose, that every John Doe or Joe Public can go and write a species description and take a few pictures? It takes years of study to become trained in systematics and evolutionary science.
I never argued that every Joe or Jane can do it. One more of your ongoing set of strawmen put in my mouth. Very crude and distasteful way to converse.
The current system of description, nomenclature and voucher specimens is not perfect, but it works.
your point ? "Don't fix what ain't broken" ?
raglanroad wrote:As Heiko and others have noted, many or most museums have mislabeled fish as altum. so as you say, one must hunt through museums and curators to find a real altum and coinciding with that, a non-dink who has a brain. That sucks. It's an impediment. Do you suppose the dinks send their specimens to any old requesting members from the great unwashed public ?

So doing a proper barcoding becomes, in practical terms, a project dependant upon the whims of a possible dink who has the wrong fish in his collection.

No it doesn't. You don't need access to historical museum specimens to carry out a barcode study. You collect your specimen, and then identify it to the best of your knowledge based on the literature. Sure, one could look at the collections if one wanted, but hopefully by that point you would have a good idea of what has been misidentified.
Another demonstration of your inability to comprehend the most basic things. I don't want to look at their specimens. Nothing I have said would indicate that I do.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 16 Sep 2009, 23:13
by raglanroad
I do hope that if you feel the need, you two in bad humour will take your twaddle elsewhere, and not stay in order to offer further insults in an attempt to have the thread degenerate into a flame war, and have it closed.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 17 Sep 2009, 00:05
by racoll
raglanroad wrote:You should know by now, if you are so knowlegeable , that much of museum material is stolen.
Are you talking about ichthyology collections or museums in general? Nowadays you need to present a valid permit before depositing specimens in a collection, so they are known to be of legal origin.
raglanroad wrote:are you arguing for more mistakes ?
I am just interested in if you have any better ideas on how the system should work?
raglanroad wrote:I never argued that every Joe or Jane can do it.
Who do you trust to do it?

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 17 Sep 2009, 00:32
by raglanroad
racoll wrote:
raglanroad wrote:You should know by now, if you are so knowlegeable , that much of museum material is stolen.
Are you talking about ichthyology collections or museums in general? Nowadays you need to present a valid permit before depositing specimens in a collection, so they are known to be of legal origin.
"No officer, only my money, credit cards, and car are stolen. Nowadays, I don't steal more things, especially things that I might need a proof of purchase for".
raglanroad wrote:are you arguing for more mistakes ?
I am just interested in if you have any better ideas on how the system should work?
Why, do I seem the type to have an idea ?
raglanroad wrote:I never argued that every Joe or Jane can do it.

Who do you trust to do it?
That would be on a "need to know" basis. What's your need to know ?

Oh...more stolen goods at museums http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-140053156.html

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 17 Sep 2009, 02:03
by racoll
Okay, I've lost patience with this thread.

As they say on Dragons' Den, "I'm out"

Shame it hasn't been taken seriously, as there were some interesting issues.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 17 Sep 2009, 02:11
by raglanroad
Thanks for posting the announcement.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 17 Sep 2009, 07:41
by Mike_Noren
raglanroad wrote:I do hope that if you feel the need, you two in bad humour will take your twaddle elsewhere
OK.

Re: Philosophy, DNA, Morphology and Taxonomy

Posted: 17 Sep 2009, 09:55
by Jools
"ragalanroad" has now been banned for persistent trolling. This topic is now locked.