PlanetCatfish.com

That is the dilemma.
Wild fish can be bred. 50%(optimistically) make it alive to their final owners. Is that 50% of surviving new potential breeders going facilitate the species survival in captivity at the expense of continued survival of the wild fish? I think that the H. zebra population has been documented sufficiently to prove that over fishing has endangered the wild stocks.
If we don't buy those smuggled in, they will die. If we buy smuggled fish, we perpetuate the bio-piracy of these species. The smuggled fish will be bought no matter how conscientious most of us may be. Only Draconian enforcement will significantly stop this and once established, those policies tend to become generalized to less endangered species which are currently banned.
The situation is a poster child for Brazil to take whatever measures she feels fit to preserve their national natural resources and it doesn't take much imagination to see the policies becoming so extreme and extended to all her OTF(ornamental tropical fish) as to be equivalent to the Venezuelan situation which has a different basis but has had a similar effect on the OTF trade that could become the new Brazilian reality. That could become, no wild Brazilian fish may be exported.
I don't have the answers but I don't see this situation working out to the benefit of the aquarium hobby as a whole.

Hi,

..in chronological order:

Why we should buy wild caught fishes is simple, it's a very important income for thousands of poor people and few rich people but they are depending on each other, it needs to be regulated if it shall works so without laws and rules there would not be any WC fishes in any aquarium's in the future and the poor people will just get more poor.

You´re absolutely right on that one. And it wasn´t my intention to declare any importing of WC fish to be a bad thing. I was more refering to the question why WC fish "need" to be smuggled out of the country (turning a lot of poor, by upright people into criminals!) while we can breed them in (presumably) sufficient numbers provided the effort is "paying off" (again, I define "paying off" as yielding enough money to more or less sustain a bunch of aquaria dedicated to breeding catfish)?
Something like a "fairtrade" for fish and/or controlled, sustainable fishing habits would probably the best solution.
And I would happily pay a few euros more per fish if I knew these stem from fair treating of the fishers and their fishing grounds.

Having said that, I somewhat do understand the strict actions of IBAMA: even the wish to employ such a fairtrade would probably demand breaking the old habits by first cutting off the "lifeline" to install a new system. No one knows, of course, if this is what IBAMA intents to do.

And then about Larry and TwoTankAmin:
It´s absolutely tempting to get a bunch of H. zebra to directly start breeding with. And it´s probably correct that those fish exported are lost anyways. However, imagine living in a "perfect world" where not a single of these smuggled fish would be sold in Europe, Asia or America. The fish already at the importers might then eventually die, as Larry pointed out. But: no additional stock would be ordered, then. That would result in the loss of a single shipment, while "saving" those fish from death at the importers would doom countless additional specimen, because it creates a market.

I don´t believe that there really is a solution to this problem, since in the end it´s a moral question every single one of us has to answer for him/herself.
For myself, the simple guideline is "not all that´s possible should be done".

What I do see, however, is a moral obligation for all of us capable of breeding these catfish to try to sustain as many species as possible in our aquaria.

Cheers, Sandor

I definitely support all captive breeding efforts and if simply refusing to buy any of the illegal fish could be enforced well enough to prevent further smuggling , I could live with the destruction of these currently available fish. This just isn't what will happen, these fish will be sold and Brazil is likely to crack down of the exports of all their fish. The number of Brazilians who make much of their living catching OTF are too few for the Government to be overly concerned about depriving them of their livelihood.

I still need more wild Discus and I don't appreciate anything illegal going on with one group of fish that could conceivably be extended to these other non-endangered fish.

First I would want to ask "taksan" for an apologize that I didnt thought the problem with smuggling of fishes out of Brazil not was any large problem, but I dont change my morale values when coming to break the laws.

For a few years ago the problem was not so big and I thougth it was almost the same today, but after some research among my contacts I recieved some really bad information; the smuggling have increased incredible and under the season for Hypancistrus zebra which is now there are aproximate 500 species smuggled from Altamira each week. The authoritys is trying to stop the smuggling but have difficulties to succeed, the smugglers use different companys and so on to avoid to be discovered, IBAMA have only succeeded to stop a few of these occasions.

With these high numbers smuggling out from Altamira each week will without any doubts hurt the wildstock of H. zebra and it's fully possible to drive this species to extinct if we let it continue.

I would want to encourage all people around the world coming in contacts with companys dealing with smuggled fishes to not buy any of these, second to report to the authoritys which companys that deals with smuggled fishes.

What many gready people and even aquarist's not is aware of is, if we dont care and take distance from these activitys you can be sure of that in the future the authoritys will do it for us; in a near future I am sure of that new laws will come that forbid all trade of wildcaught fishes and all other WC animals, our hobby will no longer atract so many new people and all the business and we aquarist's will die slowly until it's just a fring left of dedicated hobbyist's keeping the few left species of fishes that still is allowed to sell...like goldfishes, guppy's etc. Then of course it will always be a black market for smuggled fishes for a few people that afford to pay the price and keep them out from authoritys.

In the end, people in the rich countrys will make the poor people just poorer as usual due to our low morales allowing this to happen, dont just think for the moment...think what will happen in the long term.

Janne

Well these topics always go some strange (bad) way...

Taksan, if you see Brasil as the bad one, maybe you should consider the following things!
Brasil is an emerging (it has been for a while), highly dependant on rich country for its economics...
You said that many Pseudacanthicus are being sold for eating... well I found it a good point..hopefully those people still have something to eat... but you are right WE should protest...and have these people stop eating these so they can export for the ornemental trade...

Brasil want to protect some of its interest and save it for its own population...well good thing...better than what has been done in Africa were nature exploitation is only made for export and the native people are left with nothing to eat and very little money because they are being exploited by foreign ( usually from Rich countries) companies...

You get mad at the forest, natural habitat destruction...I get mad at it too...but don't get mad at the wrong man...

Petrobras is not on Brasilian hand...it belongs to a famous oil company of a rich country...
Palm culture...Palm oil is being exported world wilde to product comestible use sold in Rich Country..even in Australia and probably food you are eating daily without noticing...it is usually listed (when listed) as vegetables fat...

Corruption: sure there is a lot in Brasil...but do you sincerely believe that is just a problem there... it is a problem everywhere...look in Alaska for exemple...

So you are mad at the IBAMA and doubt their willing or capacity to do something...trust me they are doing their best to prevent but like any environemental agencies...they usually get a small budget and are working hard...but the number of employees isn't enough to cover a country as big as Brasil...

So next time you fill your car with gas, or eat a cake or what ever bought at the local store...ask yourself where does it come...and if you, by the way you are living, are not doing any type of harm to the nature...and if you don't contribute in a way to the destruction of the amazonian forest...
Cheers
Yann

This debate is ridiculous I couldn't care less about IBAMA or anything they do which indeed was the whole point of my original post (which seems to have been lost) is that whatever IBAMA do it will not have any effect on the ability of people to source fish that was my point ...period ! ....which has now been made about something else.
But If you are going to make sweeping statements it might help if you checked your facts first for example Petrobras is 100% Brazilian owned with a majority share being owned by the Brazilian government itself it doesn't belong to "famous oil company of a rich country".