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The description is by Valenciennes in 1840. Is there any chance the contrast of the spots has evolved significantly during the 170 years til present time?

Haavard Stoere wrote:The description is by Valenciennes in 1840. Is there any chance the contrast of the spots has evolved significantly during the 170 years til present time?

Well, I'd say about the same chance as the precise contrast of the spots being the sole characteristic defining the species...

Jools

Haavard Stoere wrote:I am just speculating, but could the black color be the adult coloration, and the more spottet the subadult coloration? Examples of this could be L65 and also the Pseuda Christophe bred a year ago.

It could be possible, does the description mention the size of the specimen? In the absence of any detail however I'd be inclined to assume it was a larger fish simply because they're more likely to be caught at that time.

Jools

To further confuse things!

http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/image_lis ... l=&museum=

Jools

But neither of those fish are listed as "from Guyana", and the species name of the supposed P. serratus is prefixed by a question mark when clicking on the link.

--
Mats

fisrt answer from Yves Fermon : thanks, but check it with the Geneva's Museeum or with Yann... so, I did with Yann...

he will ask Sonia Fisch Mueller and Raphael Covain about it... he will give news here in a few days... (or weeks )

Jools wrote:To further confuse things!

http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/image_lis ... l=&museum=

Jools

The fish on the above picture seems to be an L024. That fits if it comes from Rio Tocantins. L024 used to be referred to as P. cf. serratus.

Haavard Stoere wrote:

Jools wrote:To further confuse things!

http://acsi.acnatsci.org/base/image_lis ... l=&museum=

Jools

The fish on the above picture seems to be an L024. That fits if it comes from Rio Tocantins. L024 used to be referred to as P. cf. serratus.

I know, but I'd have rather expected more from ACSI. Anyway, also just wanted to point out that I'm not avoiding doing this change, just that it is actually quite a lot of work and I would like to have all the facts first.

Jools

For me the discussion in itself is valuable, since both you and Christophe have showed me material I haven`t seen. I am a bit hung up on these plecos these days. What you do with the profile in CateLog at this point is nothing I am concerned about. Personally I would create a profile called Pseudacanthicus sp. `Peru`, and let P. serratus be without pictures for the time being, but that is not important. When more real and confirmed information and pictures are available I am sure CateLog will be the first internet site with the correct information.

Do we have many members in Suriname, Guyana or French Guyana? Maybe someone could just walk down from their house to the harbour with a camera and settle this It would be as easy as me documenting a haddock or wrasse. Maybe not quite the same, but at least the principal is the same.

Haavard Stoere wrote:...since both you and Christophe have showed me material I haven`t seen...

in fact, I just translated a document I didn't know either...

for the people living in Guyane : does anyone know Fabien Naneix ? he's a Frenchie Teacher who took his chance during 5 years in French Guyana for his first job. And as he's a passionata of fishes, reptiles, flowers and photographs, he may help us...

I sent him a private message on AquAgora but he's only occasionnal member... I'll give you news.

his site : http://www.agaankoy.com/ mainly based on cichlid's, flowers and amphibians... but stilll beautiful pictures... and french comments

Hi there,

Fabien Naneix replied to my question. Here is the translation :

"I don't have lots of raw data about this fish. It's known around Maripasoula (Maroni), but very few people have collected it (only 2-3 specimen captured and scientifically conserved). On the other hand, local populations (Businenge people) know it and say it's captured all along the Maroni. They call it "Baaka waawa" (Black waawa) and say it's not so often captured. It seems it's a seasonal fish for capture as it lives deep in the river. But for the local fishermen every seasonal fish live deep in the river bed a part of the year.

Friends of mine told me they captured it very far away down stream of the unique known collecting location, as far as around St Laurent du Maroni. To coroborate this, my girlfriend saw a few of them when going on the fish market (in St Laurent du Maroni). I feel confident about the ID she did. This wouldn't be the first time that a fish known from Upper Maroni came to be "discovered" down stream on the same river.

Based on the picture of Atlas des poissons d'eau douce du Guyane française and the descriptions of my fishmen friends, this is a whole body black fish, with blue eyes and very strong hooked odontodes on the whole body."

I hope this helps...

So the fish don`t match the original description as Jools pointed out. Maybe this means we have an undescribed black pseudacanthicus with very precice locations over large areas, and P. serratus is a ghost

Hi!!

Raphael Covain who had been on several trip in low French Guyana in the region of Antecum pata told me there are rather rare.
Adults have a shiny plaint black colouration.
No idea on the colour of the different phase of the juvies
Cheers
Yann

It would appear a good bet that larger specimens keep the spots...

I agree! We are at least talking about two species, or maybe even more.

Could the real Hypostomus serratus be extinct? With all the thousands of species available to find in the 1800s how come they found something living really deep that was really rare, that can`t be found today? There is something strange here I think. I feel like going on a fishing trip.

The individual in the drawing is rather large I think. The blackish ones can`t be H. serratus.

I have acquired a copy of the original description and will add a picture from it. I've moved the other species to be P. sp. "peru" as suggested. So, I think we can retire this interesting thread.

Jools

Superb as always Jools