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Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 03 Aug 2011, 21:05
by wrasse
The other thing about visiting a shop in person is... you can pick the individual fish you want to buy. If you want half a dozen corys you can choose the individuals. Also, as a regular customer you can build a relationship with the retailer, which I think is invaluable.

From the retailers side, mail-order can expand their market, in a huge country like the USA its probably a good idea. But they are vulnerable to complaints, such as... the fish were dead on arrival, they died after a day, etc. Its all difficult to prove, more so if they live far away. A bit sickening if they leave the shop in fantastic health. So is it worth the trouble?
A retailer like most people, doesn't want an argument but at the same time they don't want their goodwill taken advantage of. I imagine it only takes one crappy customer to spoil what would otherwise be a good day. Fortunately most people are reasonable... (-: :- 8-} =))

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 04 Aug 2011, 10:28
by Jools
RickE wrote:I suppose there is also the concern that if it became usual practise for even less common species, online selling would reduce everything to the status of ' I decided that's what I want, now let's see who's got it cheapest'. Which I think is the way most people shop on the internet. And the answer is probably Amazon.
I don't think that's really true. I shop online becuase I can do it in the evening, or at a time to suit me, becuase it saves me travel and it is quicker. I can checkout several retailers quickly. I buy online even if it's a little more expensive and I can buy from a particular retailer. I also use online to find things not available to me locally.

I think a lot of people are learning that buying quality delivers value in the same way as it does in the offline world. For example, I've bought external filters on eBay before (new) and had a lot of trouble with missing parts (being accused of lying that they were missing). I recently bought one from zooplus and it arrived damaged. They had a new replacement one out to me before the courier arrived to pickup the damaged one. Very easy. Certainly I do not buy on price alone online unless it's way cheaper >20% say.

In the future I think customers will become increasinly sophisiticated when making the choices of who to buy from online and price will not be the leading factor. You'd just need to be competitive and not way out cheapest - I think that holds even more truck with livestock.

So, I think quality fish and service will win the day off or online.

Jools

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 04 Aug 2011, 10:42
by Jools
wrasse wrote:The other thing about visiting a shop in person is... you can pick the individual fish you want to buy. If you want half a dozen corys you can choose the individuals. Also, as a regular customer you can build a relationship with the retailer, which I think is invaluable.
Totally agree. Although some of the video link stuff I was talking about would address that to a degree. However, in short, you can't beat a bunch of friends getting together and hitting a few LFS and that, online, is way, way off.

The point about building a relationship is a good one, but that can be done remotely. Actually, one of my main points is the business model I am championing is to do both offline and online. Sure, go visit the shop when you can, but wouldn't you rather spend £15 on a courier for fishes you've seen a video of than spend all of a rainy day driving for 8 hours, burning £80 of fuel? I'd do the latter once in a while to meet up with friends, but just for those "must have" corys?
wrasse wrote:From the retailers side, mail-order can expand their market, in a huge country like the USA its probably a good idea. But they are vulnerable to complaints, such as... the fish were dead on arrival, they died after a day, etc. Its all difficult to prove, more so if they live far away. A bit sickening if they leave the shop in fantastic health. So is it worth the trouble?
Your average offline LFS will have plenty stories of good fish going to bad homes. I am not sure the online sale of fish makes it much different. Full refund for dead fish if photo emailed back to store is how I'd deal with it. It's crap, but that happens. As noted above many LFS are crap at customer service, I think these incidents would be much more isolated if they were better. Again, sole trader synodrome, e.g. "everyone else is an idiot and I'm always right". Customers can be idiots too, of course, but it's how you handle them. If someone's not up for that part of it, then running a shop online or offline, might not be the fun ride they thought.

Anyway, I go back to the point that it's not offline versus online. In the same way it's not DVD versus cinema. Offline and online LFS could be better in most cases.

Jools

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 04 Aug 2011, 11:04
by Jools
retro_gk wrote:Using Amazon and Aquabid as starting points, I feel the future of online stores is perhaps in the hands of a third party entrepreneur, who acts as a content aggregator and provides an interface for sellers and buyers.

Rather than wait for individual stores to get their acts together, it might make more sense for a software developer to put together a web/mobile platform where sellers can upload information about their goods via a simple interface, and have it linked to fish databases. Sellers need not be restricted to stores, open it up to hobby breeders, as an alternative to ebay. The software could do the job of making suggestions to buyers (buy rams from breeder x, diamond tetras from store y and Entomocorus from wholesaler a) and even help sellers with packing and shipping fish. A dedicated pick up and drop off service could probably be arranged in the UK. Just tossing ideas about.
Tried that (maybe too early) - anyone remember watermart? A spectacular failure.

To a degree this is already in place (eBay, too general. Aquabid, sorely lacking in features, generic shopping cart solutions everywhere) but the model focusses on sellers. I'm proposing something focussed on buyers and brand loyalty with repeat business the key where an online presence improves the offline (B&M) and vice versa.

What, I think, will happen in the UK is something of a hybrid. Someone like Maidenhead doing online properly as I outline. Thus the franchise model is augmented by a "best in show" online presence funded by the group and availining itself of the groups buying power. Say the group has 100 stores, £50 per store per month delivers the ability to invest £60K/year in said online offering. You open a franchise, you pay your £50 pcm, you get the online presence, back this off with a corporate CRM & inventory management and you're MOTORING. Dominos Pizza (UK) is a great example of this model.

BUT! You open this up to any LFS who wants to pay £50 pcm for the privelidge, then you lose the brand and you never gain the buying power.

Great discussion this!

Jools

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 04 Aug 2011, 14:23
by Shane
Anyway, I go back to the point that it's not offline versus online. In the same way it's not DVD versus cinema. Offline and online LFS could be better in most cases.
I see this as a "hunter" (online) vs "gatherer" (B&M) thing. The hunter is usually looking for a specific product and online shopping is great for this. I think that is one reason why dry goods do so well online. Needing a heater, filter, or algae tabs is pretty targeted. Back to the Kindle/Amazon.com example, if I want the new G.R.R. Martin novel it is just a couple of clicks and I have it. Hunter shopping, as stated above, also pairs very well with making price comparisons.

Gathering is very different altogether and is best done by visiting an actual store. Despite the best efforts of programmers at Amazon, their "recommendations" function does not facilitate gathering very well. I am more likely to find an interesting new fantasy novel browsing the shelves at Borders Books than using Amazon.
Same for fish. If I want 6 L XXX online shopping is great. However it can't replace coming across a shipment of "assorted wild corys" and finding some real gems amongst them nor finding something you had never seen before, never thought about keeping, and just have to have now that you have seen them.

I did a little research, and guess what... men are the big online shoppers. They buy more frequently, spend more money and make online shopping decisions in 2/3s the time women do. Still a bit of hunter in us despite technological domestication.
http://dailyinfographic.com/men-vs-wome ... nfographic

-Shane

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 04 Aug 2011, 14:42
by Jools
Shane wrote:Despite the best efforts of programmers at Amazon, their "recommendations" function does not facilitate gathering very well.
Yeah, but that's because they don't (and can't) manage a community to make recommendations. About the best Amazon et al can do is, when you look at some specific thing, the "people who looked at this also looked (or bought) this" comes good. Here's a simple example of what having community data does, if you are posting all the time in a forum and commonly getting replies (maybe even machine detectable positive replies) from forum member X and Y. What if then, it turns out member X lives in the same country (or meets some other unifying criteria). So, let's make some recommendations on what member X is buying. It becomes group hunting which is not far off targeted gathering.

And don't get me wrong, I'm all for the offline LFS tour, but if I could, I would spend a lot more money that I spend on fuel on fish instead. I don't see travel getting cheaper anytime soon.

This may start a whole new thread, but does anyone else find that contaminants are really becoming rare these days?
Shane wrote:I did a little research, and guess what... men are the big online shoppers. They buy more frequently, spend more money and make online shopping decisions in 2/3s the time women do. Still a bit of hunter in us despite technological domestication.
http://dailyinfographic.com/men-vs-wome ... nfographic
Great work! I wonder what the ratio of male to female fish store visitors is...

Jools

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 06 Aug 2011, 09:22
by sidguppy
but does anyone else find that contaminants are really becoming rare these days?
of I can inlude "for the last 10 years at least" with "these days", I so agree with you 100% on this........

great discussion btw.
I can follow Shane's point though, even if we skip the contaminants.

browsing a store, especially one that isn't too shy to stock rares can lead to surprise aquisitions and even a new succesful fish in the tank or hobby

a few examples of my own:
Dutch store in my area (about 20 miles from here). I was on my way from Marc and decided to make a bit of a roundaboutr and visit a store I hadn't seen in over a decade.
some of the fish weren't that good, most were and to my surprise over half of their "Platydoras costatus" turned out to be Orinocodoras eigenmanni! now I got a friend who had 3 but was looking for more anbd we couldn't find em anywhere.
I brought home a group for him.
file this under contaminants ;)

another example:
I drove to a small village near Frankfurt (4 hour 1 way drive, don't ask about the petrol....) to pick up Synodontis brichardi and especially Raiamas christyi. I entered a store that for me is nothing less than Tuth Ank Amuns tomb.......
picked up Labeo variegatus and Gobiocichla wonderi as well, spotted Amphilius (!) in his showtank and an old Garra congoensis and have been pestering the guy who runs the show of importing those 2 species, he's working on it.
these weren't contaminants, but I never expected to see those fish.
I could easily have spend 700 euro's on fish in there and I would have if I had a fish room........
will be back there.

I could never have that experience from online shopping live fish.
I do got some very bad experiences there.....expensive too. ordering 7 Bathybates to have them arriving with white spot and bacterial infections that no way ever could have developed in the 1 night journey and the owner giving me the finger after I asked for a ferund (5 out of 7 died within 24 hours, 400 euro's down the hatch).
needless to say I hung him out to dry on every forum I could find, but it's not helping with the online shopping world
this was a LARGE name a very well known shop mind, not some obscure con from nowhere.

I've heard many stories since, mostly from his store, but not always.

so if online shopping is the way, then quite a number of these shops including the more famous ones need to clean up their act pronto.

and hate to say it, but when it comes to arranging imports, be it through a shop or a joined up agreement from a bunch of hobbyists, but Africa is still one big money-pit where genuine honest traders are rare as hens teeth and the majority just take your money and make a runner.

if there's any place that really needs a dose of "getting in the 21st century" it is the online shopping world of anything related to Africa.
it'll take hard work and a lot of genuine acts not just intentions to have them get rid of that image.

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 06 Aug 2011, 20:01
by wrasse
Okay Jools so where are you going with this?

You've obviously put at lot of thought into this and you've mentioned 'franchise' and having talked to a couple of retailers. Are you going to orchestrate it? Would you look to introduce/ maintain a quality control?

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 12:27
by Jools
wrasse wrote:Okay Jools so where are you going with this?

You've obviously put at lot of thought into this and you've mentioned 'franchise' and having talked to a couple of retailers. Are you going to orchestrate it? Would you look to introduce/ maintain a quality control?
It's just something I keep current but in the back of my mind. Something of a "retirement project" that might be brought forward if I find myself on the dole anytime soon! I spoke to Maidenhead about it at a senior level, but they're, well, didn't see the advantage of it. I tried the model earlier on Planet ("watermart") but it proved to me that a global, catfish led model won't work. Has to be in country or region (like Amazon).

As to quality control, I think that follows the real world model. I mean, if you buy fish that look OK and they are not, then you don't use that retailer again, or use them with caution. So, I currently favour something that is store specific, but that does have the disadvantage of not allowing a search for a species across all retailers.

If something I really like comes along, we'll integrate with it, if not I may build it but I think its a few years yet and not while in my current real job. I do about 45-55 hours a week in that and current about 6-10 hours a week on Planet+AR. I think I'd need to take out about 6-8 months to build something really viable. So, I'd either need a major backer or some other injection of capital. The business model I had (not touched in over a year) estimated about 45K start-up + advertising and a 26 month breakeven point. That drops to a 3 month break-even point if in partnership with a larger chain...

Back to the here and now. I am pretty keen to do the QR code / LFS labels thing though. Then it's a small step to "I saw this fish for sale here" stuff. Then it's a small step to "I bought this fish, automatically add it to my cats"...

Jools

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 14 Aug 2011, 14:33
by Neo
Jools wrote:
Neo wrote:Jool have you been to Riverside in Stirling recently?
No, their second store is near Livingston in a garden center and it is good. Nice range of dry goods but the stock suffers from what Shane mentions in terms of it just being the same as the chains except nice Corys from breeders. Also, a new Dobbies (with aquatics) has opened next door and has, at present, nicer fish.

You should try Aquascene, Airdie (got Seweilla, Sawamba, Scleromystax and super cool Florida sunfish & Corydoras bicolor from them), Outside Inside Aquatics, Haddington (Entomocorus, various Ls, Synodontis contractus, bunch of nice smaller fishes) and the Maidenhead Aquatics on the M8 at Coatbridge has great range of dry goods and nice fishes. For some odd reason I bought a bunch of very well priced horse faced loaches from them.

Jools
I shall give a couple of those a try, its funny you said about the horse face loach, it is the only fish i would say I noticed that was unusual in Riverside that time I was up

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 28 Aug 2011, 03:37
by Sam
Fantastic debate people.. (*)

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 07 Sep 2011, 14:38
by retro_gk
On the topic of QRC based shopping; Virtual store in S Korea.

Re: 21st Century LFS

Posted: 07 Sep 2011, 15:15
by Jools
retro_gk wrote:On the topic of QRC based shopping; Virtual store in S Korea.
Now you're talking. When I first encountered QR stores, I thought about estate agents and requesting property schedules direct from the shop window. I also thought that Christmas shopping from billboard ads as I wait for public transport was also a winner.

In our context, imagine an LFS with a few metres of wallspace with all the spares and other things you might need that they don't stock (how often I have walked into an LFS to buy something and "it's out of stock until next Tuesday". I maybe don't mind waiting until next Tuesday, but I do begrudge the repeat journey.

So - would this work? Well, you get to buy the thing, you may get advice and service from the LFS. The retailer gets footfall, a cut of the online purchase and likely spend on other things in store too. And it all gets updated centrally on the "what you bought" server.

Now, expand that to livestock - really I think that's a great model.

Jools