PlanetCatfish.com

Viktor Jarikov wrote:this one is about 4-5 inches

Fish #2 Interesting shape...but hybrid

Viktor Jarikov wrote:Forgot to mention, the bigger galinae (?) has a somewhat deformed, assymetric head and mouth - birth trauma, injury, or something. Of course, I do not know, I got him only a month ago from a private owner.

Can I ask why you think this is S.galinae?

Richard B. was the first to suggest that in the original post "whats my cat?"
Jools agrees: see email thread:

Hi Viktor, The point I think is that S. galinae isn't itself genuine and is a
marketed form of S. eupterus. No idea if it is a hybrid or just
selective breeding, but I think it should be placed in S. euptera as a
manmade form (like a balloon variety). It is no new species having
been described also in grey literature I think. I would even go as far
as to place S. galinae in synonymy with S. euptera, but I am unclear
on how this works with hybrids. Cheers, Jools
---
Hi Jools, ...As Mats and Richard B. figured out, I have two euptera but I know the one Richard B. called S. galinae - that's the one you want, the bigger one. NB (!): There is a disagreement at this point (see the post) whether he is genuine or a hybrid euptera. Best wishes, Viktor
---
Hi Viktor, We might be interested in the pictures of what you are calling S. notatus and S. euptera. Both look like hybrids to me, the latter appears to be the thing described in Russia as S. galinae. Could I suggest you post a few pictures here and if they are new hybrids then we would like to use the pictures. I am ccing Mats who adds most of the pictures these days too so he knows what I've suggested. Cheers, Jools

The fish called galinae is a hybrid IMHO, but it has supposedly been described to science but most people seem to think this is highly dubious. (The same with helenae, which is a colour variant of nigrita or something similar - it is very pale or yellow & has been called banana cats, custard cats in UK shops)

The pic in seegars of 'Galinae' shows the abnormally blunt head.

Sorry I did not put the two threads together...I have to stop answering posts early in the morning. I know the hows and whys of the galinae, was just wondering how you (Victor) came to that conclusion, thanks for the explanation.

Birger

I had said to Viktor in the past that I though this might be a captive produced S. ocellifer - however, now I've had a better look at the pictures, I can see the dorsal fin shape and patterning isn't even close to what it should be, so I do now agree there's a hybrid in there somewhere.

Jools

Hi Jools, I may be wrong but for now I presume you are confusing two different fishes of mine - my latest email (which was the late, after-thought reply to your first email to me) was concerned with the fish I initially named longirostris and you said with an apparent certainty that it is an ocellifer, if I understood you correctly.

Yet, everyone else in the "what's my cat? post" called him a hybrid (although the more I am trying to learn here, the more I get confused to some degree about the important differences between genuine, genuine w/c, genuine captive bred, pure, hybrid, hybrid in n-th gereneration, hybrid bred to look like genuine, man-made hybrid, man-made variety, etc.). {{{{{{{Hi Jools, People in the forum seemed to agree that the one I called "longirostris" certainly looks like a hybrid to them. Do you still assert he is a genuine ocellifer? Viktor. Your latest reply: Depends what you mean by genuine. If you mean wild caught then no. He's probably a captive produced S. occellifer - possibly with hybrid parents. Cheers, Jools}}}}}}.

The photos of the "longirostris/ocellifer" are again below (same are in the whats my cat post). This is the one you indicated NO interest of getting/using the pics of. You only asked me to post here what I called notatus and the larger eupterus=the subject of this ongoing discussion (both I named wrongly, of course - I just had to name them something when sending the pictures). Best, Viktor.

Let's try to get the definitions cleared up. I'm not saying what I write here is the ONLY possible definition, so I'd wait for one or a few people to say "I agree with that" or "let's define X as A B C".

genuine:
A true species - matches what the label says it is.

genuine w/c
Genuine as above, which is captured in the wild - "W/C" means "wild caught".

genuine captive bred
Genuine as above, which has been bred by hobbyist or commercial breeder. This fish is NOT wild-caught. Captive bred is also often called "Tank bred".

pure
Not a hybrid, of pure origin. Both parents are the same species and/or variety.

hybrid
The parents are not the same species, creating a mixture of two different species.

hybrid in n-th gereneration
Hybrid species that has more than one generation of mixing in the heritage. At least one of the parents of this particular generation was a hybrid - and normally one assumes ALL generations are hybrids when using this term. Often this involves mixing hybrids with different species as the parents, to create an even more messed up offspring.

hybrid bred to look like genuine
A hybrid that is intentionally bred in a way as to make it look like a genuine species. The producer of this fish is trying to replicate key characteristics that identify the genuine species.

man-made hybrid
Not naturally occurring hybrid - a hybrid species produced in a laboratory/breeding facility. As far as I'm aware, with regards to Synodontis, ALL known hybrids are man-made.

man-made variety
This is usually referring to variants of fish that have been line-bred to fix some naturally occuring variation, such as longer fins (veiltail and such), "balloon body" or colour variants (albino or melanistics [all black/brown forms]). Goldfish is a good example here, where most of the fish you find in a LFS have one or more "alterations" to the natural form.

--
Mats

Mats, thank you for not sparing your time and fingers! Viktor

Mats - i agree with all the definitions & thank you for your efforts on this

MatsP wrote: pure
Not a hybrid, of pure origin. Both parents are the same species and/or variety.

hybrid
The parents are not the same species, creating a mixture of two different species.

Mats

Obviously, if one produces ofspring starting with 2 animals, of the same species, but another variety, the result will not be a hybrid, but the offspring will not be pure either

Anybody has a name for such, in my eyes unwanted, offspring?

Another, but fairly easily identifiable pseudo-decora - ie the valentine/valentiana.

This was actually labelled schoutedeni in the branch of a well-known chain over here

A slight variation of the often seen zebra syno / zebrinus

Bas Pels wrote:

MatsP wrote: pure
Not a hybrid, of pure origin. Both parents are the same species and/or variety.

hybrid
The parents are not the same species, creating a mixture of two different species.

Mats

Obviously, if one produces ofspring starting with 2 animals, of the same species, but another variety, the result will not be a hybrid, but the offspring will not be pure either

Anybody has a name for such, in my eyes unwanted, offspring?

I don't know of a name other than "crossbreed" or "crossbred" - this is the name used in cat and dog-breeding, where different variants are available as "purebreds", and crosses between these are called "crossbreeds", and normally not encouraged.

--
Mats

Bas Pels wrote: Obviously, if one produces ofspring starting with 2 animals, of the same species, but another variety, the result will not be a hybrid, but the offspring will not be pure either

Anybody has a name for such, in my eyes unwanted, offspring?

intra-specific hybrids

a bastard or mutt.

still a single species, but not of any variety anymore.
like a junkyard dog.

As far as I'm aware, with regards to Synodontis, ALL known hybrids are man-made.

Among my papers I have at least 2 in regards to Synodontis hybrids occuring in the wild among populations of southern Syno's, these naturally produced hybrids had a few of the same characteristic deformaties we see when picking out man made hybrids.

Birger

One more fake ornatipinnis.

One more fake ornatipinnis

Hmmmm - looks a little short in length as a quick observation point

Just a quick update on one of the previous posts (maybe particular to the UK, or primarily so) .

There seem to be a lot of beautiful little 1-2" SL multipunctata about at the moment but they have a white hard dorsal spine & are hybrids In every other respect they are identical. I had previously seen perfect hybrid copies where there were some small flecks of black in the white area of the dorsal. I have seen these hybrid forms in 2 branches of a well known chain & a small independant retailer all within 30 minutes of home so presume they are widespread through the UK. Some of these hybrids are not being offered cheaply either, so i post as a warning - if anyone wants genuine species, just a word of caution.

On the 'galinae' images please see my comments on:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/view ... 69#p184845

Does anyone here feel comfortable making an educated guess on the suspected lineage of the valentine syno hybrid? I purchased one of these hybrids a few months back thinking it was S.decora and now Im trying to figure out the max size of this fish. Any help would be much appreciated.

mata leao wrote:Does anyone here feel comfortable making an educated guess on the suspected lineage of the valentine syno hybrid? I purchased one of these hybrids a few months back thinking it was S.decora and now Im trying to figure out the max size of this fish. Any help would be much appreciated.

Popular thinking is that "valentine" is a decora x multipunctata hybrid. I have seen these at 8" SL so i suspect decora adult size. That said i have seen other types of hybrids labelled valentine too

Richard B wrote:

mata leao wrote:Does anyone here feel comfortable making an educated guess on the suspected lineage of the valentine syno hybrid? I purchased one of these hybrids a few months back thinking it was S.decora and now Im trying to figure out the max size of this fish. Any help would be much appreciated.

Popular thinking is that "valentine" is a decora x multipunctata hybrid. I have seen these at 8" SL so i suspect decora adult size. That said i have seen other types of hybrids labelled valentine too

Thank you very much for your help. The fish is nearly identical to the pic you posted of a valentine syno on page 5 of this thread. Ill try and snap a few shots of it soon just to be certain. Thanks again.

Richard,

Attached another pic of my hybrid. Should I add this to the catelog as a new hybrid?

Jools

Richard, I thought that decora x multipunctata hybrid is called jaguar because of the clouded spots it has. Is it the same as valentine?

is there a spot for these hybrids in cat-eLog with a collection of pics for id-ying?

Viktor Jarikov wrote:is there a spot for these hybrids in cat-eLog with a collection of pics for id-ying?

Look for Synodontis sp. hybrid

The catfish family Mochokidae

Jools wrote:Richard,

Attached another pic of my hybrid. Should I add this to the catelog as a new hybrid?

Jools

This variation is not in cat-e-log

Richard B wrote:

Jools wrote:Should I add this to the catelog as a new hybrid?

This variation is not in cat-e-log

OK, I've now added it.

Jools