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What went wrong?

Posted: 22 Aug 2008, 23:55
by Troender
Some months ago, I proudly got my hands on 8 Brochis multiradiatus. They were the fishes of my dreams, and I was really, really happy. As they were wild caught, I gave them the treatment I give all wild caugth fish, a treatment to get rid of parasites and illnesses they can have brought with them from the wild. I did this even though they had been in the pet shop for a while, and they had been doing very fine in the shop. They all looked very healthy, and ate with great appetite (wow, they can really suck in bloodworms!).
Here, they were placed in a 128 liter tank, together with 5 CW-06. With so many big cories (I count brochises as cories), I've been giving them very frequent water changes, 50 % several times a week. The water has been stored for a day before filling it into the tank, mostly because the water needs a lower PH, but also because I then can use cold water, and let the air heat it for me during the night/day. I use oak bark extract to lower the PH. I don't add anything else to the water, as there's no clorine in the water here.

Well, the story about my multiradiatuses started well, but it didn't last. One by one they started dying. Not all at the same time, but slowly, one by one. The last one died last wednesday. :( I can find no reason why they all died. The tank was a bit small, but I really kept up with water changes. I tested the water frequently (liquid test, pretty new ones, so they were not out of date either), to find if anything were wrong - whether the bioload was too big for the filter and the size of the tank. I could find nothing wrong. Nitrite and ammonia was 0. Nitrates, I can't actually remember, but probably not higher than 20 (I am keeping a lot of puffers, and they must have nitrates below 20, so I always get worried if anything is higher). So the filtration seemed to keep up with the bioload, and my water changes kept up with the nitrates. I changed the filtration during this period (from internal to external filter, with both running together in the tank until the external was well cycled). The tank is now filtrated by an Eheim Pro 2224, which really should be enough. The PH has been on 7 or a little lower. I've checked that the water in the tank and the water that is stored for the water changes has been the same. The KH is low, about 2, so it can be a little unstable PH. But I've never seen anything but a stable PH when I've been testing the water. BTW, the GH is 3-4.

While I was using internal filters, I used the diffusor, to be sure about the oxygen level would be enough. After changing to an external filter, I had to rely on the little movement on the surface to make enough oxygen. I don't have many plants either, mostly because the tank lacks lights (the tank doesn't have a cover yet, and that prevents me from putting a light on top of it. But it does get some daylight from the windows in the room). But the fishes started dying before I changed the filter.

There was no visible sign on the fishes that could tell me that they were ill. The only thing is that a few of them seemed a little thin - but not all of them. They just got calmer and stopped eating before dying. At feeding time, they came around, looking for the food, but they didn't eat it. At the time I found a thin fish dead, I tried to give them a cure against IPs, using Flubenol 15. That thing usually works very well. I've also tried medicating them against bacterial infection (First Esha Hexamita, which takes both bacteria and flagellates. Later on Esha 2000 which takes bacteria. Neither of the meds kill the filter bacteria). I've opened one of the dead fishes, and it was surprisingly empty inside. But I have no idea what they are supposed to look like inside, so I really don't know if it was wrong or not. The wonderful barbels were intact too. There were no wearing down on them. The tank has sand on it's bottom, BTW. There were no ragged fins either.

The temperature has varied a little bit. At first it was kept at 24 degrees celcius. But when the summer came, I pulled out the plug of the heater, like I do in all cory tanks. But I think the temperature has been about the same anyway. All other of my house has been terribly hot, but that room stays in a sensible temperature. Besides, the cories started dying before summer came.

The strange thing is that the CW-06 that has been living together with them, never have been ill, any of them. They are very healty, and used to love the company of the multiradiatuses (they got sad after the multis died out, but are in better mood now, after getting new tankmates). They show no problems at all. If there was anything wrong with the water, or if there were som contagious disease, surely I would see anything on them too? But it's been only the brochises dying, and for no apparent reason, other than a few of them were a little thin.

They were fed frozen bloodworms, freezedried tubifex (only occationally, because it's fattening), different kinds of catfish food (with proteins in it - not the kind for herbivore catfishes: JBL NovoTab, Tetra Tabimin, Tetra wafer mix (not much of this one), some catfish food from a local shop), shrimp pellets, sometimes a home made shrimp mix. That's all I can remember right now.

This is all information I can think of that can be of any interest to clear this up. I am really, really sad about the whole thing, especially since I've tried to get this species for a very long time. And when I got them, they exceeded any expectations I had. I just loved them! I would love to get some new ones, but won't start on the job until I know why my brochises died. I don't want this to happen again. So, does anyone have any idea why my brochises would stay alive in my house?

Re: What went wrong?

Posted: 30 Aug 2008, 23:27
by Troender
*bump*

Re: What went wrong?

Posted: 31 Aug 2008, 17:42
by MatsP
Unfortunately, very hard to say (at least without having the fish at hand and doing autopsy on it). My guess would be some sort of parasite - even if you didn't find any inside the fish - perhaps one of those that attack the gills, preventing the fish from getting enough oxygen.

However, this is just conjecture, and this is also the reason I didn't write anything in the first time of reading your post.

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Mats

Re: What went wrong?

Posted: 31 Aug 2008, 22:47
by Troender
The initial medication I gave them when I bought them, should have taken care of parasites. They were medicated with Flubenol 15 twice (or maybe also a third time, after they started dying - I can't remember for sure). And the Flubenol were not underdosed. They were also medicated with Esha Hexamita, which is supposed to take care bacterial infections, as well as Hexamita. So they should have been free of any "normal" illness or parasites after the treatment I gave them (there are some illnesses that can't be killed with normal fish meds, like fish tuberculosis, but I can't get any of them to fit my dying fish). I always does this with wild caught fish, as they always carry their load of parasites when you get them. I also tried to medicate two almost dying fish with JBL Furanol (contains nifurpirinol), not in the tank, but outside (as the med kills filter bacteria). One got better for a few hours, and then died in a day or so. So it was only talking about prolonging their suffering. So the problem is, they were medicated for all parasites and bacterial infections as fishes "normally" get. And there has been no problems with their tanks buddies, my CW-06. It looks to me like the multiradiatus is sensible to something that the other fishes aren't. That's the best theory I can come up with myself. Or maybe they have some extreme need that most cories and brochises don't have? But what can it be. Is there anyone out there that has experience with this fish, and can tell me about their knowledge - what can go wrong with them, and what is needed to succeed. I am used to keeping cories and brochies, but this is the only fish I haven't had success with (except a group of very ill Brochis splendens I once bought - but they were clearly very ill. I haven't had problems with Brochis splendens after I got a new, well group. I even managed to save the life of one of the very ill fishes, and he is very well and happy now :mrgreen: ). So do you have any theories anyone? Anything I haven't thought of?

Re: What went wrong?

Posted: 01 Sep 2008, 00:46
by MatsP
It sounds like you have thought of everything - at least I can't add anything that I think you should have done.

I do however think that the symptoms indicate parasites, which is why I said that. Here are a few random theories that may or may not apply - most likely just going to add to the confusion! ;)

The only other thought would be that the particular fish you got were originally from a region that is outside of the recommended temperature range of 21-24 degrees C recommended in the Cat-eLog. Particularly if the fish are used to a cooler temperature, the higher metabolic rate that comes with being kept at higher temperature, and the fish not being able to eat enough to satisfy the metabolic rate. This DOES happen if you keep cold-water fish at higher temperatures - say you catch a Perch (Perca fluviatilis) in Norway or Sweden and keep it all year in an indoor tank [unheated, but at sort of 18-20+'C that we normally have in our houses]. Likewise, if the fish are kept cooler than they like to be, the metabolic rate will be low, and the fish shuts down it's eating to avoid it getting too fat. But I expect that is not the case - but I can't prove whether it is or isn't.

Another option is that at some stage (in your ownership, but more likely before) the fish has either had parasites or treated with medicaiton that cause scarring/deformation of some critical function in their body - and this would slowly cause them to starve to death.

A third option, which I have heard of in for example Loricariidae (plecos), is that some point in the import to Norway, the fish has been so starved that their body can't recover. No amount of feeding tasty food will make the fish eat.

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Mats